"Water", or "tongues" --- can one be "saved", without?

[Ben johnson]

Some believe that "waterbaptism" is part of salvation; thus "dipped or condemned".

Other believe that speaking in tongues is the evidence that one HAS the Holy Spirit. So "without tongues", one does NOT have the Holy Spirit in a saving-sense.

What is your opinion? Did all those who received Jesus in Dacau or Auschwitz, but who were not "dipped", perish? Or shall we see them in Heaven?

Are all those who do not speak in tongues, but think they are saved, deceived?

Support your view with Scripture. Civility, respect, and love please. Those who do not, will receive thirty thousand lashes with a piece of wet spaghetti.

...and OLD piece of wet spaghetti...

 

[AndOne]

I'll leave the water baptism issue for someone else to address.

In regards to the baptism in the Holy Spirit issue - as evidenced by speaking in toungues - I'll take a stab at it.

My wife and I were both baptised into and were members of the Assembly of God church for many years and so I am qualified to say without a doubt that particular denomination holds within its own statement of faith that for one to be baptised in the Holy Spirit it must be evidenced by speaking in toungues. They do not believe this is necessary to be saved however - they have a seperation between salvation and the baptism of the HS.

As I grew in the faith and became more grounded in the word I could never accept this. It is contrary to I Corinthians 12:7-11 where Paul clearly states that there are many different manifestations of the Spirit - speaking in toungues only being one of many. Verses 27-31 of the same chapter also make it clear that not every believer will speak in toungues - just as not every believer will have the gift of healing, prophecy, etc.

I have never been able to quite understand why the AOG church holds to the belief that you have to speak in toungues to show you have the Baptism in the HS. I've talked to pastors and elders within the denomination and the scripture they use to support their position simply do not do so.

If this topic fires up (as I have a feeling it will) - I'll have more to say later in the thread.

For the record - I believe that the gifts did not cease at the closing of canon (which is where I differ from many of my brethren Calvinists on this issue), however I believe that for some reason (that I don't know) they are rarely exhibited - if I were to make a guess probably because they are not practiced as laid out scripturally in I Corinthians 12-14. Outside of a Soverign Grace Church I have not seen them in a Charismatic/Pentacostal church done in an orderly or proper fashion - as I Corinthians 14 clearly states they should be.

Also - I have not been blessed with the gift of toungues....

 

[nobdysfool]

I'll leave the water baptism issue for someone else to address.

In regards to the baptism in the Holy Spirit issue - as evidenced by speaking in toungues - I'll take a stab at it.

My wife and I were both baptised into and were members of the Assembly of God church for many years and so I am qualified to say without a doubt that particular denomination holds within its own statement of faith that for one to be baptised in the Holy Spirit it must be evidenced by speaking in toungues. They do not believe this is necessary to be saved however - they have a seperation between salvation and the baptism of the HS.

You are correct. They do hold to that. I personally believe that it is probably true the majority of the time, because I do see Paul's teaching showing a difference between public and private exercise of this gift. But we both know that there are many who are obviously filled with the Spirit who never spoke in tongues. Whether that was due to not knowing, or not being gifted as such, I can't say. But I do not feel the need to be dogmatic about it. It is a peripheral issue, not related to salvation.

As I grew in the faith and became more grounded in the word I could never accept this. It is contrary to I Corinthians 12:7-11 where Paul clearly states that there are many different manifestations of the Spirit - speaking in toungues only being one of many. Verses 27-31 of the same chapter also make it clear that not every believer will speak in toungues - just as not every believer will have the gift of healing, prophecy, etc.

As I said, I do see a difference between the public and private manifestations of the gifts. If Paul had known he was writing scripture, he probably would have spent more time teaching in detail. I'm sure he did in person, and it's a shame that those teachings are lost to history. However, I believe that the Holy Spirit sometime hid great Truths in plain sight, and it is only with His leading and illumination that we see them.

I have never been able to quite understand why the AOG church holds to the belief that you have to speak in toungues to show you have the Baptism in the HS. I've talked to pastors and elders within the denomination and the scripture they use to support their position simply do not do so.

Perhaps we could correspond privately about this? I'm curious as to what you were told.

If this topic fires up (as I have a feeling it will) - I'll have more to say later in the thread.

Looking forward to it.

For the record - I believe that the gifts did not cease at the closing of canon (which is where I differ from many of my brethren Calvinists on this issue), however I believe that for some reason (that I don't know) they are rarely exhibited - if I were to make a guess probably because they are not practiced as laid out scripturally in I Corinthians 12-14. Outside of a Soverign Grace Church I have not seen them in a Charismatic/Pentacostal church done in an orderly or proper fashion - as I Corinthians 14 clearly states they should be.

I too am a Calvinist who believes that the gifts weren't done away with when the Canon of scripture was completed. I have always thought that the scripture cited as "proof" was a very arbitrary and myopic reading of that verse. I agree that the Holy Spirit is not going to cause the gifts to manifest in a disorderly way, and that may be why we see so little of it nowadays.

Also - I have not been blessed with the gift of toungues....

I'm sure that the Spirit has gifted you in other ways, and has used you to accomplsh things that were a blessing. Nothing wrong with asking God about it, though. I can say that it is initially a unique experience to begin to speak and not know the words. Seeing that it can be used in prayer before God, privately, it is a great blessing, because as Paul says, we pray in the spirit when we pray that way, and the Holy Spirit supplies words we cannot find ourselves. It's hard to describe, but the edification Paul speaks of is real.

 

[AndOne]

I too am a Calvinist who believes that the gifts weren't done away with when the Canon of scripture was completed.

...and to think - I thought I was the only one - well there are couple of others that post over on the SR forum fairly regularly. This is something I never knew about you though NBF - pretty cool...

I would say I fall in line with Grudem in regards to he gifts - I always refer to mysel over on the SR forum as the "resident third-waver" when this subject comes up - as it does from time to time. Didn't think I'd ever see it addressed here - or by BJ for that matter...

 

[A Brother In Christ]

Some believe that "waterbaptism" is part of salvation; thus "dipped or condemned".

Other believe that speaking in tongues is the evidence that one HAS the Holy Spirit. So "without tongues", one does NOT have the Holy Spirit in a saving-sense.

...

baptism... eph 4:4-6 , ro 8:9, 1 cor 12:12-13

tongues was a verification gift ... 1 cor 13:8

 

[nobdysfool]

baptism... eph 4:4-6 , ro 8:9, 1 cor 12:12-13

tongues was a verification gift ... 1 cor 13:8

Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. (1Co 13:8-10) ESV

Question: Has the perfect come? Who or what is the perfect referred to here?

If it is the Canon of scripture, has knowledge been done away? Nope. Knowledge continues to grow, indicating that it is still only partial knowledge. When will knowledge be done away? When the perfect has come. Since the Canon of scripture is complete, yet we still continue to add to knowledge, the perfect cannot be the Canon of scripture. Therefore, the perfect is something else. When will knowledge be complete?

When Christ returrns.

Have prophecies been done away? Nope. There are still many yet to be fulfilled. The implication is that of completion. All prophecies have not been completed yet. When will they be?

When Christ returns.

Has tongues passed away? Nope. There is no indication that tongues have passed away. They have been rejected, but that is not the same thing. Based on the other two points, I believe that tongues will cease when Christ returns, and not before, as with the rest of the gifts of the Spirit.

The idea of tongues being a "verification gift" is a man-made doctrine.

 

[AndOne]

I Cor 13:8 - does not address the issue of tongues being a "verification gift." Please explain to me how it does:

"Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away."

 

[A Brother In Christ]

Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. (1Co 13:8-10) ESV

Question: Has the perfect come? Who or what is the perfect referred to here?

perfect=complete

in the context it goes back to prophecies

thus since all prophecy are done this means the bible is finnished no more adding to...God has given us everthing we need to know ....

greek ... perfect is come.... is a neuter thing

bible in greek is female form
Jesus in greek is male form

If it is the Canon of scripture, has knowledge been done away?

spiritual Gift of knowledge..... is done

Nope. Knowledge continues to grow, indicating that it is still only partial knowledge. When will knowledge be done away? When the perfect has come. Since the Canon of scripture is complete, yet we still continue to add to knowledge, the perfect cannot be the Canon of scripture. Therefore, the perfect is something else. When will knowledge be complete?

When Christ returrns.

Have prophecies been done away? Nope. There are still many yet to be fulfilled. The implication is that of completion. All prophecies have not been completed yet. When will they be?

When Christ returns.

Has tongues passed away? Nope. There is no indication that tongues have passed away. They have been rejected, but that is not the same thing. Based on the other two points, I believe that tongues will cease when Christ returns, and not before, as with the rest of the gifts of the Spirit.

The idea of tongues being a "verification gift" is a man-made doctrine.

2 cor 5:7 for we walk by faith not by sight

if someone is doing a sign of power ... we could see it... which is not possible.. heb 11:1

 

[Ben johnson]

As I grew in the faith and became more grounded in the word I could never accept this. It is contrary to I Corinthians 12:7-11 where Paul clearly states that there are many different manifestations of the Spirit - speaking in toungues only being one of many. Verses 27-31 of the same chapter also make it clear that not every believer will speak in toungues - just as not every believer will have the gift of healing, prophecy, etc.

This is a good answer --- and yet, those who believe "everyone tongues", view it as NBF stated:

I do see a difference between the public and private manifestations of the gifts.

"Everyone-tonguers" contend that, in 1Cor12-14, Paul was speaking of PUBLIC tongues; but "private" (they contend) is for everyone...'

My wife and I were both baptised into and were members of the Assembly of God church for many years and so I am qualified to say without a doubt that particular denomination holds within its own statement of faith that for one to be baptised in the Holy Spirit it must be evidenced by speaking in toungues. They do not believe this is necessary to be saved however - they have a seperation between salvation and the baptism of the HS.

Of the points explored in this thread, I would like one to be the concept of "saved, but not baptized in the Spirit". Is that possible?

 

[A Brother In Christ]

I Cor 13:8 - does not address the issue of tongues being a "verification gift." Please explain to me how it does:

"Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away."

all these gifts were used during the transition of law and grace... before cross... after cross

yet the bible took a few years for God to get written

till the bible was finnally given they had these gifts....

prophecy...new revelation ,
tongues.. ability to spread the gospel
knowledge ... ability to here revelation and connect with other prophecies

 

[nobdysfool]

all these gifts were used during the transition of law and grace... before cross... after cross

yet the bible took a few years for God to get written

till the bible was finnally given they had these gifts....

prophecy...new revelation ,
tongues.. ability to spread the gospel
knowledge ... ability to here revelation and connect with other prophecies

Sorry ABIC, your definitions have no proof, they are made up to tie a man-made doctrine together. I showed exactly why you're incorrect, but I can't make you see it.

We will have to agree to disagree. This isn't a salvation issue.

 

[CCWoody]

...and to think - I thought I was the only one - well there are couple of others that post over on the SR forum fairly regularly. This is something I never knew about you though NBF - pretty cool...

Ahem!

Your friendly neighborhood Charismatic/ Continuationists Calvinist
Woody.​

 

[A Brother In Christ]

Sorry ABIC, your definitions have no proof, they are made up to tie a man-made doctrine together. I showed exactly why you're incorrect, but I can't make you see it.

We will have to agree to disagree. This isn't a salvation issue.

If a believer not a salvation issue... if a religious person trying to speak in tongues to prove to men that they have the spirit... not saved



john 16:13 The Holy Spirit will not speak of Himself

John 16:14 The Holy Spirit will glorify Christ....

 

[nobdysfool]

If a believer not a salvation issue... if a religious person trying to speak in tongues to prove to men that they have the spirit... not saved

And you are qualified to judge the salvation of another.....how?

Speaking in tongues is not a salvation issue. It neither is required for one to be saved, nor does it prove that one is unsaved if they do, which is what you seem to be saying. You who claim to know whether or not the gifts have ceased, do you speak for God?

john 16:13 The Holy Spirit will not speak of Himself

John 16:14 The Holy Spirit will glorify Christ....

Which offers no proof of your position. As I said, I showed exactly why you are wrong, but I can't make you see it. We will have to agree to disagree. This issue does not define or prove salvation and is not necessary for salvation. QED.

 

[A Brother In Christ]

And you are qualified to judge the salvation of another.....how?

it a warning .... 1 cor 6:2-3

we are commanded to love one another ... john 13:34- 35, gal 6:1, acts 21:11-14

Speaking in tongues is not a salvation issue. It neither is required for one to be saved, nor does it prove that one is unsaved if they do, which is what you seem to be saying. You who claim to know whether or not the gifts have ceased, do you speak for God?

I will let the scripture do the talking not my opinion... 1 cor 13:8 do you ignore scripture

Which offers no proof of your position. As I said, I showed exactly why you are wrong, but I can't make you see it. We will have to agree to disagree. This issue does not define or prove salvation and is not necessary for salvation. QED.

depends on one heart and God know ... hebrews 1:14

 

[A Brother In Christ]

Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. (1Co 13:8-10) ESV

Question: Has the perfect come? Who or what is the perfect referred to here?

If it is the Canon of scripture, has knowledge been done away? Nope. Knowledge continues to grow, indicating that it is still only partial knowledge. When will knowledge be done away? When the perfect has come. Since the Canon of scripture is complete, yet we still continue to add to knowledge, the perfect cannot be the Canon of scripture. Therefore, the perfect is something else. When will knowledge be complete?

When Christ returrns.

Have prophecies been done away? Nope. There are still many yet to be fulfilled. The implication is that of completion. All prophecies have not been completed yet. When will they be?

When Christ returns.

Has tongues passed away? Nope. There is no indication that tongues have passed away. They have been rejected, but that is not the same thing. Based on the other two points, I believe that tongues will cease when Christ returns, and not before, as with the rest of the gifts of the Spirit.

The idea of tongues being a "verification gift" is a man-made doctrine.

yet no scripture to prove anything..... just a man's thoughts

 

[nobdysfool]

yet no scripture to prove anything..... just a man's thoughts

Perhaps you missed the scripture quoted at the beginning that I then went through line by line?

You have offered no proof that the "perfect" referred to is the Canon of scripture. You have offered no proof that knowledge has been done away. You have offered no proof that tongues have ceased. Nothing but the same man-made ideas that you now claim that I am using, and now want to criticize me for.

Where you take yours from outside the text, I am working FROM the text. What is the partial that is referred to in the scripture? Paul caps his thoughts in a very linear fashion. When the perfect comes, the partial will be caused to cease. Knowledge is still increasing. Not all prophecy has been fulfilled. I see no reason to assume that tongues have ceased. Nothing in this passage demands it. Since the other two things have not ceased, it is reasonable to believe that the third one has not, either.

For the third time, we will have to agree to disagree. This is not a salvation issue. Let's leave it there.

 

[A Brother In Christ]

all these gifts were used during the transition of law and grace... before cross... after cross

yet the bible took a few years for God to get written

till the bible was finnally given they had these gifts....

prophecy...new revelation ,
tongues.. ability to spread the gospel
knowledge ... ability to here revelation and connect with other prophecies

check out in the greek

bible... female form
Jesus Christ ... male form

prophecy... neuter thing


study it out

 

[nobdysfool]

all these gifts were used during the transition of law and grace... before cross... after cross

yet the bible took a few years for God to get written

till the bible was finnally given they had these gifts....

prophecy...new revelation ,
tongues.. ability to spread the gospel
knowledge ... ability to here revelation and connect with other prophecies

check out in the greek

bible... female form
Jesus Christ ... male form

prophecy... neuter thing


study it out

Don't need to. You've offered no proof, just your say-so, and arbitrary definitions for tongues, prophecy, and knowledge. Bible does not even appear in the passage, which is serious proof of the eisegesis you're employing. You'll have to do much, much better than that. And I don't believe you can do so.

4th request. We'll have to agree to disagree. Drop it.

 

[A Brother In Christ]

So you do not what to check it out...

find the truth 2 tim 2:15 by studying ...

disagree find

but please study it out...