Spiritual Deadness?

[cygnusx1]

Cyg, could you be more specific? Which post, or posts, is it? The link took me to the last post in the thread.

Thanks,

NBF

Post 326 NBF

Van's post said ;

Quote:
Does God then allow everyone to come to Christ without exception?

Asked and answered, behold the Shawshank defence of being obtuse.

Quote:
What does that mean Van?

It means God chooses the poor in spirit, for God is opposed to the proud, but gives grace to the humble.

Quote:
So then, God chooses those in whom He finds something good about them as you just cited, right Van?

Behold the mischaracterization - RT cannot be defended with truth, so the RT advocates post distortions as strawmen, and then knock them done. The undistorted position, which I have posted more than a dosen times, is that God reckons our faith as righteousness. Therefore before God credited it as rightousness, it was not righteous, so all this constant prattle about God seeing our faith as a work of merit while in an unregenerate state is simply defending RT with a lie.

Quote:
Actually "Faith" is not credited as Righteous at all , it is we who are credited / reckoned / imputed with Righteousness through faith , and have you thought about what it is that "faith" , the instrument of our salvation is focused upon .....

In your dreams, Romans 4:5 says "his faith was credited as righteousness". So yet another mischaracterization of scripture.

The Rightousness of Christ is said to be in our dreams NBF , van thinks faith makes us righteous not Christ!!!

 

[Van]

He specifically said that unregenerate men can will to be saved, that is, exercise their own will to choose God, the obvious implication being an autonomous choice, which precludes any prior action of God in that choice.

Twaddle. How could someone autonomously choose to trust in God if God had not revealed Himself? So of course God takes prior action, but the action is not compulsion!!

 

[Van]

I see that the team of Cyg and NBF are at it again. False assertion one, Van does not believe we are made holy and righteous by Christ. I believe we are made holy and righteous when we are spiritually placed in Christ just as scripture says.

False assertion two, Van believes we are made righteous by faith. Nope. When God credits our faith as righteousness, that does not make us righteous. We are made righteous, when God accepts our faith - credits it as righteousness, and then places us spiritually in Christ where we undergo the circumcision done without hands.

False assertion number 3, the righteousness of Christ is in our dreams, and therefore I do not believe in Christ's righteousness. What I said was Cyg's false assertion was in his dreams, not Christ's righteousness.

RT is defended by slandering opponents to divert attention away from the mistaken views of RT.

 

[cygnusx1]

I see the answer twaddle is back .............

 

[Van]

Thanks Pete, every verse you posted supports my position and if studied in context several demonstrate RT is a mistaken view of scripture.

 

[nobdysfool]

Twaddle. How could someone autonomously choose to trust in God if God had not revealed Himself? So of course God takes prior action, but the action is not compulsion!!

And Reformed Theology does not teach compulsion either, Van!

The accusation that it does is a lie from the Devil himself.

I quoted your exact words, Van. If that is not what you meant, then either you didn't word what you meant to say correctly, or you have yet again changed your position when pressed.

So which is it?

If your statement that men cannot make the choice to believe on Christ without prior action by God is what you believe, then you hold the Reformed position on that point.


Do you?

 

[nobdysfool]

I have made my point, and Van is avoiding answering post #58. Let the readers decide who has made their case, and who is dancing.

 

[Van]

Irresistible Grace equals compulsion. The assertion that is does not is absurd.


The reformed position is that a person cannot put their faith in Christ because they are dead, blind and deaf, until God supernaturally alters their core character which then compels the person to come to faith. This is a mistaken view of scripture. Matthew 13:20-21 tells of a kind of person who is unregenerate, and therefore has not been altered by the supposedly Irresistible Grace, but receives the gospel, with joy. Therefore the RT position that Irresistible Grace is necessary to a person to seek God is demonstrated false. God's revealing grace provides the informatlion upon which we choose to accept and fully trust, or reject.

 

[PETE_]

Irresistible Grace equals compulsion. The assertion that is does not is absurd.


The reformed position is that a person cannot put their faith in Christ because they are dead, blind and deaf, until God supernaturally alters their core character which then compels the person to come to faith. This is a mistaken view of scripture. Matthew 13:20-21 tells of a kind of person who is unregenerate, and therefore has not been altered by the supposedly Irresistible Grace, but receives the gospel, with joy. Therefore the RT position that Irresistible Grace is necessary to a person to seek God is demonstrated false. God's revealing grace provides the informatlion upon which we choose to accept and fully trust, or reject.

Van, do you think that when the unsaved stand before the judgement seat and acknowledge Christ as Lord they will be forced to do so? That is how I make since of it. God makes it so clear that we can truely see Him, and who would not choose Him if they saw Him so clearly?

 

[Van]

Hi Pete, I assume that you accepted my statement concerning the view that Irresistible Grace compels a person to come to faith. You seem to be asserting that if a person sees God clearly, they will always choose to put their trust in God. However, scripture says folks do not come to God because they are unwilling, because they love darkness rather than light, and because they do not want their wicked deeds to be exposed. Others like the rich young ruler fully understand that Jesus was offering salvation, but was unwilling to turn loose of his worldly treasures. This mirrors the Matthew 13:22. Read Luke 16:19-31, and note that the rich man considered himself to be a descendant of Abraham, for he said "Father Abraham." Next, and as you pointed out, he is seeing clearly now, he asks that his brothers be warned, so with his clear eyes, he does not believe in Total Spiritual Inability but believes his brothers could respond to God's revelation.
Ask yourself why Jesus taught in parables to preclude folks believing and being saved, if they had no ability to hear and believe and be accepted by God? Pete, the more you study, the more difficulties you will uncover and more you will need to ignore or rewrite or redefine to stick with your views. Keep asking questions, and prayerfully consider the answers.

 

[PETE_]

he asks that his brothers be warned, so with his clear eyes, he does not believe in Total Spiritual Inability but believes his brothers could respond to God's revelation.

But He goes on to tell him that if they did not believe the scriptures they would not even believe if someone came from the dead to tell them.

scripture says folks do not come to God because they are unwilling, because they love darkness rather than light, and because they do not want their wicked deeds to be exposed. Others like the rich young ruler fully understand that Jesus was offering salvation, but was unwilling to turn loose of his worldly treasures.

In this area I would ask if they truely believe the consequences or the benefits not matter how clearly they seem to be defined. People know that smoking will kill you, yet they continue to do so, why? They have many excuses but really they do not believe that it will kill them. But if I followed someone around with a gun telling them as soon as they lit another cigarette I would shoot them in the head, I think the success rate would be 100%. Why, because the consequences would be clearly staring them in the face. Maybe not a great example but it seems to make sense to me.

How many times have you heard people talk about conversion as a light coming on, suddenly they could see and knew it was all true. It was irresistable

 

[Van]

Irresistible Grace equals compulsion because RT asserts that anyone that is altered by irresistible grace is compelled to come to Christ.

The reformed position is that a person cannot put their faith in Christ because they are dead, blind and deaf, until God supernaturally alters their core character which then compels the person to come to faith. This is a mistaken view of scripture. Matthew 13:20-21 tells of a kind of person who is unregenerate, and therefore has not been altered by the supposedly Irresistible Grace, but receives the gospel, with joy. Therefore the RT position that Irresistible Grace is necessary to a person to seek God is demonstrated false. God's revealing grace provides the informatlion upon which we choose to accept and fully trust, or reject.

Does this quotation address Reformed Theology with specific references to scripture? If so, the post is not devoid of content.

 

[Van]

Quote:
he asks that his brothers be warned, so with his clear eyes, he does not believe in Total Spiritual Inability but believes his brothers could respond to God's revelation.

But He goes on to tell him that if they did not believe the scriptures they would not even believe if someone came from the dead to tell them.

Quote:
scripture says folks do not come to God because they are unwilling, because they love darkness rather than light, and because they do not want their wicked deeds to be exposed. Others like the rich young ruler fully understand that Jesus was offering salvation, but was unwilling to turn loose of his worldly treasures.
In this area I would ask if they truely believe the consequences or the benefits not matter how clearly they seem to be defined. People know that smoking will kill you, yet they continue to do so, why? They have many excuses but really they do not believe that it will kill them. But if I followed someone around with a gun telling them as soon as they lit another cigarette I would shoot them in the head, I think the success rate would be 100%. Why, because the consequences would be clearly staring them in the face. Maybe not a great example but it seems to make sense to me.

How many times have you heard people talk about conversion as a light coming on, suddenly they could see and knew it was all true. It was irresistable

Yes Pete, Abraham does tell the rich man in Hades that if they had not heard and learned from the Father through scripture, they would not come to the risen Christ through the gospel. So Jesus here is teaching the exact same truth His Apostle John taught in John 6:44-45. Unless the Father draws us with His lovingkindness revealed in scripture we will not come to Jesus, but if we have heard and learned from the Father, then we will come to Jesus. If we "do not listen to Moses and the Prophets", we "will not be persuaded even if" we through the gospel of Christ learn that someone rose from the dead. It all fits perfectly together Pete.

Pete, the cigarette illustration is a great illustration of your view of reality. But I smoked for 20 years and I knew that smoking cirgarettes increased the probablity of dying from cancer, lung disease, and heart disease. But because the penality did not reveal itself right away, I chose to take the risk. So it is not a lack of knowledge, but a willingness to do what is not good for us in the long run because it fulfils an immediate desire. But I stopped smoking in September 1983, 23 years ago, because an Elder at my church explained to me that smoking hindered my testamony for Christ. And so with God's help, I became a little less ensnared in the desires of the flesh and a little better disciple forsaking the world for the treasures in heaven.

Pete, the light that comes on is always the same, people become dissatisfied with their wretched lives and turn to God and His Christ for their salvation. They do this in response to God revelation, for the gospel is the power of God unto salvation. If they fully trust in Christ, God accepts their faith, for He knows their heart, and knows if their faith is full blown or "rootless, and spiritually places them in Christ and then when they arise in Christ a new creation, He indwells them so that they are in Christ and Christ is in them forever.

 

[cygnusx1]

Irresistible Grace equals compulsion because RT asserts that anyone that is altered by irresistible grace is compelled to come to Christ.

There needs to be clarity at this point , Irresistable Grace , or efficient , effective Sovereign Grace is truly a compelling force , as compelling as the wind (John 3)

Paul could not speak against the truth (2 Cor 13:8) he was compelled to preach the Gospel ( NASB: For if I preach the gospel, I have nothing to boast of, for I am under compulsion; for woe is me if I do not preach the gospel. 1 Cor 9:16) , yet the reader should not be confused into thinking "compelled" means forced against one's will , it means nothing of the kind!....

.... that is often nothing more than a false insinuation given by those who deny God's Sovereign Grace and make Grace turn on the fallen hostile nature of the sinner rather than the Loving Creator.

 

[Van]

Does compulsion mean forced against one's will? Nope says RT, so if the will is changed irresistibly, then the people are not compelled! This is simply a "moving the goal post" fallicy. People, according to RT, hate God at all times, but are compelled to come to Christ willingly, which is not compulsion. Right

 

[cygnusx1]

One continued dream and delusion
(Thomas Boston, "Human Nature in its Fourfold State")
"There is no one who understands." Romans 3:11
"They are darkened in their understanding and separated
from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in
them due to the hardening of their hearts." Ephes. 4:18
The natural man's apprehension of divine things is corrupt.
The understanding, that leading faculty, is despoiled of
its primitive glory, and covered over with confusion.

Tell them how they may advance their worldly wealth, or how
they may gratify their lusts--and they will quickly understand
these things. But it is very hard to make them know how their
souls may be saved, or how their hearts may find rest in Christ.
They are very stupid and unteachable in the matters of God.
What woeful delusions prevail over them! Do we not often see
those, who in other things are the wisest of men--yet are
notorious fools with respect to their soul's interest?

Many who are eagle-eyed in the trifles of time--yet are like
owls and bats in the light of eternal realities. Nay, truly, the
life of every natural man is butone continued dream and
delusion, out of which he never awakes, until either, by a
divine light darted from heaven into his soul, he comes to
himself--or, in hell he lifts up his eyes in torment!

Sin has closed the windows of the soul; darkness covers the
whole. The prince of darkness reigns there, and nothing but
the works of darkness are framed there. We are born spiritually
blind--and cannot be restored without a miracle of grace.

"For though your hearts were once full of darkness, now
you are full of light from the Lord!" Ephesians 5:8

 

[Van]

Does compulsion mean forced against one's will? Yes says RT, so if the will is changed irresistibly, then the people are not compelled! This is simply a "moving the goal post" fallicy. People, according to RT, hate God at all times, but are compelled to come to Christ willingly, which is not compulsion. A rose by any other name...

 

[cygnusx1]

Does compulsion mean forced against one's will? Yes says RT, so if the will is changed irresistibly, then the people are not compelled! This is simply a "moving the goal post" fallicy. People, according to RT, hate God at all times, but are compelled to come to Christ willingly, which is not compulsion. A rose by any other name...

compulsion is not "forced against one's will" as demonstrated from scripture ..... the goal posts haven't moved an atom , only those who shoot all over the place blame moving targets for their poor shots

 

[Van]

Compulsion simply means being forced to think or act in a way determined by a force. Thus, according to RT, mankind is forced to reject Christ due to Total Spiritual Inability, until altered supernaturally by Irresistible Grace, where the person is forced to accept Christ. Compulsion from beginning to end. This truth remains, even if RT offers a redefinition of compulsion, such that if our will is altered, and then we willing come to Christ, that is not a form of compulsion. A rose by any other name... A moving the goal post falacy...

 

[cygnusx1]

Compulsion simply means being forced to think or act in a way determined by a force. Thus, according to RT, mankind is forced to reject Christ due to Total Spiritual Inability, until altered supernaturally by Irresistible Grace, where the person is forced to accept Christ. Compulsion from beginning to end. This truth remains, even if RT offers a redefinition of compulsion, such that if our will is altered, and then we willing come to Christ, that is not a form of compulsion. A rose by any other name... A moving the goal post falacy...

" a poor workman always blames his tools" ....... "the goal posts moved " No they didn't !