Atheists do not deny a God exists.

[Tomk80]

So, I do not believe in God, although I am not in and of itself against belief in God. How would KCAD describe me than, other than with the word atheist?

 

[Loudmouth]

Loudmouth:At least scientists have a way of detecting narrowband radio emissions. Care to tell me which instrument I can use to detect God?

KCDAD: Your mind.

Your mind is not an instrument. In fact, instruments are the very thing humans create in order to get away from the mind. The mind is only able to produce subjective information. Instruments are capable of producing objective information. Big difference.

If I said that there was an invisible dragon living in my garage would you accept the same answer you gave me?

 

[Smilin]

/me has nothing to add to the discussion....

hmmmpppphhh......

What's for lunch anyone?

Balonie sammich? :lol:

 

[Loudmouth]

I say we take a page from KCDAD's playbook and totally redefine the argument. I am skeptical of the existence of gods. People who believe in gods are not skeptical at all. Therefore, I am a skeptic and those who believe in gods are askeptics.

 

[thaumaturgy]

Regarding the Hitler discussion, I think it is necessary to mention two things:

2. Hitler's writings are in my opinion ambiguous when it comes
to whether he was a christian or not. He may well have used christianity as a tool to gain power, for example to gain the support of the pope. His frequent appeals to a higher power do, however, imply that he was a theist.

I actually agree with you on this. I have no doubt that many evil people use religion to gain advantage among those who get all warm and fuzzy any time they hear the name of God invoked in the service of anything. Regardless of the evil person's personal beliefs.

I would be willing to agree that Hitler was ambiguous as to his religious thought despite his many invokations of Christianity in speeches and writings.

I was merely bringing this up because, as you point out in Point #1 of your post antisemitism was quite well established by the christian church long before Hitler came around. It was an easy fit for whomever wanted to use religion to further that particular evil.

KCDAD seems to spout as if history bore out his point that social darwinism was somehow purely methodological naturalism and therefore the only bulwark against such excesses of evil is the belief in some higher morality. Clearly such is not the case.

 

[KCDAD]

How so? The fact that I don't think there is anything that I should worship has no bearing on whether I think anything is more important than I am.

Semantics... it is the same thing...

 

[KCDAD]

Hitler certainly did, this is what was being taught by the christians in Germany at the time.

But you're avoiding my point. Evolution and natural selection had nothing to do with Hitler's claims of Arayan superiority. It was based on Hitler's interpretation of the Bible.

So my question to you is, what history were you studying when you made the inaccurate claim that the theory of evolution lead to the idea of superior races of man? And if you studied history, why didn't you know that Hitler based the notion of the master race on the bible?

That is something you need to substantiate. How can there be a superior race, without any mention of race in The Bible? Race, as a concept, did not exist until 17th century. It was not applied to anything other than slavery until Herbert Spencer and the Social Biologists of the 19th century.
Even if Hitler invoked Christianity as a reason for Aryan supremacy, much has been done in the name of religion, politics, culture, race and more importantly nationalism, that were nothing more than economically motivated grabs for power. The motivational factor is incidental to the real cause.

 

[KCDAD]

You have committed the is/ought fallacy. "The fittest survive" does not imply "The fittest ought to survive."



Yes, I know about the idiocies of Social Darwinism, but quite obviously it did not produce a better state of affairs. That's partly because of short-sightedness and prejudice, but more to do with the is/ought gap.

Perhaps you should learn some moral philosophy before you go raving on about how there are no morals without God - because people have been studying the question for longer than you.

That would send Darwin spinning... the fit DO survive... in nature. Man has corrupted and effectively halted the human evolution process by eliminating natural selection. If you want the human race to "be all it can be" you should be advocating some kind of eugenics, or at the very least, and end to all charity, medical assistance and education provided by organizations outside the conjugal family.

 

[tanzanos]

That is something you need to substantiate. How can there be a superior race, without any mention of race in The Bible? Race, as a concept, did not exist until 17th century. It was not applied to anything other than slavery until Herbert Spencer and the Social Biologists of the 19th century.
Even if Hitler invoked Christianity as a reason for Aryan supremacy, much has been done in the name of religion, politics, culture, race and more importantly nationalism, that were nothing more than economically motivated grabs for power. The motivational factor is incidental to the real cause.

How about God's chosen people: the Israelites. Does this not qualify as racial prejudice on God's behalf? And if it is so then the Israelites are superior to all other races.

I insist there is no god except the one that resides in human imagination.

 

[KCDAD]

Sure, but then you're (or rather, KCDAD's) still stuck, because his implication was that people who believed in XYZ deity were all correct. But if they don't believe in such a vague concept, then they're not.

Not 100% correct, but not wrong either. The man describing the elephant's tail is just as right as the guy describing the elephant's trunk.

 

[KCDAD]

Oh, let's see! Who said anything about Jews being inferior? Why it was HITLER! Here's some of Hitler's quotes!





Sorry, put your goof-ball analogy for Social Darwinism away. (SD, which by every account has been pretty-well repudiated for the past, oh, 50 to 60 years). If you want to erect strawmen, don't give US the matches.

Try again! This time, check your facts. You might have to hit more than the dictionary this time 'round.

Neither of quotes have ANYTHING to do with Christianity... mainstream, liberal, orthodox, protestant or Catholic... they are the rantings of a lunatic. Just because he says "Christian" doesn't make him any more than the someone who says the word "scientist".

 

[KCDAD]

I actually agree with you on this. I have no doubt that many evil people use religion to gain advantage among those who get all warm and fuzzy any time they hear the name of God invoked in the service of anything. Regardless of the evil person's personal beliefs.

I would be willing to agree that Hitler was ambiguous as to his religious thought despite his many invokations of Christianity in speeches and writings.

I was merely bringing this up because, as you point out in Point #1 of your post antisemitism was quite well established by the christian church long before Hitler came around. It was an easy fit for whomever wanted to use religion to further that particular evil.

KCDAD seems to spout as if history bore out his point that social darwinism was somehow purely methodological naturalism and therefore the only bulwark against such excesses of evil is the belief in some higher morality. Clearly such is not the case.

Hitler did not believe in a higher power..and he hated the church.
He appealed to a very religious Catholic population by changing the perception of Jews from just "outsiders" to an inferior and viral race destroying Germany.

This idea of Jews killing Jesus was as widespread as the KKK was in the Northern United States from 1870 -1964... not very... but where it was, it had a very strong influence on culture and attitudes.

My word, people... every Christian knows Jesus, John the Baptist, Mother Mary, Paul and the disciples were all Jews.

Revisionist history is fascinating, but not very suitable for understanding humanity.

 

[KCDAD]

How about God's chosen people: the Israelites. Does this not qualify as racial prejudice on God's behalf? And if it is so then the Israelites are superior to all other races.

I insist there is no god except the one that resides in human imagination.

Everyone is God's chosen people... the Jews were writing THEIR history... so to them they were the chosen. In horticultural and pastoral societies, and agrarian societies as towns and cities developed, people thought of god or gods as localized... their god. Their town's god vs some other town's god... Each felt selected or chosen by their god.

 

[FishFace]

That would send Darwin spinning... the fit DO survive... in nature. Man has corrupted and effectively halted the human evolution process by eliminating natural selection. If you want the human race to "be all it can be" you should be advocating some kind of eugenics, or at the very least, and end to all charity, medical assistance and education provided by organizations outside the conjugal family.

You imply I agree with social darwinism. I don't.

 

[FishFace]

Not 100% correct, but not wrong either. The man describing the elephant's tail is just as right as the guy describing the elephant's trunk.

Not if he describes the elephant tail as the entire elephant, and not if, by some feature of the elephant, and elephant could not simultaneously possess a tail and a trunk.

As we have discussed, a God cannot simultaneously be personal and be "order out of chaos." They're incompatible.

 

[FishFace]

Hitler did not believe in a higher power..

I take it you haven't read anything he wrote, then.

He appealed to a very religious Catholic population by changing the perception of Jews from just "outsiders" to an inferior and viral race destroying Germany.

As you've been told, the Jews have been persecuted for ages - since medieval times at least.

 

[Tomk80]

Hitler did not believe in a higher power..and he hated the church.

Hitler did believe in a higher power. That is definitely what his writings indicate.

He appealed to a very religious Catholic population by changing the perception of Jews from just "outsiders" to an inferior and viral race destroying Germany.

In Germany, yes. But in Eastern Europe the view on jewish was more than just "outcast". If you look at jewish history, you'll see that in Poland jewish were treated as third-rate citizens and often persecuted. Hitler drew his inspiration from this.

This idea of Jews killing Jesus was as widespread as the KKK was in the Northern United States from 1870 -1964... not very... but where it was, it had a very strong influence on culture and attitudes.

My word, people... every Christian knows Jesus, John the Baptist, Mother Mary, Paul and the disciples were all Jews.

Revisionist history is fascinating, but not very suitable for understanding humanity.

Than why do you do it? The KKK is a christian organisation. The views on jews were inspired by the treatment of jews by christians. Jewish persecution has a long-standing tradition in European tradition and has always been supported, if not promoted, by the church institutions. This may be uncomfortable, you may claim it was not "real christians (tm)" that did it, but that is what happened.

 

[thaumaturgy]

Hitler did not believe in a higher power..and he hated the church.
He appealed to a very religious Catholic population by changing the perception of Jews from just "outsiders" to an inferior and viral race destroying Germany.

This idea of Jews killing Jesus was as widespread as the KKK was in the Northern United States from 1870 -1964... not very... but where it was, it had a very strong influence on culture and attitudes.

My word, people... every Christian knows Jesus, John the Baptist, Mother Mary, Paul and the disciples were all Jews.

Revisionist history is fascinating, but not very suitable for understanding humanity.

Boy KCDAD, you really need to re-read your history. Ever hear of the Pogroms in Russia near the turn of the 19th-20th century? Hmmm?

Try this resource:
"Although the term anti-Semitism was coined in 1879, anti-Jewish agitation has existed for several thousand years."

"Jews were massacred in great numbers, especially during the Crusades; segregated in ghettos; required to wear identifying marks or garments; and economically crippled by the imposition of restrictions on the business activities open to them. "

"Impediments imposed on Jews since the Middle Ages became increasingly severe. In Russia, measures were adopted to prevent Jews from owning land and to limit the number of Jews admitted to institutions of higher education to 3 to 10 percent of the total enrollment in those institutions."

Or this source:
"The term pogrom refers to the Russian government, who advocated and even financed large massacres of Jews. In the pogroms, officials would roam the streets destroying Jewish-owned property and even beating Jews. Some of these pogroms were meant to entice Jews to convert to Christianity."

This isn't even mentioning the Passion Plays thought to spur a lot of antisemitism in Europe!

Revisionist history, indeed.

Oh, and by-the-by, how do you KNOW Hitler "hated the church"? Was it from his numerous pro-Christian commentaries? What data do you have for your claim?

Certainly the Church didn't hate Hitler!

Photo of
Hitler wth Archbishop Cesare Orsenigo, the papal nuncio in Berlin, 1935 [SIZE=-1]On April 20, 1939, Archbishop Orsenigo celebrated Hitler's birthday. The celebrations, initiated by Pacelli (Pope Pius XII) became a tradition. Each April 20, Cardinal Bertram of Berlin was to send "warmest congratulations to the Fuhrer in the name of the bishops and the dioceses in Germany" and added with "fervent prayers which the Catholics of Germany are sending to heaven on their altars."[/SIZE]

Please, when arguing history with people, make sure they don't have access to outside information next time.

 

[KCDAD]

Not if he describes the elephant tail as the entire elephant, and not if, by some feature of the elephant, and elephant could not simultaneously possess a tail and a trunk.

As we have discussed, a God cannot simultaneously be personal and be "order out of chaos." They're incompatible.

An elephant can't be a rope and a snake at the same time either... or a leaf and tree trunk, a spear and a mountain... that is the gist of the story.

 

[Tomk80]

Well, Hitler certainly had no specific liking for "the church" as such. From what I read, he saw different churches as dividing the people. The Hitler jugend had a song which (translated) went:

We are the joyous Hitler youth,
We do not need any Christian virtue
Our leader is our savior
The Pope and Rabbi shall be gone
We want to be pagans once again."

Certainly in his private conversations he wasn't particularly kind to christianity:

"The heaviest blow which ever struck humanity was Christianity; Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew."

From what I can tell, Hitler had his own kind of paganism that he stuck to. He definitely believed in providence and a higher God-like power. But although a lot of his ideas came from christianity, when reading his private statements he doesn't exactly come of as a christian.