Can you really get to heaven without works????

Do you need works to make it to heaven

  • Yes, you need to have good works to justify your faith

  • No, the only thing you need to do is pray the sinners prayer

  • It is a balance; you are saved by faith but your works justify your faith


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PaladinValer

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Well, I guess anything could happen. I'll probably die under a falling piano before that stuff happens, but yeah, theoretically...

Which is why we should "approach" salvation with fear and trembling. Anything could happen and if often does.

That's not really an issue for me. I have repented, I have been made new. I didn't gain salvation by not sinning, and I won't lose it by sinning.

Yes, you will have condemned yourself each time you willfully sin. That one sin done contemplatively is enough to be Judged to experience hell. So you cannot just repent once: you must be contrite, repentant, confessatory, and penitent each time.

No, actually it comes with hope and assurance.

12 Therefore, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed me, not only in my presence, but much more now in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling

St. Paul's Letter to the Christian Philippians, chapter 2, verse 12.

I'll trust the Apostle's word, with all due respect.

Does this happen a lot to people around you?

Some people I know have apostated, fallen into heresy, or refuse to be penitent. It happens all the time to many people. I hope and pray that they turn around and begin the process of reconciliation, for if they don't, they are in grave danger.

The Spirit is the power of God. Not by my work, not by might, not by power, but by His Spirit etc etc.

The Holy Spirit is God, not "the power of God." Furthermore, while He

Furthermore, we must cooperate with the Holy Spirit, or else nothing is done. We are not robots or atomatons.

A sinner wants to sin. A sinner is a sinner by nature, and is a slave to sin. We who have been born again have a new identity, a new nature. It's not our nature to sin.

We are still sinners for we still sin both inadvertently and willfully. And yes, it is our nature to sin. Baptism may wipe original sin away, regenerate, and make us habitable for the Holy Spirit, but it does not fully restore us nor does it change our human nature or repair completely our broken souls. We may have a new identity, but it is as among those seeking reconciliation and have thusly been born from above. It doesn't mean an automatic free ticket out of hell.


Is. You are still a sinner, as am I. To deny that is to willfully sin.

Nah, you can say it right now. Just because this or that sin may bring you a short-term satisfaction doesn't mean you LIKE the sin or WANT to do it.

That is Pelagianism, not Christianity. Pelagianism is not compatable and is condemned by Scripture, Tradition, and Reason.

Our MINDS are renewed daily, and we grow in knowledge. Our IDENTITY is children of God, born of Him, perfect, blameless, holy, righteous.

Knowledge? That is Gnostic. Salvation isn't a secret but available to even the most severely "retarded" of people.

I'm sorry, but that's just not true. You can't change your born identity. Actually, I'm not sorry. I'm GLAD that it's not true!

Sorry, but that too is Pelagian, not Christian.

Sounds good and religious, but it's not true. The way to become more like Jesus is to look on HIM.

Again, Pelagianism.

To feel guilty about stuff and repenting of sin and calling ourselves sinners etc is fishing in the sea of oblivion, it's to try and remind God of sins he has already dealt with, it's to disagree with him on who he says we are.

Pelagianism.

A bad tree cannot produce good fruit. You must realize that you are a branch on a GOOD tree. You are good, and your produce fruit because you're connected to the tree.

I am not "good." I may have good intentions and deep within I have good desires, but I am not "good."

It is a balance; you are saved by faith but your works justify your faith.

Sounds okay, although could you please clarify what you mean by "works justify your faith"?
 
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suzie

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I have been saved by grace through faith--it was a gift from God. I was sealed unto eternal life adopted heir to the kingdom--I have full rights of His family. Once you belong as adopted unto the family of God, it does not become undone. You are His forever.

Nothing more can make you more saved.... no work....it is a gift and it is eternal.
 
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PaladinValer

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I have been saved by grace through faith--it was a gift from God. I was sealed unto eternal life adopted heir to the kingdom--I have full rights of His family. Once you belong as adopted unto the family of God, it does not become undone. You are His forever.

You are mistaking Baptism for assured salvation.

If you willfully sin just once, that is enough reason for God to Judge you to experience hell.

There is no "Get Out of Hell Free" card.
 
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IamAdopted

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You are mistaking Baptism for assured salvation.

If you willfully sin just once, that is enough reason for God to Judge you to experience hell.

There is no "Get Out of Hell Free" card.
If you sin just once after becoming one of Gods family does not send you to hell. For if we sin we can go to God and confess our sin. He is just and able to forgive us of our sin and CLEANSE us from all unrighteousness. But those who are born again actually hate sin. :) It just goes against their new nature that was born of God.
 
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suzie

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Quote:
Originally Posted by suzie
I have been saved by grace through faith--it was a gift from God. I was sealed unto eternal life adopted heir to the kingdom--I have full rights of His family. Once you belong as adopted unto the family of God, it does not become undone. You are His forever.

You are mistaking Baptism for assured salvation.

If you willfully sin just once, that is enough reason for God to Judge you to experience hell.

There is no "Get Out of Hell Free" card.


I certainly am not mistaking baptism for salvation. Baptism is an outward act of inner conversion. You can go to heaven and have salvation without being baptized. We are justified freely by grace through faith to all who believe. Justified--made not guilty. It is a one time act that lasts a lifetime!
We all sin--we no longer live to sin. We are no longer bound to sin but free by God's grace through Jesus Christ. Our sin--past present and future are forgiven.
 
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PaladinValer

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If you sin just once after becoming one of Gods family does not send you to hell. For if we sin we can go to God and confess our sin. He is just and able to forgive us of our sin and CLEANSE us from all unrighteousness. But those who are born again actually hate sin. :) It just goes against their new nature that was born of God.

If you sin, you have condemned yourself.

If you think it won't condemn you, that just makes it even worse.

OSAS is not ancient and is contrary to what has always been tought.

I certainly am not mistaking baptism for salvation. Baptism is an outward act of inner conversion. You can go to heaven and have salvation without being baptized. We are justified freely by grace through faith to all who believe. Justified--made not guilty. It is a one time act that lasts a lifetime!
We all sin--we no longer live to sin. We are no longer bound to sin but free by God's grace through Jesus Christ. Our sin--past present and future are forgiven.

Ditto my above.
 
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IamAdopted

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If you sin, you have condemned yourself.

If you think it won't condemn you, that just makes it even worse.

OSAS is not ancient and is contrary to what has always been tought.



Ditto my above.
I do not condemn myself for there is only one who condemns.. :) and He is for me and not against me.. For He forever lives to intercede for me. For there is therfore NO condemnation to me for I am in Christ Jesus. I hate sin. :) For I have been born again and have the Spirit of Christ in me. Jesus died for my past present and future sins but that does not mean that I go out and sin. But it does not mean I have not sinned. But if I do sin I have an advocate.
 
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PaladinValer

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I do not condemn myself for there is only one who condemns.

For someone who is so fond of sola scriptura, I'm surprised you ignore what the Holy Book says on the matter:

"Indeed, God did not send the Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him." -St. John 3:17

"Therefore you have no excuse, whoever you are, when you judge others; for in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, are doing the very same things." -Romans 2:1

and He is for me and not against me.

If you willingly sin, you are excommunicated yourself from Him.

For He forever lives to intercede for me. For there is therfore NO condemnation to me for I am in Christ Jesus. I hate sin.

You will be condemned for every willing sin that you are not penitent of.

And "hating sin" isn't an excuse. If anything, hating hate is contradictory.

For I have been born again and have the Spirit of Christ in me.

That means nothing if you sin and think nothing serious of it.

Jesus died for my past present and future sins but that does not mean that I go out and sin.

Because if you do so willingly, you will have condemned yourself.

But it does not mean I have not sinned. But if I do sin I have an advocate.

He'll Advocate that you weren't penitent if you aren't penitent. And you will not like the consequences.
 
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suzie

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Amen IamAdopted!!

By His blood I am saved. Jesus died so that I might have eternal life. As Iam states, Jesus is my advocate. Through Him I live eternally. I am the "kings kid" In the ancient times, when someone such as a slave was adopted into a family, they were given full heritage as sons. They had all rights as a full blooded son would have. They could not ever be "kicked out" or disinherited. This would be the understanding when it states that we are adopted into the kingdom. It would be understood as an eternal seal.
 
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IamAdopted

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For someone who is so fond of sola scriptura, I'm surprised you ignore what the Holy Book says on the matter:

"Indeed, God did not send the Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him." -St. John 3:17

"Therefore you have no excuse, whoever you are, when you judge others; for in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, are doing the very same things." -Romans 2:1



If you willingly sin, you are excommunicated yourself from Him.



You will be condemned for every willing sin that you are not penitent of.

And "hating sin" isn't an excuse. If anything, hating hate is contradictory.



That means nothing if you sin and think nothing serious of it.



Because if you do so willingly, you will have condemned yourself.



He'll Advocate that you weren't penitent if you aren't penitent. And you will not like the consequences.
Okay lets look at Romans a little deeper shall we..
Rom 1:28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper,
Rom 1:29 being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips,
Rom 1:30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents,
Rom 1:31 without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful;
Rom 1:32 and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.
Rom 2:1 Therefore you have no excuse, everyone of you who passes judgment, for in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things.
Rom 2:2 And we know that the judgment of God rightly falls upon those who practice such things.
Rom 2:3 But do you suppose this, O man, when you pass judgment on those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God?
Rom 2:4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?
[QUOTE]If you willingly sin, you are excommunicated yourself from Him.
[/QUOTE] Jesus lives in me by His Spirit How can I possible do what you say here.?
You will be condemned for every willing sin that you are not penitent of.
Rom 5:16 The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification.
Rom 5:17 For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.
Rom 5:18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.
Rom 5:19 For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.
Rom 5:20 The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,
Rom 5:21 so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 
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mark kennedy

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I don't think you can. I think faith alone can not save you.

Yes you can but it will be as by fire:

If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. (1 Cor 3:14, 15)​

Justification is by grace through faith:

But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:... Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. (Romans 3:21-22, 27, 28)​

Surely you will quote the passage in James that says faith without works is dead. The irony of that statement is that he is rebuking Jewish Christians who were still still being lured by a false sense of security from deeds of the law (i.e. works). The fact is you are saved (not can be, but are) by faith apart from works. The thing is it's a miserable way to make it into heaven because the reward you receive which are the works of grace last forever. The things you pursue in this life that you do instead of letting the grace within you do it's work just get burned up. Those carnal believers who arrive with only their hope are still saved but only themselves while those who labor as disciples and become disciple makers shine with the brightness of the sun.

And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever. (Danial 12:3)​

By the way, did you know that justification and righteousness are two forms of the same word? You are saved (justified) by faith for good works (righteousness deeds) not by them.

Grace and peace,
Mark
 
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"We confess faith alone, but not a faith that is alone." -Calvin

Faith alone justifies the sinner before God, but good works are the innevitable and nigh-immediate result of that blessed regeneration.

Luther, Calvin, Melanchton, Chemnitz, Beza, and Knox though so. And who am I to disagree with the great reformational giants when they actually agree on something?
 
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holo

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Yes, you will have condemned yourself each time you willfully sin.
No, even if our own hearts condemn us, He is greater. There IS NO condemnation for me.

12 Therefore, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed me, not only in my presence, but much more now in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling

St. Paul's Letter to the Christian Philippians, chapter 2, verse 12.

I'll trust the Apostle's word, with all due respect.
As will I. Read the rest of Paul's letters. Se how he describes salvation and victory and faith as GIFTS.

The Holy Spirit is God, not "the power of God." Furthermore, while He

Furthermore, we must cooperate with the Holy Spirit, or else nothing is done. We are not robots or atomatons.
How do you cooperate with the Spirit? What is it the Spirit can't do, that He needs you to do?

We are still sinners for we still sin both inadvertently and willfully.
How many times are the believers called sinners? There is ONE instance of Paul referring to himself as "the greatest sinner," and I'll bet any day that he was talking about his past. But even if he didn't, the NT refers to the believer as a SAINT 63 times.

You were a sinner by nature, you were born a sinner. But haven't you been born again? Would God give birth to a new sinner?

And yes, it is our nature to sin.
Speak for yourself. It's not MY nature to sin :)

Baptism may wipe original sin away
IMO baptism doesn't wipe anything. Paul said he was GLAD he didn't baptise people. It was sort of a sign, like circumcision. Water doesn't change how God sees us.

We may have a new identity, but it is as among those seeking reconciliation and have thusly been born from above. It doesn't mean an automatic free ticket out of hell.
God wouldn't send his own children to hell.

Is. You are still a sinner, as am I. To deny that is to willfully sin.
Well, GOD doesn't call me a sinner, so... :)

That is Pelagianism, not Christianity. Pelagianism is not compatable and is condemned by Scripture, Tradition, and Reason.
I wouldn't know. I don't know what pelagianism is.

Knowledge? That is Gnostic. Salvation isn't a secret but available to even the most severely "retarded" of people.
Paul often referred to the gospel as a "secret" or a "mystery" - God's plan was hidden from men until Jesus had died and rose from the dead and gave us His own Spirit.

I am not "good." I may have good intentions and deep within I have good desires, but I am not "good."
Sucks to be you then :)
 
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Fireinfolding

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For someone who is so fond of sola scriptura, I'm surprised you ignore what the Holy Book says on the matter:

"Indeed, God did not send the Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him." -St. John 3:17

"Therefore you have no excuse, whoever you are, when you judge others; for in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, are doing the very same things." -Romans 2:1



If you willingly sin, you are excommunicated yourself from Him.



You will be condemned for every willing sin that you are not penitent of.

And "hating sin" isn't an excuse. If anything, hating hate is contradictory.



That means nothing if you sin and think nothing serious of it.



Because if you do so willingly, you will have condemned yourself.



He'll Advocate that you weren't penitent if you aren't penitent. And you will not like the consequences.

Your post to IAA made no sense whatsoever PaladinValer. Your post to her appeared like a diliberate attempt to disagree just because you wanted to. There was nothing invalid in her post and nothing valid against what she posted.

I never saw anything quite like that.


Fireinfolding
 
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IamAdopted

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For someone who is so fond of sola scriptura, I'm surprised you ignore what the Holy Book says on the matter:
Says on what matter?
Therefore you have no excuse, whoever you are, when you judge others; for in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, are doing the very same things." -Romans 2:1
Paul is talking about judging others if you are doing the same thing. Kind of like the Pot and kettle. :)
If you willingly sin, you are excommunicated yourself from Him.
now that would be impossible to do for since He lives in me. :) He has promised to never leave nor forsake me. It says no where if. :)
You will be condemned for every willing sin that you are not penitent of.

And "hating sin" isn't an excuse. If anything, hating hate is contradictory
:scratch:
That means nothing if you sin and think nothing serious of it
Who is willfully sinning?
He'll Advocate that you weren't penitent if you aren't penitent. And you will not like the consequences.
This makes no sense. For it is His death and ressurection that I have my rightousness. Not in anything I do. He is my advocate. He is my hope. :)
 
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Yekcidmij

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Yes, you will have condemned yourself each time you willfully sin. That one sin done contemplatively is enough to be Judged to experience hell. So you cannot just repent once: you must be contrite, repentant, confessatory, and penitent each time.

What if you sin but forgot that you did? For example: If I sinned on a Monday morning 2 weeks ago, but forgot that I did it, what happens then?

I think what I'm saying is what if I willfully sinned but didnt realize it?
 
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PaladinValer

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Paul is talking about judging others if you are doing the same thing. Kind of like the Pot and kettle.

He's talking about how any sin you do condemns yourself.

now that would be impossible to do for since He lives in me.

He doesn't in those who are not penitent.

He has promised to never leave nor forsake me. It says no where if.

He will always receive people once again, for Baptism and Chrism are indeed forever, but if you turn, you are squandered it.

Who is willfully sinning? This makes no sense.

I never accused anyone.

For it is His death and ressurection that I have my rightousness. Not in anything I do. He is my advocate. He is my hope.

Hewill Advocate you are not worthy if you live in unpenitent sin.

What if you sin but forgot that you did? For example: If I sinned on a Monday morning 2 weeks ago, but forgot that I did it, what happens then?

That certainly is a problem, isn't it?

I think what I'm saying is what if I willfully sinned but didnt realize it?

That is called "ego."
 
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IamAdopted

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He's talking about how any sin you do condemns yourself.
Rom 2:1 Therefore you have no excuse, everyone of you who passes judgment, for in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things.
Rom 2:2 And we know that the judgment of God rightly falls upon those who practice such things.
Rom 2:3 But do you suppose this, O man, when you pass judgment on those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God?

He doesn't in those who are not penitent.
He sure does. This is what born again means. When we come to Christ He dwells with in us. We have turned from our sin and turned to Christ. :)


He will always receive people once again, for Baptism and Chrism are indeed forever, but if you turn, you are squandered it.
He never leaves them. Once we come to Christ we are His. Sealed with the Holy Spirit. We have a new nature. :) He spoke and said I am with you Always. He did not speak and say I am with you until you sin then I leave but I will come back once you are pennit. This cannot be found in scripture.
Hewill Advocate you are not worthy if you live in unpenitent sin.
I wasn't worthy in the first place and neither is anyone else. :) This is why Christ came. For it is not in what I do but in What HE has done.
 
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