Free will is sinful.

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elman

elman
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Do you have the ability to burn down your house?

Does that mean that you have to do it?

Why is it that you are able to choose not to do something that you are able to do but God is unable to choose to not force his will?

Just because you are capable of doing something does not mean that you are foced to do it.

Just because God created me with the ability to chose to be loving or unloving does not mean God is unable to force His will. It just means God has not chosen to force His will and is allowing me to act within His will if I chose to do so. He is also allowing me to act contrary to His will and I have done that and so have you. God did not force me to act contrary to His will and He did not force you to do the things you should not have done.
 
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elman

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Great theological theories; but the true test is it in scripture?

Not in your interpretation of scripture if you cannot see in the command of Jesus to love, the implication of our ability to obey or disobey. Many scripture teach we have the ability to obey or disobey. If you have a list of scriptures that teach otherwise then the problem is in your interpretation, not the scriptures.
 
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Benoni

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Not in your interpretation of scripture if you cannot see in the command of Jesus to love, the implication of our ability to obey or disobey. Many scripture teach we have the ability to obey or disobey. If you have a list of scriptures that teach otherwise then the problem is in your interpretation, not the scriptures.

First of all the word freewill is not in the Bible; that should say a lot it is a Non- Scriptural terms. Free moral agency is simply a theological expression, man-manufactured for his own convenience, and like most human inventions, and extra-biblical terminology, is not the truth at all.
Where does it say we have the ability to obey or disobey? I sure do fail in that area; that is why we need a savior. The biggest lie that ever was told in human language is that all men are born free moral agents. They are not born free. Be honest! Ask, Is that child free who is born in the slums; the child of a harlot and a whoremonger; a child without a name, who grows up with the brand of shame upon his brow from the beginning; who grows up amidst vice, and never knows virtue until it is steeped in vice? Is such a child a FREE MORAL AGENT, free to act intelligently, as he chooses, upon all moral questions? Is that child free who grows up amidst falsehood, and never knows what truth is until it is steeped in lies; that never knows what honesty is until it is steeped in crime? Is that child born free? Is that child free who is born in a communist land and in a godless home; who is told by its government and taught by its teachers that there is no God in heaven, and never knows even a verse of Scripture until it is steeped in unbelief and infidelity? Is that child born free? Is he a free moral agent? It is a sham, a delusion, and a snare to say it. It is not true. All are not born into this world as free moral agents. The truth is much stronger than that, for the fact is, that NONE are free moral agents

One is not free in the moral and spiritual realm. He may desire with all his being to rid the world of drunkenness and vice, of greed and hate and war, but who has yet accomplished that? Many are not able to free even themselves from a little weed called tobacco!

Unregenerate men cannot comprehend even that they should come to the Light. They are the unborn dead who know only darkness. They are totally depraved, wholly incapable of thinking, perceiving, or doing anything pleasing to God, until God ses fit to give them life and understanding. Faith follows the giving of Life. The giving of Life is by the will of God. Notice the order: "God, who is rich in mercy, for His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in sins, hath made us alive together with Christ (by grace are ye saved)" (Eph. 2:4-5). Man is not saved by some mythical act of his own free will. He is saved by grace, the divine enablement of God who first gives him Life and then imparts faith in his heart as a free gift. Paul continues: "For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the Gift of God. It is not of works, lest any man should boast" (Eph. 2:8-9).

.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw (Gk(drag) him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw (Gk(drag) all men unto me.

1670 helkuo (hel-koo'-o);or helko (hel'-ko); probably akin to 138; to drag (literally or figuratively):

Romans 9:15 I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy and I will have compassion (pity) on whom I will have compassion.) 16 So then [God's gift] is not a question of human will and human effort, but of God's mercy. [It depends not on one's own willingness nor on his strenuous exertion as in running a race, but on God's having mercy on him.] 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, I have raised you up for this very purpose of displaying My power in [dealing with] you, so that My name may be proclaimed the whole world over. 18 So then He has mercy on whomever He wills (chooses) and He hardens (makes stubborn and unyielding the heart of) whomever He wills.
 
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Just because God created me with the ability to chose to be loving or unloving does not mean God is unable to force His will. It just means God has not chosen to force His will and is allowing me to act within His will if I chose to do so. He is also allowing me to act contrary to His will and I have done that and so have you. God did not force me to act contrary to His will and He did not force you to do the things you should not have done.
You misunderstand. It is not my position that God is unable to force his will. It is my position that God is able to NOT force his will.

God is able to do anything - including create a creature that has free will.
 
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UVsaturated

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Do you have the ability to burn down your house?

Maybe. No one can say for certain what will or won't happen in the next moment. Someone may think they should go and do something, but it could possibly not work out the way they planned it or some circumstance may prevent it altogether. This is strong evidence that we are not in control of anything. We count it as free will when most of the time it goes according to what we want, but free-will and destiny cannot exist together. You either have one or the other.

Does that mean that you have to do it?
You may not plan to do something or make a decision not to do something and still events play out making it so that you do what you decided not to do. Ever have that happen?

Why is it that you are able to choose not to do something that you are able to do but God is unable to choose to not force his will?
What we experience is just a small portion of the reality of God. It is certainly possible for God to choose not to force his will, but since he is the author of all possible scenarios, it would still end up being his will even if he chooses to change his mind. I didn't say this would make sense to a human, but someone has to be ordinant and someone has to be subordinate.

Just because you are capable of doing something does not mean that you are foced to do it.
Whatever happens can be explained by destiny, even if the one experiencing it feels they made a free-will choice.
 
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elman

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First of all the word freewill is not in the Bible; that should say a lot it is a Non- Scriptural terms. Free moral agency is simply a theological expression, man-manufactured for his own convenience, and like most human inventions, and extra-biblical terminology, is not the truth at all.
Where does it say we have the ability to obey or disobey? I sure do fail in that area; that is why we need a savior. The biggest lie that ever was told in human language is that all men are born free moral agents. They are not born free. Be honest! Ask, Is that child free who is born in the slums; the child of a harlot and a whoremonger; a child without a name, who grows up with the brand of shame upon his brow from the beginning; who grows up amidst vice, and never knows virtue until it is steeped in vice? Is such a child a FREE MORAL AGENT, free to act intelligently, as he chooses, upon all moral questions? Is that child free who grows up amidst falsehood, and never knows what truth is until it is steeped in lies; that never knows what honesty is until it is steeped in crime? Is that child born free? Is that child free who is born in a communist land and in a godless home; who is told by its government and taught by its teachers that there is no God in heaven, and never knows even a verse of Scripture until it is steeped in unbelief and infidelity? Is that child born free? Is he a free moral agent? It is a sham, a delusion, and a snare to say it. It is not true. All are not born into this world as free moral agents. The truth is much stronger than that, for the fact is, that NONE are free moral agents

One is not free in the moral and spiritual realm. He may desire with all his being to rid the world of drunkenness and vice, of greed and hate and war, but who has yet accomplished that? Many are not able to free even themselves from a little weed called tobacco!

Unregenerate men cannot comprehend even that they should come to the Light. They are the unborn dead who know only darkness. They are totally depraved, wholly incapable of thinking, perceiving, or doing anything pleasing to God, until God ses fit to give them life and understanding. Faith follows the giving of Life. The giving of Life is by the will of God. Notice the order: "God, who is rich in mercy, for His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in sins, hath made us alive together with Christ (by grace are ye saved)" (Eph. 2:4-5). Man is not saved by some mythical act of his own free will. He is saved by grace, the divine enablement of God who first gives him Life and then imparts faith in his heart as a free gift. Paul continues: "For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the Gift of God. It is not of works, lest any man should boast" (Eph. 2:8-9).

.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw (Gk(drag) him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw (Gk(drag) all men unto me.

1670 helkuo (hel-koo'-o);or helko (hel'-ko); probably akin to 138; to drag (literally or figuratively):

Romans 9:15 I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy and I will have compassion (pity) on whom I will have compassion.) 16 So then [God's gift] is not a question of human will and human effort, but of God's mercy. [It depends not on one's own willingness nor on his strenuous exertion as in running a race, but on God's having mercy on him.] 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, I have raised you up for this very purpose of displaying My power in [dealing with] you, so that My name may be proclaimed the whole world over. 18 So then He has mercy on whomever He wills (chooses) and He hardens (makes stubborn and unyielding the heart of) whomever He wills.

When I say we are able to love or not love, I am not saying we are free from all influences, nor am I saying we are able to love perfectly or completely which is why we need the grace. To say we are unable to love each other or not love each other is anti scripture, not in line with scripture.
 
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elman

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it is not of him the willeth nor of him that runneth but of God.

Only one recieves the prize guys and he already finished the race. So it does not matter how much you will or how much you run the race is already won.

Why did Paul encourage us to stay in the race?
 
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elman

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Sure He was tempted; and was triumphant and He overcame. He did only the Father’s will in which He was preordained to do no matter what the cost. Everything that the first Adam was tempted with Jesus overcame and did what His Father ask Him to do. He was obedient to the Father unto death.

Being obediant means He chose to do the Fathers will and it means He could have been disobediant if He had chosen to do so.
 
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elman

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You misunderstand. It is not my position that God is unable to force his will. It is my position that God is able to NOT force his will.

God is able to do anything - including create a creature that has free will.

I agree and that is what He did.
 
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elman

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The house burning analogy makes think of a very good reason God would not give man freewill"


He just can't be trusted!
And God knew that but trusted him with the ability to love or not love anyway so He would have childre who could respond to His love.
 
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Pneuma3

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Why did Paul encourage us to stay in the race?

Paul would have us always abiding in Christ, because Christ had already won the race and now is at rest.

We are to rest in His victory.
We are to rest in His salvation.

If you try to run in the race outside of the will of God you are running the wrong race and try by way of the law to finnish the course.
 
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elman

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Paul would have us always abiding in Christ, because Christ had already won the race and now is at rest.

We are to rest in His victory.
We are to rest in His salvation.

If you try to run in the race outside of the will of God you are running the wrong race and try by way of the law to finnish the course.

Paul encouraged us to finish the course. This means we can chose to not finish the course.
 
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martymonster

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Being under the direction of someone does not mean you are not running the show.
NO!

The person in charge is running the show!

the ability to make choices is not freewill, which part do you not understand?

You are born the race you are, you can not change your skin colour, the status of the family your born into, or even what family you are born into!

making choice within the parameters of your existence does not equal "FREE WILL"
 
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elman

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Well I think maybe we should clearify what race/course we are speaking about before we go to far here.

What course is it you see Paul encouraging us to finish?

The one where at the end of the race a crown of life is laid up for me, and not just for me but for all those who love His appearing.
 
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elman

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NO!

The person in charge is running the show!

the ability to make choices is not freewill, which part do you not understand?

You are born the race you are, you can not change your skin colour, the status of the family your born into, or even what family you are born into!

making choice within the parameters of your existence does not equal "FREE WILL"

Yes it does. That is the defintion of free will that matters. The free will that matters in this issue and in this discussion is the ability to make a choice on being loving toward others or being unloving toward others. No one ever said we were able to be God and do anything we wanted. That is not the free will I have been arguing about.
 
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