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CShephard53

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Want to explain how Jesus could walk on water and still be following God's laws of surface tension, gravity, and buoyancy?
Kindly show where in the Bible God states any laws of physics. If you cannot, we will conclude that either:
A. You cannot back your claim.
B. Your claim is false and untrue, and that physics laws are man-made.
or
C. You are rambling.
Any of the so called miracles that include bushes burning but not being consumed, turning snakes in to sticks and vice versa, changing the chemical make up of water into wine: H2O ---> C2H6O.
These are "illegal" activities even for a deity.
Show where it says, either by logic or in the Bible where God must follow man's laws. I don't believe I've ever seen physics in the Bible.
You would have Jesus be a law breaker, or worse, scofflaw.
No, you would, given your claims.

But you see, I do understand them. I know exactly what the author meant when he wrote Jesus turned water into wine. I know exactly what he meant when he said Jesus walked on the water or was born of a virgin... it isn't magic. It is wonder.
Claim of superiority.

When you open your mind to the real wonder of God, you will see there is no need for these tricks and sleight of hand explanations of magic and miracles.
You've got quite some nerve there. You think God needs tricks? You think God needs magic? God never uses those things. He uses real power that defies our understanding.
Sabbath laws? gleaning grain from the fields on the Sabbath
Providing food that was needed, not work. Would you have people not eat? Not drink? Not read?
Physical laws? walking on water, changing chemical make up of elements ( alchemy)
Again, where are these physical laws in the Bible?
Moral laws? allowing unclean women to touch him
Those are cleanliness laws, not moral laws. And breaking a cleanliness law does not mean that one broke THE law, especially if Jesus went through the things he had to to become clean again. I don't believe it says whether he did or didn't, do you? Nor do I see anywhere where cleanliness laws are still in practice due to Christ's death. Yeah, prior to His death he would have followed those laws. But please don't try an argument from silence here...
Legal law? refusing to answer to the authorities
Refusing to answer authorities? Where is this? And where does it say that when an authority figure asks a question it is law that an answer must be given?
God is not a man at all. God has no hands or eyes but OUR hands and eyes. God is not a being with free will or choice. God is, as Paul Tillich described, not a being but the ground of all being, existence itself; life, reality, truth... whichever absolute you wish to ascribe to all things.
Opinion, unbacked.
BTW... concepts do exist.
Only if they are proven beyond reasonable doubt to exist as valid concepts.
 
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CShephard53

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Semantic little devil, aintcha? Whether you wrote those words or not there are the specific examples of God (Jesus) breaking his own laws. That makes God a lawbreaker... by definition.


A man can not be born without a sperm permeating an ovum. Not in parthenogenesis, not in vitro, not anywhere except in an ignorant person's imagination. A far as I know, ghosts don't have male DNA.


Pentecost? It was tongues of fire, not a bird.
The baptism is the first mention by Mark that was Jesus was somehow different than others. The earlier part of the chapter is going on about John the Baptist, leading to this initial point of Jesus' ministry as the Son of God, declared so by the voice of God at the banks of the River Jordan.


Oh, You actually believe a ghost impregnated her? I don't. I am sure that either Joseph was the biological father or some other ... perhaps some Roman, or other Gentile who raped Mary.


Where is there life? Only in living things. Jesus was not alive until he was conceived.


No, it is saying his Son-ness is is declared, proven, evidenced (whatever word you prefer) by the resurrection... not by his existing since the beginning of time, not by his immaculate conception, not by the baptism and the declaration by the voice of God, not by his ministry and not by his death.... but by the resurrection!

Hmmmm. as to you non-magical question... I guess a dead man couldn't. Could he?



The reconciliation comes in Jesus ministry which doesn't begin until after puberty. (Remember he tells his mother, my time has not yet come... his ministry begins after the temptation in the wilderrness)

You still think God is a thing... we know that two things can not occupy the same space and time. God is not a thing... neither a man nor a ghost. (If you change your thinking just a little,,, substitute "Truth" for "God", (or Love, Mercy, Wisdom... ) you get... "Truth was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself"... hey! That's possible.. truth could be in someone even if a ghost couldn't!


Uh huh...


Orwell would be proud. Double speak is very difficult to respond to with anything other than a chuckle and a wag of the head.

BTW... concepts do exist.
By the way, KC, are you going to address my points, arguments, and evidence from my previous reply?
 
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Apollo Celestio

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You again ignore the culture. They placed extreme emphasis on memorization and accuracy.
Too true, you could say they did so much, that it almost separated them from God. "You honor me with your lips, but not your heart." They knew the law alright.. What can we know of God outside of the Bible, well, probably experiences in our own lives. Seeing him work within us and others, but it always goes alongside the bible. It doesn't really go against it. Going outside the bible usually leads to trouble I think. I don't have any sources to say this, but take a look at the world, and you'll see what I mean.
 
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CShephard53

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Too true, you could say they did so much, that it almost separated them from God. "You honor me with your lips, but not your heart." They knew the law alright.. What can we know of God outside of the Bible, well, probably experiences in our own lives. Seeing him work within us and others, but it always goes alongside the bible. It doesn't really go against it. Going outside the bible usually leads to trouble I think. I don't have any sources to say this, but take a look at the world, and you'll see what I mean.
For clarification, going outside the Bible for what?
 
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Tawhano

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KCDAD said:
Whether you wrote those words or not there are the specific examples of God (Jesus) breaking his own laws.
Excuse me but you stated a falsehood that I said Jesus was a lawbreaker and I asked you to verify that I said it. I said no such thing and I asked you to quote the post where you alleged I said it and again you could not. Your response was to quote passages out of the bible. You again fail to answer a simple question with an honest answer.
KCDAD said:
A man can not be born without a sperm permeating an ovum. Not in parthenogenesis, not in vitro, not anywhere except in an ignorant person's imagination. A far as I know, ghosts don't have male DNA.
So you can’t explain to me in your “no need for these tricks and sleight of hand explanations of magic and miracles” world that a ghost impregnated a woman? Why did you post that verse as evidence that Jesus was God if you don’t believe what it says?
KCDAD said:
Pentecost? It was tongues of fire, not a bird.
So it was an actual bird that landed on Jesus that made him God? You’re not making any sense. Whether it was like tongues of fire or a bird is not relevant; they both speak of the Spirit and you dodged my question as usual.
KCDAD said:
Oh, You actually believe a ghost impregnated her? I don't. I am sure that either Joseph was the biological father or some other ... perhaps some Roman, or other Gentile who raped Mary.
No I don’t think a ghost impregnated her. I asked you to provide me with evidence that Jesus is God and you provided this verse. Are you now saying that you supplied verses as evidence but that you reject them as truth? So in your view Jesus was more than likely an illegitimate child?
KCDAD said:
Where is there life? Only in living things. Jesus was not alive until he was conceived.
That doesn’t mean he became God at his conception and that verse didn’t say it either. You take far too many liberties in interpreting scriptures.
KCDAD said:
No, it is saying his Son-ness is is declared, proven, evidenced (whatever word you prefer) by the resurrection...
Which is what I said.
KCDAD said:
not by his existing since the beginning of time, not by his immaculate conception, not by the baptism and the declaration by the voice of God, not by his ministry and not by his death....
Which is not what I said.
KCDAD said:
Hmmmm. as to you non-magical question... I guess a dead man couldn't. Could he?
Then why did you post a verse about his resurrection if you don’t believe in it? I can’t understand why you are answering a question with verses you don’t believe are true. That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
KCDAD said:
The reconciliation comes in Jesus ministry which doesn't begin until after puberty. (Remember he tells his mother, my time has not yet come... his ministry begins after the temptation in the wilderrness)
What has his ministry got to do with him becoming God? Can I become God then if I start a ministry?
KCDAD said:
You still think God is a thing... we know that two things can not occupy the same space and time. God is not a thing... neither a man nor a ghost. (If you change your thinking just a little,,, substitute "Truth" for "God", (or Love, Mercy, Wisdom... ) you get... "Truth was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself"... hey! That's possible.. truth could be in someone even if a ghost couldn't!
Now I get it, you change words around to alter the message to fit your theology. So Jesus became God when Truth entered into him. How did this truth in him reconcile the world?
KCDAD said:
Uh huh...
Uh huh is right; I asked you to explain how Jesus was God and you quote scriptures which you believe are the product of an ignorant person's imagination as your answer.
KCDAD said:
Double speak is very difficult to respond to with anything other than a chuckle and a wag of the head.
Actually it was a line from John Lennon’s song Imagine.

So the summary of everything you said is that you provided evidence in the way of scriptures in which you believe to be the product of an ignorant person's imagination to answer my question. Not to mention that each verse in your opinion have Jesus becoming God at different times. How ridicules is that? So I ask you again please explain how did Jesus get to be a god in your theology?
 
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KCDAD

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Kindly show where in the Bible God states any laws of physics. If you cannot, we will conclude that either:
A. You cannot back your claim.
B. Your claim is false and untrue, and that physics laws are man-made.
or
C. You are rambling.
Show where it says, either by logic or in the Bible where God must follow man's laws. I don't believe I've ever seen physics in the Bible.
No, you would, given your claims.

Are you arguing that there are no physical laws in the universe? that since the Bible doesn't mention inertia, it doesn't exist?

Don't be a fool.

The laws exist and have always existed because they are the structure by which God ordered the universe.

Just keep posting things like this... you are making me look brilliant.
 
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KCDAD

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By the way, KC, are you going to address my points, arguments, and evidence from my previous reply?
How many times do you want me to dismiss your ramblings with reason? I have answered every rational statement you have made.
 
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KCDAD

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God doesn’t really exist but is a concept in which we measure our pain?
Actually it was a line from John Lennon’s song Imagine.

You can't even get that right and it was only 40 years ago.
(by John Lennon)

Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today...

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace...

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one

Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world...

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one
 
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Apollo Celestio

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Are you arguing that there are no physical laws in the universe? that since the Bible doesn't mention inertia, it doesn't exist?

Don't be a fool.

The laws exist and have always existed because they are the structure by which God ordered the universe.

Just keep posting things like this... you are making me look brilliant.
I don't think he's saying it doesn't exist, just that the Bible isn't a book on physics. Though, do you think God is subject to these laws of physics? (Which we did make, they were not divinely inspired.) (Aren't most of them still theories?)
 
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CShephard53

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How many times do you want me to dismiss your ramblings with reason? I have answered every rational statement you have made.
Oh, is that what you call what you've presented? Anyone reading this thread can go back and see that you've made quite a false claim here. So, show us where you address all of posts:
181, 171, 168.
That's just from the last 40 or so posts.

Are you arguing that there are no physical laws in the universe?
Please show me where I argue that. Please show me where I even come close.
that since the Bible doesn't mention inertia, it doesn't exist?
Or that.
Don't be a fool.
I'm not being a fool. Quite an accusation you've got going there.
The laws exist and have always existed because they are the structure by which God ordered the universe.
Where does it say God created any of the laws you put forth?

Just keep posting things like this... you are making me look brilliant.
Wow. I'm not even going to go there.

Tell me, KC, why should God be subject to man-made laws? Are we greater than God that we can place Him in a box we create? That is what you suggest.
 
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Tawhano

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KCDAD said:
You can't even get that right and it was only 40 years ago.
My bad, it wasn’t 'Imagine' it was 'God'. I have gotten everything right but that; it is you who has everything wrong. This is evident on your consistently using fallacies to construct a bogus argument. You never debate me; you misrepresent me and debate that. You never give any sources with the exception of a couple that didn’t even back your views up. You rely extensively on emotional debate, preferring to demean and ridicule your opponent’s beliefs (even when you have no idea what they are as you do with me) rather than debate the issue with integrity. In short you have nothing so you present nothing.

God (The Dream is Over)
by John Lennon

God is a Concept by which
we measure our pain
I'll say it again
God is a Concept by which
we measure our pain
I don't believe in magic
I don't believe in I-ching
I don't believe in Bible
I don't believe in Tarot
I don't believe in Hitler
I don't believe in Jesus
I don't believe in Kennedy
I don't believe in Buddha
I don't believe in Mantra
I don't believe in Gita
I don't believe in Yoga
I don't believe in Kings
I don't believe in Elvis
I don't believe in Zimmerman
I don't believe in Beatles
I just believe in me...and that reality

The dream is over
What can I say?
the Dream is Over
Yesterday
I was the Dreamweaver
But now I'm reborn
I was the Walrus
But now I'm John
and so dear friends
you'll just have to carry on
The Dream is over


So the summary of everything you said is that you provided evidence in the way of scriptures in which you believe to be the product of an ignorant person's imagination to answer my question. Not to mention that each verse in your opinion have Jesus becoming God at different times. How ridicules is that? So I ask you again please explain how did Jesus get to be a god in your theology?
 
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KCDAD

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I don't think he's saying it doesn't exist, just that the Bible isn't a book on physics. Though, do you think God is subject to these laws of physics? (Which we did make, they were not divinely inspired.) (Aren't most of them still theories?)
We made gravity? Gravity is just a theory?
Gravity is a fact. It is a law of God's creation.
We only defined it through observation and testing. It has existed since the first moment of creation. (The same with inertia, friction, speed of light, etc etc)

So Yes, in this world, in this universe, God and all of his creation is subject to those laws... that why they are called laws... unlike civil laws, where only the poor are subject to them.
 
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KCDAD

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Oh, is that what you call what you've presented? Anyone reading this thread can go back and see that you've made quite a false claim here. So, show us where you address all of posts:
181, 171, 168.
That's just from the last 40 or so posts.

Please show me where I argue that. Please show me where I even come close.
Or that.
I'm not being a fool. Quite an accusation you've got going there.
Where does it say God created any of the laws you put forth?

Wow. I'm not even going to go there.

Tell me, KC, why should God be subject to man-made laws? Are we greater than God that we can place Him in a box we create? That is what you suggest.
How is gravity a man made law? How is inertia a man made law? Is it in the constitution? Did we get to vote on it?
 
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KCDAD

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God (The Dream is Over)
by John Lennon

God is a Concept by which
we measure our pain
I'll say it again
God is a Concept by which
we measure our pain
I don't believe in magic
I don't believe in I-ching
I don't believe in Bible
I don't believe in Tarot
I don't believe in Hitler
I don't believe in Jesus
I don't believe in Kennedy
I don't believe in Buddha
I don't believe in Mantra
I don't believe in Gita
I don't believe in Yoga
I don't believe in Kings
I don't believe in Elvis
I don't believe in Zimmerman
I don't believe in Beatles
I just believe in me...and that reality

The dream is over
What can I say?
the Dream is Over
Yesterday
I was the Dreamweaver
But now I'm reborn
I was the Walrus
But now I'm John
and so dear friends
you'll just have to carry on
The Dream is over
Theology in action! I just believe in me!

No wonder this song was in your mind under the title of Imagine.
 
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CShephard53

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We made gravity? Gravity is just a theory?
Gravity is a fact. It is a law of God's creation.
We only defined it through observation and testing. It has existed since the first moment of creation. (The same with inertia, friction, speed of light, etc etc)

So Yes, in this world, in this universe, God and all of his creation is subject to those laws... that why they are called laws... unlike civil laws, where only the poor are subject to them.
So God has to follow the laws we create, the ones that are not in the Bible? That is some argument you have going there. Tell me, what logic, if any, or Scripture backs that astounding and awful claim?
 
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Tawhano

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KCDAD said:
No wonder this song was in your mind under the title of Imagine.

It ran through my mind because it reminded me of your attitude. The title imagine came to mind because everything you offered so far is from your imagination.

So the summary of everything you said is that you provided evidence in the way of scriptures in which you believe to be the product of an ignorant person's imagination to answer my question about how you consider Jesus was God. Not to mention that each verse in your opinion has Jesus becoming God at different times. How ridicules is that? So I ask you again please explain how did Jesus get to be a god in your theology?
 
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KCDAD

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It ran through my mind because it reminded me of your attitude. The title imagine came to mind because everything you offered so far is from your imagination.

So the summary of everything you said is that you provided evidence in the way of scriptures in which you believe to be the product of an ignorant person's imagination to answer my question about how you consider Jesus was God. Not to mention that each verse in your opinion has Jesus becoming God at different times. How ridicules is that? So I ask you again please explain how did Jesus get to be a god in your theology?
The question was: How did Jesus get to be a god in (my) theology?

I can't answer that question because 1) He didn't "get to be a god", 2) "How" is a science question and theology answers the question why.

So I will, instead, try to explain the concept of God, and why it applies specifically to the man, Jesus (Y'shua).

God is a generic, non-specifc, term that applies to an absolute, infinite concept that refers to a Creating event.
Noun

  • S: (n) God, Supreme Being (the supernatural being conceived as the perfect and omnipotent and omniscient originator and ruler of the universe; the object of worship in monotheistic religions)
  • S: (n) deity, divinity, god, immortal (any supernatural being worshipped as controlling some part of the world or some aspect of life or who is the personification of a force)
http://wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=god

The personification or anthropomorohization of this concept is a primitive mental and social construct to simplify this Creative Agent.
The characteristics of God vary from culture to culture based mainly upon the technological and social evolution of the socieites in which those cultures exist. For the most part, God has infinite, omnipotent, omniscience and transcendant quallities. In some theologies, God is personally involved in the welfare of the creation, and on others is oblivious, EXCEPT when entreated to be involved through supplication, the offering of gifts or through rebellion.
A more enlightened view of God includes the notion that God is not a being at all, but a reality beyond existence, beyond anything in creation. In my understanding, God is more like a universal principle outside of social construction like Truth, Justice, Mercy, Love or like a universally recognized law of existence like gravity, inertia, or fluid mechanics.
Eastern religions have long held that the idea of "personal" god is neither rational nor practical, and that this idea of a "force" or "principle" better explains how human life, and the universe works.

How does this relate to Jesus? Being one of creation and yet being aware of and being able to access the truth and power of this principle sets Jesus apart from other men. Jesus was not the only one who fits this special criteria. I think without a doubt the Buddah, and Martin Luther King, Jr, and Malcolm X in our time also spoke with authority and truth, just as did Jesus.
What sets Jesus apart is his recognition of the extreme difference in reality with which he saw these truths and how he was able to impart this truth in simple, terms for the common person to understand. In contrast, others have been seemingly focused on one or two specific aspects of human life.
That "truth" that existed in Jesus was God in the same way it is when that truth exists in us. (The yardstick for measuring this is in Moses' Ten Commandments: not laws that you must obey, but benchmarks by which a "successful" life is measured.)
So, Jesus did not become a god (except in the theology of the Roman pagans that appropriated Christianity for its own political purposes and in the process changed it.

Jesus (and all humans...certainly all of creation) is God-filled, and the distinction is that most of us are taught and learn very quickly that is it is more fun to be "me" than it is to be a part of the entire creation. We are totally absorbed in the importance of "me", that is, self centerdness or ego-centrism, and it through this "original sin" that we lose are connectedness with the Divine or Sacred.
It is clear that Jesus had little or no concept of "self", at least as he is described in the Gospels, with two significant exceptions: 1) the temptation in the desert and 2) in the Garden of Gethsmane when he cried out for release from his impending trial and eventual execution. Her we see the human (self centered) side of Jesus. Only for a moment do we see it though, because in both instances, we are told, he immediately turned his focus back to the Divine, away from himself.

Does this answer your question?
 
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