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is creating with age deceptive?

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Mallon

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why would you want proof? have my words contradicted the words of God ? or have they just contradicted your thinking and made you think about your own practices and beliefs?
I'm not asking for proof of anything, archaeologist. But you've been very outspoken lately about the meaninglessness of of science in light of your faith. And yet, you claim to be an archaeologist with four degrees! I just can't imagine how someone who devalues science so much (unless it agrees with the Bible) can earn four degrees in the field! So again, I ask you to explain your approach to science, and share with us some of the research you've done. I'm assuming you have the experience to validate your claims.
 
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KerrMetric

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And yet, you claim to be an archaeologist with four degrees!


LOL.

He did? LOL LOL

One thing about being a scientist is I can spot them a mile away and either my scidar is off or ...............
 
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shernren

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LOL.

He did? LOL LOL

One thing about being a scientist is I can spot them a mile away and either my scidar is off or ...............
... or you broke it scanning the folks at AiG. ;)
 
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archaeologist

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And yet, you claim to be an archaeologist with four degrees

SIGH.... all i have said was that i have 4 degrees. if that is a problem for you then take it up with the schools who graduated me.

also it was said to show that even an educated person can reject science's claims for the truth. nothing more.

just can't imagine how someone who devalues science so much (unless it agrees with the Bible) can earn four degrees in the field!

i have never said what field they are in and it is not the issue. the issue is God has shown me the errors of many fields and the truthfulness of His word so i proclaim that over secular science.

I ask you to explain your approach to science, and share with us some of the research you've done. I'm assuming you have the experience to validate your claims

you do a lot of assuming and so far you have been nothing but wrong. the issue here inthis thread is--was God deceptive by creating with age.

i said NO. and you have yet, among others, to prove how it is deceptive and that God was being deceptive.

all that has been trotted out as 'evidence' has been the time light from a star travels to the earth. i see no proof of that position nor any rebuttals to the article i posted which showed that light seems to be reaching earth a lot faster than scientists say.

INSTEAD, you try to make me the issue because you have no defense for your thinking.

But you've been very outspoken lately about the meaninglessness of of science in light of your faith.

yes as secular science and its conclusions, theories and so on are not the truth. sure they can find out how something works, God has not hidden that from us BUT that does not grant secular science, some thing that is not of God the right to declare how God did something.
----------------------------
awhile back you mentioned scientific truth and spiritual truth,well here is a rebuttal to that statement. taken from 'Being a Christian in Science' by Walter Hearn, pg. 68:

"warren weaver agreed at first glance scientific truth seemed much more secure thanreligious truth, but saw that, at its core,science was actually far from solid. although he had no doubts about scientific reasoning as a useful tool, to him it had deep philosophical flaws. deductive logic suffered frombeing 'quite powerless to create truths--it can only reveal previously and unconsciously assumed truth.'"

scientific truths are greatly flawed because they omit The Truth--Jesus-- from their equations, and conclusions.
 
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shernren

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awhile back you mentioned scientific truth and spiritual truth,well here is a rebuttal to that statement. taken from 'Being a Christian in Science' by Walter Hearn, pg. 68:

"warren weaver agreed at first glance scientific truth seemed much more secure thanreligious truth, but saw that, at its core,science was actually far from solid. although he had no doubts about scientific reasoning as a useful tool, to him it had deep philosophical flaws. deductive logic suffered frombeing 'quite powerless to create truths--it can only reveal previously and unconsciously assumed truth.'"

scientific truths are greatly flawed because they omit The Truth--Jesus-- from their equations, and conclusions.

Pray tell, how exactly is scientific reasoning "flawed"? And what does deductive reasoning have to do with that?
 
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Mallon

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SIGH.... all i have said was that i have 4 degrees. if that is a problem for you then take it up with the schools who graduated me...
i have never said what field they are in and it is not the issue.
You brought up the fact that you have four degrees in an effort to validate your claims (as you admit above). So I am going to pursue that angle. What fields are your four degrees in? Are any of them in science?

all that has been trotted out as 'evidence' has been the time light from a star travels to the earth. i see no proof of that position nor any rebuttals to the article i posted which showed that light seems to be reaching earth a lot faster than scientists say.
The idea that c is changing is a PRATT and has been addressed here many times, so that is very likely why people are so slow to try to refute it again. shernren and busterdog got into a long discussion over this very topic some time ago, if you want to search archives to see what was said.

that does not grant secular science, some thing that is not of God the right to declare how God did something.
You know, archaeologist, I might just as easily take the same fundamentalist line on Hebrew cosmology, provide you with a bunch of relevant Scripture (Job 38:13-14; Isaiah 40:22; Matthew 4:8; 1 Samuel 2:8; 1 Chronicles 16:30; Job 9:6, 38:4; Psalm 75:3, 96:10, 104:5; Genesis 7:11, 8:2; Deuteronomy 28:12; 2 Kings 7:2; Job 37:18; Malachi 3:10; Joshua 10:12; Psalm 19:4-6; Ecclesiastes 1:5), and the reasoning you would provide to argue against geocentricity and the flatness of the earth would be the same reasoning that I would use to argue that your literal interpretation of Genesis is incorrect.

scientific truths are greatly flawed because they omit The Truth--Jesus-- from their equations, and conclusions.
How do you suggest we squeeze him in, then?
F = ma + Jesus?
The minute we materialize God by trying to force Him into science is the minute we open Him up to empirical falsification. And that's just what the atheists want. I advise strongly against it.
 
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Tinker Grey

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How do you suggest we squeeze him in, then?
F = ma + Jesus?
The minute we materialize God by trying to force Him into science is the minute we open Him up to empirical falsification. And that's just what the atheists want. I advise strongly against it.

QFT.

This is what I have asked several times that all those who accuse won't answer. HOW DO WE PUT GOD IN OUR EQUATIONS!
 
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archaeologist

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You brought up the fact that you have four degrees in an effort to validate your claims (as you admit above). So I am going to pursue that angle. What fields are your four degrees in? Are any of them in science?

i am not the issue and stop using it as a diversion.

well then let's here your argument instead of you always talking about how you would do it...

i do not believe that creating with age is deceptive. rather it is practical and giventhat God has the abilityof foresight, he would know exactly what would be needed and when it would need to be created...

let's hear your credible rebutall to this and if your going to make statements i hope you will provide links so i can check out your views.

also one question, when man first appeared in the evolutionary process, was it a child, full grown, a teenager or what? where did it learn its parenting skills since it had no one to teach him/her?

your up.
 
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Mallon

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i am not the issue and stop using it as a diversion.
Again, the reason I am pursuing this is because you brought it up. If you the number of degrees you have is not an issue, then I fail to understand why you brought it up to begin with. Your reluctance to answer my question is leading me to believe that you have no degree in any scientific field (university accreditation aside), and that your criticism of "atheistic science" is without merit. I could be wrong, but without any way of telling, I could be right. The spirit leads me to believe that I am right, and this view is not in opposition to the Bible, soo... ;)

i do not believe that creating with age is deceptive. rather it is practical and giventhat God has the abilityof foresight, he would know exactly what would be needed and when it would need to be created...
If God had the foresight you say He did, why would He still create an aged earth knowing the problems it would eventually cause for His people? Again, surely an omnipotent God could have created an earth that looked young and served the same practical purpose as one that looked old.

let's hear your credible rebutall to this and if your going to make statements i hope you will provide links so i can check out your views.
My "credible rebuttal" is simply that the earth looks old because it is old. It is the way God made it (Psalm 19:1-2; Romans 1:20). No apologetics necessary.

also one question, when man first appeared in the evolutionary process, was it a child, full grown, a teenager or what? where did it learn its parenting skills since it had no one to teach him/her?
It was a population. Populations evolve; individuals don't. That's one of the basic tenets of evolutionary theory. Parenting skills were evolved, too. As were hunting skills and speaking skills.
 
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archaeologist

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[QUOTEAgain, the reason I am pursuing this is because you brought it up. If you the number of degrees you have is not an issue, then I fail to understand why you brought it up to begin with.][/quote]

could it be that i used it as an illustration to make a point?? if i wanted to brag i would have given more details.

If God had the foresight you say He did,

are you doubting God's capibilities? he would not be God if he did not know everything even before it took place.

why would He still create an aged earth knowing the problems it would eventually cause for His people

men and women do not tell perspective mates that they have money for the simple fact that they want to see if the other person really loves them.

God is seeing who really loves Him, who really believes His word, even wih scant evidence to prove what He is saying.

here is psalm 19: 1 The heavens declare the glory of God;
And the firmament shows His handiwork.
2 Day unto day utters speech,
And night unto night reveals knowledge

and romans 1:20:

20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse

PLEASE show me where old age is referrenced in those passages.

[QUOTEIt was a population. Populations evolve; individuals don't][/quote]

that is news to the evolutionists who state that individuals evolved from a common ancestor. but that is typical of evolutionists who like changing the theory whenever they come across a problem they can't answer.
 
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Mallon

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could it be that i used it as an illustration to make a point?? if i wanted to brag i would have given more details.
Duly noted. I hear you loud and clear.

are you doubting God's capibilities?
Nope. Just your interpretation of how you think God created the earth (with age). Please don't confuse your interpretation with reality.

God is seeing who really loves Him, who really believes His word, even wih scant evidence to prove what He is saying.
So you're saying that God created the earth to look old in order to trick people into thinking that it is, and thus fall from His grace forever??? That sounds mighty deceptive to me!!!

PLEASE show me where old age is referrenced in those passages.
It isn't. But then again, I never said it was. You're putting words in my mouth. I referenced those passages because they imply that we can learn about God from His creation. If God's creation does not reflect its actual history, as you believe, then these passages would be meaningless. Metamorphic rocks cannot speak of God's glory if He created them with false histories to deceive us.

that is news to the evolutionists who state that individuals evolved from a common ancestor.
No it isn't. Nobody has ever said that. You simply do not understand evolution. That much is sorely obvious.
 
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archaeologist

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Nope. Just your interpretation of how you think God created the earth (with age). Please don't confuse your interpretation with reality

you said 'if' so i am concluding that you do not believe He has foresight. 'interpretation' is a big cloak to hide under and a good way to avoid thinking about something. If God knows all tings, wouldn't my stating He had foresight be more fact than interpretation?

So you're saying that God created the earth to look old in order to trick people into thinking that it is

He is not tricking anyone. He only said in the beginning, it is the secular scientists that declare the world old. creating with age is not deceptive, but again a neccessity.

It isn't. But then again, I never said it was. You're putting words in my mouth. I referenced those passages because they imply that we can learn about God from His creation

no i am not---here is your exact quote:

My "credible rebuttal" is simply that the earth looks old because it is old. It is the way God made it (Psalm 19:1-2; Romans 1:20). No apologetics necessary.

no implication that we can learn about God from creation BUT a DIRECT statement from you thatsays God made it that way.

Metamorphic rocks cannot speak of God's glory if He created them with false histories to deceive us.

God has never said they had a history. He just said He created them. It is secular science that is trying to date the rocks and say something different than what God said.

we do not know how old the rocks are, only God does. he was one of three beings present at the time so how can science say differently?

No it isn't. Nobody has ever said that. You simply do not understand evolution. That much is sorely obvious

if i had a dime for everytime someone said that to me, i could retire. problem is i do understand the theory and i know for a fact that evolutionists say that very same thing that i did:

The central idea of biological evolution is that all life on Earth shares a common ancestor, just as you and your cousins share a common grandmother

http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evosite/evo101/IIntro.shtml

in doing some checking, i see your definition there as well and a few others. evolution seems to change colors with every field it is associated.
nice game yu got going there, don't like what someone says, or they prove something wrong with evolution, you can just change the meaning and say, 'well that is astro evolution or scientific evolution'

the definitions change as it becomes more evident that secular scientists can't prove its existence.
 
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Mallon

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creating with age is not deceptive, but again a neccessity.
A necessity? The omphalos hypothesis is neither biblical or scientific. I would hardly call it a "necessity."

no i am not---here is your exact quote:
I think you misunderstood the context of my citations, then...
(1) You agreed that world does indeed appear to have age.
(2) David and Paul wrote that God's creation accurately reflects the qualities of our Lord.
(3) Because our Lord is real and acts in real history, a creation that reflects a false history cannot accurately profess our Lord. That is my argument.

God has never said they had a history.
But the rocks do. When you find a fossil in a rock, you don't just assume that God created it in situ, right? Similarly, we you find a meteor crator in the groud, you don't just assume God created it as-is, either. There's a history to be told there.

if i had a dime for everytime someone said that to me, i could retire.
Maybe you should take that as a hint. Anyone with a solid understanding of evolution knows that populations evolve. NOT individuals. Here's a slew of basic evolution websites that claim as much:

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evolution-definition.html
http://www.biologycorner.com/bio3/notes-chap17.html
http://www.evoled.org/lessons/causes.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Introduction_to_evolution

Yes, ultimately, all individuals share the same common ancestor. But evolution occurs at the level of the population, NOT the individual.

the definitions change as it becomes more evident that secular scientists can't prove its existence.
Surely you must accept some level of evolution, archaeologist. Surely you accept that which other YECs term 'microevolution.' Right??? It strikes me that you are so dead-set against evolution, that you are willing to reject anything even remotely related to it, pushing yourself further and further into the extreme.
 
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jckstraw72

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this whole creating with age thing doesnt even make sense ... you cant create something with age -- if its newly created then it has no age, no matter what it looks like!

perhaps it appeared as what we today, in our fallen world, call mature, but thats not "creating with age"
 
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archaeologist

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72--

this whole creating with age thing doesnt even make sense ... you cant create something with age -- if its newly created then it has no age, no matter what it looks like!

maybe i should have said 'appearance of age' instead of just 'age'. does that make it clearer?

mallon:

necessity? The omphalos hypothesis is neither biblical or scientific. I would hardly call it a "necessity

and why would 'neccessity' not be Biblical? God, knowing what he wants to do and is needed, would certainly plan things out since he is a God of order and not confusion. we see that in the entire 6 days of creation.

I think you misunderstood the context of my citations, then

no ididn't. you explicitly stated that God did it that way then placed the verses. at no time were you referencing anything else or inferrring anything else.

But the rocks do. When you find a fossil in a rock, you don't just assume that God created it in situ, right?

no the rocks do not. secular science says that and they cannot come up with a fool proof system of dating nor prove they are right. such dates are not verifiable and it is a 'take our word for it because our machine says we are right.'

those fossils could have been put there at anytime in the last 10,000 years. secular science is wrong

Similarly, we you find a meteor crator in the groud, you don't just assume God created it as-is, either. There's a history to be told there

no, the weak link is the scientist's guesstimates and dating of the object. science thinks they are right but such notions are based solely on asumptions. there is no independent confirmation, corroboration etc.

so far all you have done is shown me circular reasoning at its finest.

Maybe you should take that as a hint

ha ha. i understand it quite well and it continually changes to meet problems adherents can't solve. truth never changes, which is a big strike against evolution, thus that is why we do not need to make creation into a science in the secular mold. it was an act done once and the results are seen every day.

we do not need to make predictions because we know what is going to happen, we do not need millions of years because we know by our observations that the results are quite active in all life today.

oh i understand it all right, it is an attempt to deceive people and get them away from God.

Yes, ultimately, all individuals share the same common ancestor. But evolution occurs at the level of the population, NOT the individual

i don't buy into this latest defintion either as change comes through the individual, if evolution existed. the group would change over time because individuals changed. it is just another evolutionist revision to avoid the truth.

Surely you must accept some level of evolution, archaeologist. Surely you accept that which other YECs term 'microevolution.'

sorry but i have come to the conclusion that if ipreach that evolution does not exist thenit cannot exist inany form. one has to be consistant with what they believe or they become hypocrites.

what is termed micro-evolution are results that have been corrupted by the fall of man, when sin entered into the world. genes act the way they do because they are no longer functioning as God created them.

sorry to burst your bubble but i see YEC'ers who accept micro-evolution as compromisers and God does not compromise. there isn't one instance in the Bible where God compromised, He may have listened to abrahm's pleas concerning destroying sodom and gomorrah but that was also to demonstrate that God knows better than we do. there weren't even 10 souls in those 2 towns who were righteous.

God didn't compromise at creation, with the Flood, at sodom or gomorrah and He won't compromise at the final judgement. God remains God and is not reduced to wishy-washy super being because some creations cannot believe His words.

It strikes me that you are so dead-set against evolution, that you are willing to reject anything even remotely related to it, pushing yourself further and further into the extreme.

no. the truth isn't extreme, it is right no matter how hard naysayers and doubters twist the words and present their 'evidence'.

the Bible says God created in 6 days, secular man says it took Him longer. if you serve God, then why are you listening to secular man? a good servant presents His masters view and does not compromise.

'friendship with the world is enmity with God'.
 
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Citanul

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maybe i should have said 'appearance of age' instead of just 'age'. does that make it clearer?

OK, now I'm confused. Earlier in this thread you said

i never said 'looked old' i said created with age

http://www.biblegateway.com
God did not create a world that looked old

First you claimed that the world didn't have an appearance of age (because that's what "looking old" means), and now you do. What's going on?
 
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Mallon

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and why would 'neccessity' not be Biblical? God, knowing what he wants to do and is needed, would certainly plan things out since he is a God of order and not confusion. we see that in the entire 6 days of creation.
It's not biblical because the Bible doesn't say that the earth was created to look old.
Why do you even think the earth looks old, anyway? It's secular science that has come to that conclusion, and we all know how much you loathe secular science.

no the rocks do not. secular science says that and they cannot come up with a fool proof system of dating nor prove they are right. such dates are not verifiable and it is a 'take our word for it because our machine says we are right.'
Again, why do you accept that the earth looks old, then???

no, the weak link is the scientist's guesstimates and dating of the object. science thinks they are right but such notions are based solely on asumptions. there is no independent confirmation, corroboration etc.
archaeologist, if you find a meteor in the ground that's 10 km across (like the Chicxulub Crater near Mexico), people from all around the world would have felt the preceeding impact, and the few remaining survivors likely would have written about it. Most of the craters of the earth are invariably more than 10,000 years old.

so far all you have done is shown me circular reasoning at its finest.
I don't think that accusation carries as much weight as you might like.

ha ha. i understand it quite well and it continually changes to meet problems adherents can't solve. truth never changes, which is a big strike against evolution, thus that is why we do not need to make creation into a science in the secular mold. it was an act done once and the results are seen every day.
Just saying you understand something doesn't mean you understand it. You have to demonstrate your understanding, which you haven't done yet.

i don't buy into this latest defintion either as change comes through the individual, if evolution existed. the group would change over time because individuals changed. it is just another evolutionist revision to avoid the truth.
Individuals DON'T change over time, though, archaeologist. You're stuck with the DNA you're born with. What changes over time is the ratio of different DNA (or more specifically alleles) in a population. Again, populations evolve. Individuals don't. This has been recognized since the development of evolutionary theory. Just saying, "No it duzint! Nuh-uh!!!" and sticking your fingers in your ears doesn't change that fact.

sorry but i have come to the conclusion that if ipreach that evolution does not exist thenit cannot exist inany form. one has to be consistant with what they believe or they become hypocrites.
That never stopped you from using the products of secular science...

sorry to burst your bubble but i see YEC'ers who accept micro-evolution as compromisers and God does not compromise.
Hey! Great! That flies in the face of your next sentence, though...

no. the truth isn't extreme, it is right no matter how hard naysayers and doubters twist the words and present their 'evidence'.

the Bible says God created in 6 days, secular man says it took Him longer. if you serve God, then why are you listening to secular man? a good servant presents His masters view and does not compromise.
The Bible also says that the earth takes shape like clay under a seal (Job 38:14). And it says that the earth sits on pillars (Job 9:6) and that there are windows in the sky (Gen 7:11). Lest you be a hypocrite, I hope you believe these things, too, rather than compromise the Bible for the theories of secular man.
 
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archaeologist

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It's not biblical because the Bible doesn't say that the earth was created to look old

i see a big difference between the descriptions 'created to look old' and 'created with age'.

since it was all good, i am sure the universe and the world and that new car look and smell. createdwith age just means 'maturity was given to the creation and that the purpose of God dictated he form it was to take.

i see no problem with adam being 20 ears old at the time of creation or even 30 for that matter, or whatever the age he looked. i see no problem with any of God's creation being created with 'maturity' since God knew what He wanted to do.

i do see a problem of adding in secular man's thinking and saying, this is the way God did it.

Again, why do you accept that the earth looks old, then???

because, it makes sense and fits God's plan. an evoltionary odeldoesn't make sense as it has no plan nor purpose, even with God guiding it.

if you find a meteor in the ground that's 10 km across (like the Chicxulub Crater near Mexico), people from all around the world would have felt the preceeding impact, and the few remaining survivors likely would have written about it. Most of the craters of the earth are invariably more than 10,000 years old

there are many problems with this scenario:
1. evolutionists believe that man cold not write till much later in his existence, so there would be no one writing about it.

2. if these happened pre-flood and anyone wrote about it, we wouldn't be aware of it as all pre-flood records were destroyed.

3. it assumes we have found all written records and that all survived the countless tragedies that befall the earth throughout history

4. no proof there were survivors.

5. assumes that there were enough people to know about it.

6. assumes a longer history to the earth than is recorded in scriptures. who is to say that that meteor did not land after the fall and before man filled the earth?

7. assumes that secular dating systms are perfect and always correct.

and so on

Just saying you understand something doesn't mean you understand it. You have to demonstrate your understanding, which you haven't done yet

no, what you are saying is, that i haven't done it the way you want me to.

Again, populations evolve.

another evolutionist smoke and mirror trick. populations are made up of individuals and unless the individual evolves, then populations do not.

That flies in the face of your next sentence, though...

not at all. the truth cuts both ways, it is down the middle so to speak and not a fringe player. extremes are fringe aspects.

Lest you be a hypocrite, I hope you believe these things, too, rather than compromise the Bible for the theories of secular man.

now you are being more literal than i am. there is a big difference insaying 'windows in heaven' and 'God spoke and the land brought forth all animals' .

the former is a metaphor the latter is literal action. creation is not allegorical, but a revelation of how God acted. the reason we know it is not allegorical, is that the results of creation continue as spoken in the first chapter of the Bible.

the Bible says, 'from the dust you were made and to the dust you shall return' open any coffin and you will see that take place.

the bible says, each species reproduces after its kind, we see today that that is true. the hybrid experiments confirm this fact.

we also see that God did not say eah species eolved to where iI want it and then i gave them reproductive organs so that the continuing of the species changes.

no,the reproductive organs were there fromthe sart and He said, 'they prodcued after their kind'.

the wording of the scriptures is very clear, there was no evolution involved (in any form).
 
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archaeologist

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That never stopped you from using the products of secular science...

i answered this in another thread but i wanted to add. sure i use products derived from secular science but i do not incorporate such things or ideas into my belief system and say look we must also believe science because it has given us these wonderful things.

God remains God and science is relegated to its rightful place and we can say, 'look at what God did, he gave intelligence to everyone, His gifts were given to all not just those who believed in Him.'

why can we say that, so that secular man cannot have an argument against God in the final day and complain... 'you played favorites and we didn't have the tools needed to believe'

sorry but this argument quoted above, is just an excuse to accept secular thinking and ways into a place God said it did not belong.
 
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