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Light and Stars

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philadiddle

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Well the guys with the nobel prizes say that heavy elements and indeed the components of life were extremely unlikely byproducts. The precise tuning of the vacuum energy was itself enormously unlikely.
I think you're referring to the anthropic principle. It doesn't mean that the big bang is unlikely, it means that everything seems to be tuned just perfectly for life to exist in this universe. If the vacuum effects were different, the big bang would have acted differently. If the total gravity of the universe was lower, hydrogen wouldn't have come together to form stars to get the cycles going. If the total gravity was higher, the simpler elements for life wouldn't exist in the proportions that it does. There's also the distance an electron orbits the nucleus, and the effects of electromagnetism, chemical reactions, etc, etc, etc. The chances of all of this working out just right for us to be here is very small. However, the big bang doesn't decide what these laws and principles are, the big bang is dictated by the laws, not the other way around. For the lurkers who are interested here's a link.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropic


One of the funny things about it is that the something from nothing idea (or something from something extremely exotic and barely knowable) works pretty well in a couple of other models. The Russ Humphries white hole thing is not really all that radically different -- particularly if we are working with enormous improbability.
IIRC Humphries model had an event horizon where outside of our area of the universe (I don't know what that area is) time went by much faster, giving light time to get here. Of course, there's no peer reviewed paper on it because it falls apart in the hands of any astro physicist who examines the evidence. It's always easier to just skip peer review and publish a book.

Perhaps a theme based cartoon with Princess Ponies might be persuasive. Instead of Rainbow land, you could have evolution land. :p
Evolution land sounds fun. The rides would be different every time you went there!

There are some noncreationist scientists with respectible jobs who think Big Bang just doesn't work. So its a minority? So what?
Who, and why don't they think it works?
 
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busterdog

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I think you're referring to the anthropic principle. It doesn't mean that the big bang is unlikely, it means that everything seems to be tuned just perfectly for life to exist in this universe. If the vacuum effects were different, the big bang would have acted differently. If the total gravity of the universe was lower, hydrogen wouldn't have come together to form stars to get the cycles going. If the total gravity was higher, the simpler elements for life wouldn't exist in the proportions that it does. There's also the distance an electron orbits the nucleus, and the effects of electromagnetism, chemical reactions, etc, etc, etc. The chances of all of this working out just right for us to be here is very small. However, the big bang doesn't decide what these laws and principles are, the big bang is dictated by the laws, not the other way around. For the lurkers who are interested here's a link.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropic


IIRC Humphries model had an event horizon where outside of our area of the universe (I don't know what that area is) time went by much faster, giving light time to get here. Of course, there's no peer reviewed paper on it because it falls apart in the hands of any astro physicist who examines the evidence. It's always easier to just skip peer review and publish a book.

Evolution land sounds fun. The rides would be different every time you went there!

Who, and why don't they think it works?

You characterization of the "anthropic principle" is just fine. Either a person is going to see that as a statement of probability or they aren't.

As for the who part:

Accretion processes onto Black Holes are supposed to enable them to radiate high energy X-rays. When X-ray telescopes found strong X-ray sources in galaxies they said, aha, this is too strong to be an X-ray star so it must be a black hole in orbit around a star - a binary with a massive black hole revolving around it. Discovery of these now MASSIVE Black holes was so exciting that innumerable papers have appeared showing the X-ray positions and deep photographs at the positions the objects.

Strangely, when these objects were seen optically no one took spectra in order to see what they actually were. Finally a paper appeared in a referred Journal 3 where the authors showed the spectra of two of them to be that of high redshift quasars! Just to cement the case they looked at previously identified quasar in or close to galaxies and in 24 out of 24 cases the quasars belonged to the class of Ultra Luminous X-ray Sources.

2. This result is a double disaster in that the massive Black Holes turned out to be high redshift quasars, not a Black Hole in a binary star. Perhaps worse, they have been accepted as members of nearby galaxies and therefore cannot be out at the edge of the universe. Bye bye Big Bang and all that fundamental physics. (This result was not put out as a press release.)



http://www.haltonarp.com/articles/astronomy_by_press_release

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halton_Arp

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Planck_Institute

Hey, I found this and I now really, really feel like a genius. :clap: :clap: :clap: :bow: :bow:

An Open Letter to the Scientific Community
cosmologystatement.org

(Published in New Scientist, May 22, 2004)

The big bang today relies on a growing number of hypothetical entities, things that we have never observed-- inflation, dark matter and dark energy are the most prominent examples. Without them, there would be a fatal contradiction between the observations made by astronomers and the predictions of the big bang theory. In no other field of physics would this continual recourse to new hypothetical objects be accepted as a way of bridging the gap between theory and observation. It would, at the least, raise serious questions about the validity of the underlying theory.

But the big bang theory can't survive without these fudge factors. Without the hypothetical inflation field, the big bang does not predict the smooth, isotropic cosmic background radiation that is observed, because there would be no way for parts of the universe that are now more than a few degrees away in the sky to come to the same temperature and thus emit the same amount of microwave radiation.

Without some kind of dark matter, unlike any that we have observed on Earth despite 20 years of experiments, big-bang theory makes contradictory predictions for the density of matter in the universe. Inflation requires a density 20 times larger than that implied by big bang nucleosynthesis, the theory's explanation of the origin of the light elements. And without dark energy, the theory predicts that the universe is only about 8 billion years old, which is billions of years younger than the age of many stars in our galaxy.

What is more, the big bang theory can boast of no quantitative predictions that have subsequently been validated by observation. The successes claimed by the theory's supporters consist of its ability to retrospectively fit observations with a steadily increasing array of adjustable parameters, just as the old Earth-centered cosmology of Ptolemy needed layer upon layer of epicycles.

Yet the big bang is not the only framework available for understanding the history of the universe. Plasma cosmology and the steady-state model both hypothesize an evolving universe without beginning or end. These and other alternative approaches can also explain the basic phenomena of the cosmos, including the abundances of light elements, the generation of large-scale structure, the cosmic background radiation, and how the redshift of far-away galaxies increases with distance. They have even predicted new phenomena that were subsequently observed, something the big bang has failed to do.

Supporters of the big bang theory may retort that these theories do not explain every cosmological observation. But that is scarcely surprising, as their development has been severely hampered by a complete lack of funding. Indeed, such questions and alternatives cannot even now be freely discussed and examined. An open exchange of ideas is lacking in most mainstream conferences. Whereas Richard Feynman could say that "science is the culture of doubt", in cosmology today doubt and dissent are not tolerated, and young scientists learn to remain silent if they have something negative to say about the standard big bang model. Those who doubt the big bang fear that saying so will cost them their funding.

Even observations are now interpreted through this biased filter, judged right or wrong depending on whether or not they support the big bang. So discordant data on red shifts, lithium and helium abundances, and galaxy distribution, among other topics, are ignored or ridiculed. This reflects a growing dogmatic mindset that is alien to the spirit of free scientific inquiry.

Today, virtually all financial and experimental resources in cosmology are devoted to big bang studies. Funding comes from only a few sources, and all the peer-review committees that control them are dominated by supporters of the big bang. As a result, the dominance of the big bang within the field has become self-sustaining, irrespective of the scientific validity of the theory.

Giving support only to projects within the big bang framework undermines a fundamental element of the scientific method -- the constant testing of theory against observation. Such a restriction makes unbiased discussion and research impossible. To redress this, we urge those agencies that fund work in cosmology to set aside a significant fraction of their funding for investigations into alternative theories and observational contradictions of the big bang. To avoid bias, the peer review committee that allocates such funds could be composed of astronomers and physicists from outside the field of cosmology.

Allocating funding to investigations into the big bang's validity, and its alternatives, would allow the scientific process to determine our most accurate model of the history of the universe.

http://www.cosmologystatement.org/

Read the long list of scientists who signed that statement. Do you hear any echoes of AIG? I sure do.

Actually, I am not that smart. I am just messing a few people here. But, I do have a nose for, ummm, ah, bbbb bbbb bb ...... baloney.
 
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Nachtjager

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:wave: To the original spirit of the thread, I'm kinda' curious how this turned into a debate about the big bang theory. Unless I'm wrong, the premise of the original post wasn't to debate IF God created the universe and everything else, just to debate HOW LONG IT TOOK to create the universe and everything in it. I may be wrong, but that's what I got out of the question.

For me, the bottom line is kinda' simple. We know the speed of light, we know the approximate distances of some stars, and we know how to use a calculator, it ain't that hard. Six literal days, despite what AiG and Hammy says isn't realistic, and banging the same old drum over and over again, if the sun wasn't created until the fourth day, how can we possibly know how long those first "days" were?

Take care and God bless! :wave:
 
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busterdog

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:wave: To the original spirit of the thread, I'm kinda' curious how this turned into a debate about the big bang theory. Unless I'm wrong, the premise of the original post wasn't to debate IF God created the universe and everything else, just to debate HOW LONG IT TOOK to create the universe and everything in it. I may be wrong, but that's what I got out of the question.

For me, the bottom line is kinda' simple. We know the speed of light, we know the approximate distances of some stars, and we know how to use a calculator, it ain't that hard. Six literal days, despite what AiG and Hammy says isn't realistic, and banging the same old drum over and over again, if the sun wasn't created until the fourth day, how can we possibly know how long those first "days" were?

Take care and God bless! :wave:

If you don't know when and under what conditions the light was created, how do you know any of this? You are assuming a virtually static universe (I know, I know. But we are talking about relative change) in the near term (last few thousand years).

You say that you know the distances involved. Well, what were those distances 5,000 years ago? Of, if the universe is that old, 5 billions years ago?

The reason is that the same assumptions you are using are the BB assumptions. The point is the assumptions don't work, except in a very dodgy kind of theory.

The Big Bang cosmology is also one of the foundations for the concept of a constante speed of light.
 
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KerrMetric

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busterdog

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I got the impression he was joking Kerr.

(Seeing that made me LOL)

For good measure though: here's Project Steve.

Project Steve has no relevance. New Scientist is not a bible study.

These are credentialed scientists saying, if you want Big Bang to be a theory then fine. But don't make it a brick wall for all other theories, since Big Bang has big holes. Once it is used to stifle other propositions, it is not a theory, its a prejudice. I keep hearing its "just a theory" but people keep proving its dogma, not theory, by how they treat it.

Once this is established, we don't need this light being created in flight straw man to debunk YEC, prejudicially speaking.
 
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KerrMetric

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Once this is established, we don't need this light being created in flight straw man to debunk YEC, prejudicially speaking.

Do you know what a non sequitur is? Yes - you guys do need light created in flight and this issue has nothing to do with the Big Bang. No matter what you say about the Big Bang it has no implications for your requirement of in situ light formation. You are planting a red herring here.

I have seen you many times over the last year or two make fallacious claims about the Big Bang from both errors of fact about the Big Bang to errors linking it with other topics.
 
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brimac

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I need a creationist or 6 day creation believer to explain to me how light from stars billions of light years away reach us within a young earth timeframe.
Adam and Eve were created as fully matured adults! Logically it makes perfect sense that the rest of God's creation would also have been created in a fully matured state, including the stars. In which case from the very first day when god created light, the light from stars billions of light years away had already reached the Earth.
 
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Mallon

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Once this is established, we don't need this light being created in flight straw man to debunk YEC, prejudicially speaking.
brimac said:
from the very first day when god created light, the light from stars billions of light years away had already reached the Earth.

:)
 
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busterdog

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Adam and Eve were created as fully matured adults! Logically it makes perfect sense that the rest of God's creation would also have been created in a fully matured state, including the stars. In which case from the very first day when god created light, the light from stars billions of light years away had already reached the Earth.

The way that man emerged fully formed is provided without explanation. Being formed from a rib or from dust is not a lot of content outside of "God speaking it." There is no more content there than in the healing of a withered arm.

I don't know that we demand an answer quite as succintlly as you have. How the light traveled or whatever, we just don't know.

So, I think I agree with you in principle, but I am just not sure how clear we should presume to be in making a new cosmology.
 
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gluadys

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The Big Bang cosmology is also one of the foundations for the concept of a constante speed of light.

IIRC correctly, it was the other way around. An expanding universe was an implication of Relativity Theory which postulated a constant speed of light.

In turn, big bang was posited to explain the expanding universe. So your statement should read in reverse, that a constant speed of light was one of the foundations of big bang cosmology.
 
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Assyrian

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The way that man emerged fully formed is provided without explanation.
So is the talking snake. It is when we read the rest of the bible that we find out the snake was really Satan (Rev 12). But in the story of the garden it is simply presented as a snake without any explanation. There are names for stories like that, allegory or parable.

Being formed from a rib or from dust is not a lot of content outside of "God speaking it." There is no more content there than in the healing of a withered arm.
Or the disappearance of the snake's legs.

The odd thing is, Satan is never presented in the rest of the bible as missing any limbs, instead we read of him
Job 2:2 going to and fro on the earth, and from walking up and down on it, and that he 1Pet 5:8 walks around like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour. Perhaps the image was figurative...
 
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KerrMetric

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In turn, big bang was posited to explain the expanding universe. So your statement should read in reverse, that a constant speed of light was one of the foundations of big bang cosmology.

Neither is correct.
 
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KerrMetric

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OK.

I was really thinking in terms of historical sequence. Relativity was proposed and accepted before big bang.

Yes that is correct of course.

But technically speaking the Big Bang Theory can stand on its own without c being strictly constant and certainly the constant nature of c in no way is dependent upon Big Bang Theory.
 
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busterdog

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IIRC correctly, it was the other way around. An expanding universe was an implication of Relativity Theory which postulated a constant speed of light.

In turn, big bang was posited to explain the expanding universe. So your statement should read in reverse, that a constant speed of light was one of the foundations of big bang cosmology.

OK
 
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Yekcidmij

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gluadys

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From the link:

A pair of German physicists claim to have broken the speed of light - an achievement that would undermine our entire understanding of space and time.

According to Einstein's special theory of relativity, it would require an infinite amount of energy to propel an object at more than 186,000 miles per second.

However, Dr Gunter Nimtz and Dr Alfons Stahlhofen, of the University of Koblenz, say they may have breached a key tenet of that theory.

The pair say they have conducted an experiment in which microwave photons - energetic packets of light - travelled "instantaneously" between a pair of prisms that had been moved up to 3ft apart.

Being able to travel faster than the speed of light would lead to a wide variety of bizarre consequences.

For instance, an astronaut moving faster than it would theoretically arrive at a destination before leaving.

The scientists were investigating a phenomenon called quantum tunnelling, which allows sub-atomic particles to break apparently unbreakable laws.

Dr Nimtz told New Scientist magazine: "For the time being, this is the only violation of special relativity that I know of."​


Trust a newspaper to jump from quantum tunneling to astronauts arriving before they leave.

Otherwise, something interesting to keep an eye on.
 
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