Freewill?

[Pneuma3]

Makes a lot of sense don't it

God wants man to do good.
God give man freewill so that man can do evil if man so chooses.
God punishes man severly for using the free will in this manner.

Conclusion, God gave man freewill so that he could have a reason to punish him.

Makes me my head to brother.

 

[Evergreen48]

That is sort of circular logic don't you think?

I don't think God goes about trying to trap us in such a manner.

No, I don't think it is circular logic. And I don't believe God goes about trying to trap us either. But I do believe that He desires us to respond to Him of our own admonition, and not because we have been pre-programed to do so.

How shallow must a woman be who can be satisfied with a doll that is cold, stiff, and unyielding, and whose action's and movements must be the result of a pre-programed, wind up situation, instead of a real live baby that moves and functions on its own? Is God so shallow as this, that He would be satisfied with such robotics? I don't see God that way at all, for I percieve Him to be a God who is much deeper than that.

(I speak with the sentiments of a woman and a mother, as I believe God has the sentiments of both mother and father in that sense.)

 

[Evergreen48]

Makes a lot of sense don't it

God wants man to do good.
God give man freewill so that man can do evil if man so chooses.
God punishes man severly for using the free will in this manner.

Conclusion, God gave man freewill so that he could have a reason to punish him.

God wants man to do good.

God gave man a free will so that man can do good or evil.
God does not punish anyone for using the free will that He gave them. The punishment, if you can call it that, is for exercising the free will in wrong doing.

Big difference!

 

[hairettic]

Couldn't agree more posters 91 and 92!
I don't know about you guys, but honestly I still have a problem with believing

Man is good and wants to do good?

and I think God knows that we aren't there. When given choices, we often choose the wrong ones. We hurt others and ourselves because we seem to lack the ability to choose well all the time! (ask if I have a headache this morning) and I believe that is where his grace comes in.

Evergreen, God will be punnishing me for eternity if your standard is right. Cuz even when we think we are doing right....we still fall so short of making it. Freewill is choices...but choices effect your life here, and his grace steers us gently to a better way.

 

[gratis]

No, I don't think it is circular logic. And I don't believe God goes about trying to trap us either. But I do believe that He desires us to respond to Him of our own admonition, and not because we have been pre-programed to do so.

How shallow must a woman be who can be satisfied with a doll that is cold, stiff, and unyielding, and whose action's and movements must be the result of a pre-programed, wind up situation, instead of a real live baby that moves and functions on its own? Is God so shallow as this, that He would be satisfied with such robotics? I don't see God that way at all, for I percieve Him to be a God who is much deeper than that.

(I speak with the sentiments of a woman and a mother, as I believe God has the sentiments of both mother and father in that sense.)

Yes you make good points - I agree with them. I just don't agree on the perspective you gave here :

God does not judge mankind for using their free will. For the person is as free to do good as they are to do bad. God judges the person according to the deeds that their free will allows them to do, and not because they used the free will which He gave them.

Free will is a beautiful gift from God, however the way it is taught has quite the twist and is really coming back to a salvation game which is not the way that Jesus used or taught on salvation during his ministry here on earth.

 

[hairettic]

amen sweetie!

 

[gratis]

I'm coming to realize that if you read scriptures together, and as a whole then they almost have a different meaning than when they are taken out of context to teach one particular point. And it's when they are taken out of context that everyone gets confused because the initial meaning is lost.

 

[martymonster]

It occurred to me yesterday when I was in my car, how funny it was that christianity says that God created us with freewill so that we could choose to love God, but I think Jesus was offering some insight when He said......


Luk 7:47 This is the reason why I tell you that her sins, her many sins, are forgiven--because she has loved much; but he who is forgiven little, loves little."


Just a thought.

 

[Evergreen48]

Free will is a beautiful gift from God, however the way it is taught has quite the twist and is really coming back to a salvation game which is not the way that Jesus used or taught on salvation during his ministry here on earth.

And how have I said different to this by saying that we are not judged for using our free will, but for using it wrongly? And yes indeed, our free will is a gift from God. (all gifts from God are beautiful) Our free will is unique to only we who are the race of mankind, as we are the only form of life that He gave it to. All other life forms are pre-programed to live out their life according to a pre-set pattern which was one time established for them in their beginning. Not so with mankind.

Perhaps thoughts similar to these are what prompted the Psalmist to declare:

Psalms 8
1. O Lord, our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth! who hast set thy glory above the heavens.
2. Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou ordained strength because of thine enemies, that thou mightest still the enemy and the avenger.
3. When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained;
4. What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?
5. For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.
6. Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:
7. All sheep and oxen, yea, and the beasts of the field;
8. The fowl of the air, and the fish of the sea, and whatsoever passeth through the paths of the seas.
9. O Lord our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth!

 

[hairettic]

love that verse Marty!

 

[Harlin]

The only law that Adam and Eve could possibly hade knowledge of before they sinned, was the law of the spirit which they couldn't had yet, because Christ had not been revealed, and the letter of the law is what they did have after they took the fruit ,in that they had the knowledge of good and evil which is the letter of the law, just not in writing.

they had no law until God gave them one, which was, don't eat of that one tree, and of corse, being kids, they just had to do that one thing they weren't allowed to do!

When I say that they were kids, I mean they were in a state of innocents as children are when they are very young. kids are also very foolish and think only of their immediate needs, and if you give them a rule they want to break it as fast as they can, the bigger the consequences the more they want it!

Pro 22:15Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him.


so really it's not so difficult to see God's over all plan right there!

Make children, grow them up, this requires evil!

You can't remove foolishness from the heart of a child if there's nothing for them to be abel to do wrong and thus correct them for, can you?

Hello,

If Adam and Eve had no knowledge of the law of God until after they had sinned it could not rightfully be called sin then could it? Heres why:

"...For sin is the trangression of the law" 1 John 3:4

"...for the law is the knowledge of sin" Rom 3:20

"...He that committeth sin, is of the devil, for the devil sinneth from the beginning" 1 John 3:8

That is why children have the age of accountablity, because they are unable to comprehend the full extent of the law within their immature intellects. However, Adam and Eve weren't created children, they were made fully mature adults, able to comprehend the difference between right and wrong, they did understand God's law, as God freely walked and talked with them prior the fall, why do you think the serpent was "subtle" in his temptation?, he had to "beguile" Eve, as she did have a full understanding of God's law. She may not have grasped the full consequences of transgressing that law, but she knew it. Just think of how many commandments Eve broke when she ate that fruit.

If the devil sinned "from the beginning", and one requires a knowledge of the law to sin, then logically,there must have been a knowledge of the law from the beginning for sin to have occurred.

God bless,

Harlin

 

[Harlin]

Makes me my head to brother.

Hello,

Only those with a false understanding of the character of God would believe such.

It is not God who causes the "punishment" when someone disobeys His laws, this happens as a natural result of God having to withdraw His Spirit from a person when they choose to commit sin. God cannot stay indwelling by His Spirit when someone no longer chooses to let Him lead, hence we grieve God's Spirit. When we resist His pleadings, God being the perfect gentleman that He is, grants us our wish, and reluctantly leaves.

Satan can then however, move in and wreck havoc in that persons life ie: look at the story of Job, this makes if very clear who it is who causes the destruction in Job's life. It was God who had placed a protective hedge around Job, and yet when God removed that protection to test Job and his loyalty, Satan moved in and worked wickedly for Job's destruction.

It was God in His mercy who preserved Job's life, if He hadn't Satan would have taken that too.

God is a God of love %100 of the time, but to sin He is a consuming fire, only those who choose to cling to their sins will in the end be destroyed when God reveals Himself, sin can not exist in the presence of a Holy God.

All are free to choose whether to put their sins away or to continue in them.

God Bless,

Harlin

 

[martymonster]

Hello,

If Adam and Eve had no knowledge of the law of God until after they had sinned it could not rightfully be called sin then could it? Heres why:

"...For sin is the trangression of the law" 1 John 3:4

"...for the law is the knowledge of sin" Rom 3:20

"...He that committeth sin, is of the devil, for the devil sinneth from the beginning" 1 John 3:8

That is why children have the age of accountablity, because they are unable to comprehend the full extent of the law within their immature intellects. However, Adam and Eve weren't created children, they were made fully mature adults, able to comprehend the difference between right and wrong, they did understand God's law, as God freely walked and talked with them prior the fall, why do you think the serpent was "subtle" in his temptation?, he had to "beguile" Eve, as she did have a full understanding of God's law. She may not have grasped the full consequences of transgressing that law, but she knew it. Just think of how many commandments Eve broke when she ate that fruit.

If the devil sinned "from the beginning", and one requires a knowledge of the law to sin, then logically,there must have been a knowledge of the law from the beginning for sin to have occurred.

God bless,

Harlin

How could Adam and Eve had full knowledge of the Law?

the knowledge of the Law is what they recieved after they broke the only Law they any knowledge of,

the one command that God gave to them!


also do me a favour, show me in the bible anything about an age of accountability, that is a man made doctrine to justify God liking His sinners extra well done!

 

[Evergreen48]

also do me a favour, show me in the bible anything about an age of accountability, that is a man made doctrine to justify God liking His sinners extra well done!

Ummmm . . . . I don't know that I bellieve that there is any certain age of accountability, as it is called, for people's intellect develop in different stages of different ages. But even Jesus had to grow to a certain age before He was old enough to understand right from wrong.

 

[Evergreen48]

Evergreen, God will be punnishing me for eternity if your standard is right. Cuz even when we think we are doing right....we still fall so short of making it. Freewill is choices...but choices effect your life here, and his grace steers us gently to a better way.

hairettic sweetie, would you mind explaining how you think God would be punishing you for eternity if my standard is right?

Also, if we believe we are doing right, we are doing right. God knows when we are doing our best, and He accepts whatever we do if it is the best that we can do.

 

[martymonster]

Ummmm . . . . I don't know that I bellieve that there is any certain age of accountability, as it is called, for people's intellect develop in different stages of different ages. But even Jesus had to grow to a certain age before He was old enough to understand right from wrong.

What makes you think that Jesus had to reach a certain age before He knew right from wrong?

after all He is still God!

scriptures please?

 

[Benoni]

Ummmm . . . . I don't know that I bellieve that there is any certain age of accountability, as it is called, for people's intellect develop in different stages of different ages. But even Jesus had to grow to a certain age before He was old enough to understand right from wrong.

There are so many words in religion that are not scriptural and “age of accountability” is one of them. I guess it is a phased to protect children from the doctrine of damnation in the religious systems. Jesus was twelve maybe thirteen when He went to the temple. Twelve/thirteen is not the age of accountability if there is such a thing; it is the age of maturity This period of time in a young Jewish boys life is what we call a Bar-mitzvah. A time where a son has grown to maturity to where he listens to His Father and not so much his mother; I am sure some of our Jewish brother/sisters could add more information on this tradition.

 

[martymonster]

There are so many words in religion that are not scriptural and “age of accountability” is one of them. I guess it is a phased to protect children from the doctrine of damnation in the religious systems. Jesus was twelve maybe thirteen when He went to the temple. Twelve/thirteen is not the age of accountability if there is such a thing; it is the age of maturity This period of time in a young Jewish boys life is what we call a Bar-mitzvah. A time where a son has grown to maturity to where he listens to His Father and not so much his mother; I am sure some of our Jewish brother/sisters could add more information on this tradition.

exactly right!


When you start going down the wrong junction in the river (eternal torment doctrine) because you didn't read the map right (Bible) and you find yourself going towards a waterfall (horrific impications) you've gotta do alot of back paddling (eg. age of accountability, freewill, etc)
to try and make things right!

 

[Soul Searcher]

Yep it seems that even ET adherants can not stomach the idea of a baby or small child suffering for eternity, now if only they could learn to have that compassion for other humans it would be a big step in the right direction.

 

[martymonster]

Yep it seems that even ET adherants can not stomach the idea of a baby or small child suffering for eternity, now if only they could learn to have that compassion for other humans it would be a big step in the right direction.

I don't know?

I seem to recall a certain someone who didn't seem to think that it was that horrible!

I can't quit remember His name...........did it start with an A?

anyway their souls and not babies" I think his argument went!