Too much carbon-14 to support old earth?

Status
Not open for further replies.

LewisWildermuth

Senior Veteran
May 17, 2002
2,526
128
51
Bloomington, Illinois
✟11,875.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
One note: I don't subscribe to Nature, so I'd have to spend $30. to read the last article. From the abstract they refer to "highly radioactive" which I am assuming to mean MUCH more than the very low level c-14 activity I'm talking about. If my assumption is wrong, I apologize. For now, it seems like this article is not relevant.
Walk onto any college campus, the most likely will either have a hard copy or you will be able to access it through a computer through an online service, many larger libraries will have these things too.

The data is out there, IRC does not want you to do this because it shows how dishonest they are in their articles.

 
Upvote 0

laptoppop

Servant of the living God
May 19, 2006
2,219
189
Southern California
✟23,920.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Is the Nature article talking about excess carbon-14 or is it talking about bulk gross radioactivity? The abstract leads me to believe the article is not relevant.

edit add: If the article really is addressing excess carbon-14, I might be willing to buy it. If its just talking about rogue bones that are excessively radioactive (which is how it looks), it sounds interesting, but not part of this topic.
 
Upvote 0

Mallon

Senior Veteran
Mar 6, 2006
6,109
296
✟22,892.00
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Private
Laptoppop, I don't know if you're aware of it, but there's one good search engine out there that might be of interest to you: scholar.google.com. It amounts to a quick-and-easy scan of the scientific literature out there available on the search topic (though it is by no means as exhaustive as, say, Web of Science). A quick search for "C14 contamination fossil" yields 982 results, some of which are bound to be pertinent to the issue you're interested in. Have a look for yourself (but be careful -- there's some obvious self-published garbage on there).
I certainly appreciate your refreshing inquisitiveness. As I've heard many a creationist say, "We know the 'who' (God), so we don't have to know the 'how'." That's the lamest excuse for ignorance I've ever heard, and as my new signature suggests, it's not even biblical. If you're still having a hard time finding the answers you want, then I might suggest giving into the temptation of practicing... SECULAR SCIENCE!!! :eek:

EDIT: Not sure why I originally addressed this post to "John." Oops!
 
Upvote 0

laptoppop

Servant of the living God
May 19, 2006
2,219
189
Southern California
✟23,920.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Thanks -- I'll try looking for data that way.

I like your new sig too.

I wish there were a way to include the supernatural more directly into the scientific method. To me, that's its biggest weakness for things like origin studies. I'm totally willing to consider that the flood may have involved mutliple miraculous elements. The story specifically lists a few - God leading the animals to the ark, God shutting the door, etc. I just tend to prefer non-miraculous explanations where possible. I also think we can investigate the aftermath of miracles -- for example we can tell that the water pitcher now really does hold wine -- but if we're not careful, we'll think the wine in the pitcher came from vines.

(No biggie - my name is actually Lee.)

Lord bless!

Edit: (added) OK, I've looked at Google Scholar (should have thought of that earlier -- duh!). I see some articles that may have some relevance. It will take some time to collect them and find free versions of the applicable ones. I'll try to post some links sometime soon - but I've *really* got to get back to work, so it may be a while. Thanks!
 
Upvote 0

shernren

you are not reading this.
Feb 17, 2005
8,463
515
37
Shah Alam, Selangor
Visit site
✟26,381.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
In Relationship
Please look at the paper I cited in the OP. This is not a rare finding - there are a ton of cases, and people have tried extraordinary things to avoid contamination.

I'd hate to sound contemptuous, but right now most of the raw research material has been contributed by evolutionists. Maybe you could go look this up: just how do radiocarbon daters avoid contamination? Since you assert that contamination is avoided to the extent that only a young origin could possibly account for C14, it seems the prerogative is on you to show just how you reach this conclusion.
 
Upvote 0

laptoppop

Servant of the living God
May 19, 2006
2,219
189
Southern California
✟23,920.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
I'd hate to sound contemptuous, but right now most of the raw research material has been contributed by evolutionists.
Given the ratio of evolutionists versus creationists, isn't that virtually always the case? However, truth is truth. Its good to be aware of predispositions, but I have no problem supporting my positions using materials from people who don't agree with me.
Maybe you could go look this up: just how do radiocarbon daters avoid contamination? Since you assert that contamination is avoided to the extent that only a young origin could possibly account for C14, it seems the prerogative is on you to show just how you reach this conclusion.
I could be wrong - (please forgive me if so), but this sounds like you didn't check out the paper cited in the OP.

Anyway - I'll be back in a few days hopefully with some links for us to discuss.
 
Upvote 0

Assyrian

Basically pulling an Obama (Thanks Calminian!)
Mar 31, 2006
14,868
991
Wales
✟27,286.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Haven't we got this the wrong way around? It is up to the people making the claim, ICR, to do the research needed to eliminate contamination as an explanation. The simple fact is C14 is produced in the atmosphere by neutrons hitting N14. There is also plenty of radioactive decay going on in the earth producing neutrons and there are Nitrogen atoms in fossils, fossil fuels and diamonds.

There is a very simple way for creationists to calculate, based on creationist presuppositions, how much of the C14 is original and how much is contamination. All your samples are the same age. All would have started off with the same ration of C14 to C12. All the C14 has been decaying at the same rate. It is possible to add more C14 to a fossil, through contamination by CO2, bacteria, fungi, or through neutrons hitting N14 atoms. However there is no way to selectively remove more C14 from the sample.

So given samples the same age, having undergone the same amount of C14 decay, the differences between them will be due to added C14 contamination. The amount of original C14 will be seen in the samples with the lowest C14 measurements. But that's zero.
 
Upvote 0

shernren

you are not reading this.
Feb 17, 2005
8,463
515
37
Shah Alam, Selangor
Visit site
✟26,381.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
In Relationship
PDF is supposed to stand for Portable Document Format, but I could think of a few anagrams for it involving some far nastier words. I don't normally (as far as possible) download PDFs at college, hence the initial comments without reading the paper. Which were, by the way, spot-on: all procedures used to avoid contamination are described in detail, but not a word at all is devoted to the environmental conditions.

I zoomed in on the section on coals, since it has the most publicly accessible information (county, coal mine region, etc.) and after a crash course in US geography XD it seems that practically every coal mine listed is close to a uranium deposit of some sort. Unfortunately, more PDFs killed my Mozilla, costing a few hours of work and another half-hour in restart time fiddling with an apparently unstable connection. (Admittedly, I was careless and rash. But still!)

I should be able to post something fairly substantial in about an hour. Ironically, a lot of them are going to be PDFs. :D :D
 
Upvote 0

shernren

you are not reading this.
Feb 17, 2005
8,463
515
37
Shah Alam, Selangor
Visit site
✟26,381.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
In Relationship
Or at least they were going to be. Then I hit upon this lifesaver:

http://energy.er.usgs.gov/products/databases/CoalQual/index.htm

from which I was able to obtain median* uranium concentration of USGS coal samples from all the counties named in the RATE report. And guess what the data looks like?

coalu.gif


*median used because many outliers, hence mean would not be a good measure of center.

There isn't any clear correlation (scatterplot's messy), but that's only to be expected since I cannot pinpoint the exact data point that corresponds to the RATE team's coal sample. But a point in particular to note is the Union, Kentucky point, which happens to have both the highest median and the highest pmc. Coincidence? I doubt it.

To put things into perspective, in 1g of coal, 1ppm of uranium translates into 1 microgram of uranium ... or, 2.53 x 10^15 uranium atoms. That's a lot, especially since .4pmc (say) translates into a mere 2.4 x 10^8 C-14 atoms in that same gram of carbon.

And that completely ignores the presence of uranium decay products which themselves are radioactive, too.

(If you're wondering why you've never heard that coal is radioactive, it's because you haven't listened: http://www.ornl.gov/info/ornlreview/rev26-34/text/colmain.html ,
http://greenwood.cr.usgs.gov/energy/factshts/163-97/FS-163-97.html )

Also, this: http://www.vanderbilt.edu/radsafe/9905/msg00149.html is a thread discussing (in terms of technical geochemistry - you have been warned) why uranium would tend to be associated with coal.

And by the way, here's an obvious oversimplification from the RATE report:

The uniformitarian approach for interpreting the 14C data assumes a constant 14C production rate and a constant biospheric carbon inventory extrapolated into the indefinite past. (accompanying a graph)

This is clearly wrong, it completely omits the existence of calibration methods that agree to carbon dating.
 
Upvote 0

Assyrian

Basically pulling an Obama (Thanks Calminian!)
Mar 31, 2006
14,868
991
Wales
✟27,286.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Another factor to consider is the Nitrogen content of the Coal. A quick google threw up this reference (pdf sorry :sorry: ) showing the Nitrogen content in UK coals. This varied between 0.01 and 0.22 m3 t–1
http://www.springerlink.com/content/h0754m02v1563g45/fulltext.pdf
I am only guessing that the units are cubic meters per tonne, but in a way the units are irrelevant. What is important is the the Nitrogen content of coal can vary enormously. And the Nitrogen content is just as important as the amount of Uranium in the surrounding rock. If there was only a quarter the amount of surrounding Uranium with one sample, but the coal had 20 times the Nitrogen content, then the C14 being produced would be five times higher.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

shernren

you are not reading this.
Feb 17, 2005
8,463
515
37
Shah Alam, Selangor
Visit site
✟26,381.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
In Relationship
From the USGC source earlier used, http://energy.er.usgs.gov/products/databases/CoalQual/index.htm , a quick eyeball gives roughly 0.8-1% by mass of nitrogen in coal. Let's take 1mg of coal, with .5ppm of U-238 (which is low, as shown previously), and .8% nitrogen, and a reading of .4pmc (higher than the RATE values).

.5ppm U238 = .5ng = 1.26 x 10^12 atoms
.8% N14 = 8ug = 3.44 x 10^17 atoms
.4pmc (C14) = 2.4 x 10^5 atoms

There's clearly enough U238 and N14 in there to account for the formation of .4pmc worth of C14, and remember that most of the RATE coal samples gave lower values. A small problem though, none of the elements in the uranium-thorium decay chain appear to be neutron emitters. Since there are a lot of beta-emitters, however, I think this reaction should be viable:

14N7 + e -> 14C6

but I haven't been able to confirm it yet.
 
Upvote 0

Deamiter

I just follow Christ.
Nov 10, 2003
5,226
347
Visit site
✟25,025.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
That's certainly a POSSIBLE reaction, but highly unlikely. I haven't looked it up in years, but I don't think that electron caputre is a factor in any measurable way.

Anyway, what do you mean none of the reactions are neutron emitters? More than half emit alpha particles (with two neutrons each)! The alpha particles hit nuclei and blow them to pieces which throws off lots of nice juicy neutrons.

In short, neutrons usually come from spontaneous fission or fusion (in this case of highly unstable isotopes generated by absorption of alpha and beta particles), not from this spontaneous decay that you're seeing on the charts.

No, it's not a technical explanation, but I'm not interested in pulling out my nuclear physics book at the moment.
 
Upvote 0

Deamiter

I just follow Christ.
Nov 10, 2003
5,226
347
Visit site
✟25,025.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I'm not trying to be a jerk here - but have you found examples of measured observations, or just speculation? So far, I haven't found anyone doing measurements to prove the existence of the other isotopes.
I think you're possibly looking in the wrong direction. I assume (hopefully not in error) that you understand the basics of nuclear physics, so you know that there are only a couple really significant types of decay products here (alpha and beta) and further that these never vary in composition, but only in energy.

So when scientists understand the interaction between the particles emitted by nuclear reactors and other matter (and they understand them extremely well on the scale that matters here -- subatomic particles are not at all significant) they equally understand the interaction between radiation sources like decaying uranium and matter like nitrogen (found in diamonds for example). If you're asking, "have they put uranium next to some nitrogen and measured the C14 levels?" the answer is "probably not." Then again, such an experiment would take centuries (milennia?) for results to be distinguishable from the background radiation! Of course they HAVE shown that precisely the same AMOUNT of particles emitted by uranium over many years will produce easily detectable C14.

Scientists don't need to break out radiation sensors to be able to predict if a sample is contaminated, they need only to look at the surrounding minerals to see how MUCH contamination they're likely to find.
 
Upvote 0

shernren

you are not reading this.
Feb 17, 2005
8,463
515
37
Shah Alam, Selangor
Visit site
✟26,381.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
In Relationship
That's certainly a POSSIBLE reaction, but highly unlikely. I haven't looked it up in years, but I don't think that electron caputre is a factor in any measurable way.

Anyway, what do you mean none of the reactions are neutron emitters? More than half emit alpha particles (with two neutrons each)! The alpha particles hit nuclei and blow them to pieces which throws off lots of nice juicy neutrons.

In short, neutrons usually come from spontaneous fission or fusion (in this case of highly unstable isotopes generated by absorption of alpha and beta particles), not from this spontaneous decay that you're seeing on the charts.

No, it's not a technical explanation, but I'm not interested in pulling out my nuclear physics book at the moment.
Ah! Thanks. I was scratching my head because there's no way the actual N14 -> C14 reaction should work with alpha particles instead of neutrons, and the radioisotopes in the uranium series are alpha / beta emitters. I wasn't thinking about alpha-induced fission in other atoms. Thanks! :)
 
Upvote 0

laptoppop

Servant of the living God
May 19, 2006
2,219
189
Southern California
✟23,920.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Has anyone found any authoritative explanation of the excess carbon-14 in diamonds found by the RATE team of ICR? I have not found their calculations -- I believe they may well be in the 2nd RATE report. I was going to ask for the report for my 50th birthday last Sunday, but ended up with a Canon XTi SLR instead (another hobby I love). The popular version of the RATE study, the book "Thousands, not Billions" on pages 57-58 covers three possible sources for contamination.
1) groundwater -- more applicable to the coal results than the diamonds, which is why I find myself more interested in the diamonds
2) nuclear reactions in which outside neutrons enter samples and convert either nitrogen-14 or carbon-13 to carbon-14. From the book: "Such reactions can indeed occur, however, calculations show that the resulting C-14 amounts are several thousand times less than the range actually measured"
3) heavy radioactive isotopes existing in trace amounts in some samples (radium, thorium, uranium) Again from the book: "the generation of carbon-14 by the decay of heavy nuclei results in an amount at least 100,000 times less than the actual C-14 found in samples."

The bottom line remains for now. If the diamonds are as old as they are supposed to be, they should not have the level of carbon-14 that they do. This establishes an upper bound for the age of the earth -- as the title of the book says "thousands, not billions" of years old.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

gluadys

Legend
Mar 2, 2004
12,958
682
Toronto
✟31,520.00
Faith
Protestant
Politics
CA-NDP
Has anyone found any authoritative explanation of the excess carbon-14 in diamonds found by the RATE team of ICR?

This is the first I have heard that the possible sources of contamination do not fully explain the amount of C-14 found. I think the actual math of ICR needs to be made available for review.
 
Upvote 0

shernren

you are not reading this.
Feb 17, 2005
8,463
515
37
Shah Alam, Selangor
Visit site
✟26,381.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
In Relationship
There's always the possibility of contamination. From what I remember of the C-14 results, C-14 in diamonds was found pretty much at threshold concentrations, something like 40,000 years. That's about 7 half-lives, or about 0.8% of current concentrations.

In any case, creationists aren't allowed to pick and choose. If they think that radiocarbon dates prove that diamonds are young, what does that tell us about the radiodating of other rocks?
 
Upvote 0

laptoppop

Servant of the living God
May 19, 2006
2,219
189
Southern California
✟23,920.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
There are serious issues with all of the various dating methods that need to be addressed. One resource to begin to understand some of the issues is the free copy of the 2000 book: "Radioisotopes and the Age of the Earth -- A Young-Earth Creationist Research Initiative." 2.8 MB PDF

What is demonstrated in the case of the diamonds is an upper bounds of age -- with 10,000 to 100,000 times more carbon-14 than can be explained. If they truly were as old as believed, there should be no non-contaminant c-14.

http://www.icr.org/article/2974/
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

busterdog

Senior Veteran
Jun 20, 2006
3,359
183
Visit site
✟19,429.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
There are serious issues with all of the various dating methods that need to be addressed. One resource to begin to understand some of the issues is the free copy of the 2000 book: "Radioisotopes and the Age of the Earth -- A Young-Earth Creationist Research Initiative." 2.8 MB PDF

What is demonstrated in the case of the diamonds is an upper bounds of age -- with 10,000 to 100,000 times more carbon-14 than can be explained. If they truly were as old as believed, there should be no non-contaminant c-14.

http://www.icr.org/article/2974/

Pop, don't stop.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.