Disobeying church authority

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joyfulthanks

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Do you believe there is any point at which a church authority and/or authorities can be disobeyed?

Is there ever a point at which they must be disobeyed?

In your opinion, if there is a line at which a person must choose to disobey a church authority, what is it?

Scriptural references would be appreciated.

Disclaimer: I know this is GT, and people are always looking for hidden motives when they see a post like this. There is no hidden motive, and I'm not trying to make a point. I'm not even interested in giving my own opinion about this; rather, I am trying to challenge and refine what I believe. Some recent reading has made me curious about this issue, and I simply want to toss this question out for discussion and see how others view it.

-Grace
 

Charles YTK

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The Church has no authority beyond what God has stated in his word. They are only to administer the word. If any Church teaching is contrary to Gods word it should not be followed. Paul said that the church and its leaders were ministers of the New Covenant. The New covenant is regulated by Gods Law. For it says I will write my Torah upon their hearts and every man will know me.. . And will obey my commands. Jer 31:31
 
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JimfromOhio

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It is important for us to relize that the pastor/leaders-church relationship is very sensitive and vitally important issue. The only authority any pastor or elder has is the Word of God. When you step beyond the Word of God, you’ve overstepped the bounds of your authority. God reveals Himself primarily through the pages of Scripture; that is why I believe the Bible as my absolute authority. 1 Peter 4:11 instructs me to handle biblical truth: "If anyone speaks, let him speak as the oracles of God." If the Bible is true, then it is also authoritative. As divinely revealed truth, it carries the full weight of God's own authority. A church must understand that Christ is the head of the church (Eph. 1:22; 4:15) and that He mediates His rule in the church through godly elders (1 Thess. 5:13-14; Heb. 13:7, 17).

Elders/Bishops have oversight of the church (Acts 20:28; I Pet. 5:2-3) and are thus responsible to rule the congregation (I Tim. 3:5; 5:17; I Thes. 5:12; Heb. 13:7, 17, 24). They judge among the brothers (cf. I Cor. 6:5) and, in contrast to all the members, they do the rebuking (I Tim. 5:20). Christ calls them to use the “keys of the kingdom” to bind and loose (Matt.16: 19; 18: 18; John 20: 23)—these keys being the preaching of the gospel (I John I :3), administering of the sacraments (Matt. 28:19-20; I Cor. 11: 23ff.), and the exercise of discipline (Matt. 18:17; I Cor. 5:1-5).

We do submit to the Church's authority as long as they are following according to the Word of God, Tradition and Denomination's (or local Church's) membership rules.
 
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joyfulthanks

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If you read the history of the Church, especially the heresies of Arianism valiantly fought by St. Athansius, you will find examples of when authority is challenged.

Actually, I'm reading a biography of Luther at the moment. In a way, that's what sparked the question.

-Grace
 
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Charles YTK

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Actually, I'm reading a biography of Luther at the moment. In a way, that's what sparked the question.

-Grace
Let me recommend one of Luthers own works. It tells a lot about him. "On Jews and their lies." It is available many place online.
 
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Charles YTK

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Here is a little clip from Martin Luther. There is lot more but this should give you sampling..

--------------------------------------------

What shall we Christians do with this rejected and condemned people, the Jews? Since they live among us, we dare not tolerate their conduct, now that we are aware of their lying and reviling and blaspheming. If we do, we become sharers in their lies, cursing and blasphemy. Thus we cannot extinguish the unquenchable fire of divine wrath, of which the prophets speak, nor can we convert the Jews. With prayer and the fear of God we must practice a sharp mercy to see whether we might save at least a few from the glowing flames. We dare not avenge ourselves. Vengeance a thousand times worse than we could wish them already has them by the throat. I shall give you my sincere advice:
First, to set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them. This is to be done in honor of our Lord and of Christendom, so that God might see that we are Christians, and do not condone or knowingly tolerate such public lying, cursing, and blaspheming of his Son and of his Christians. For whatever we tolerated in the past unknowingly_and I myself was unaware of it_will be pardoned by God. But if we, now that we are informed, were to protect and shield such a house for the Jews, existing right before our very nose, in which they lie about, blaspheme, curse, vilify, and defame Christ and us (as was heard above), it would be the same as if we were doing all this and even worse ourselves, as we very well know.
In Deuteronomy 13:12 Moses writes that any city that is given to idolatry shall be totally destroyed by fire, and nothing of it shall be preserved. If he were alive today, he would be the first to set fire to the synagogues and houses of the Jews. For in Deuteronomy 4:2 and 12:32 he commanded very explicitly that nothing is to be added to or subtracted from his law. And Samuel says in I Samuel 15:23 that disobedience to God is idolatry. Now the Jews' doctrine at present is nothing but the additions of the rabbis and the idolatry of disobedience, so that Moses has become entirely unknown among them (as we said before), just as the Bible became unknown under the papacy in our day. So also, for Moses' sake, their schools cannot be tolerated; they defame him just as much as they do us. It is not necessary that they have their own free churches for such idolatry.
Second, I advise that their houses also be razed and destroyed. For they pursue in them the same aims as in their synagogues. Instead they might be lodged under a roof or in a barn, like the gypsies. This will bring home to them the fact that they are not masters in our country, as they boast, but that they are living in exile and in captivity, as they incessantly wail and lament about us before God.
Third, I advise that all their prayer books and Talmudic writings, in which such idolatry, lies, cursing, and blasphemy are taught, be taken from them.
Fourth, I advise that their rabbis be forbidden to teach henceforth on pain of loss of life and limb. For they have justly forfeited the right to such an office by holding the poor Jews captive with the saying of Moses (Deuteronomy 17:10) in which he commands them to obey their teachers on penalty of death, although Moses clearly adds: "what they teach you in accord with the law of the Lord." Those villains ignore that. They wantonly employ the poor people's obedience contrary to the law of the Lord and infuse them with this poison, cursing, and blasphemy. In the same way the pope also held us captive with the declaration in Matthew 16:18, "You are Peter," etc., inducing us to believe all the lies and deceptions that issued from his devilish mind. He did not teach in accord with the word of God, and therefore he forfeited the right to teach.
Fifth, I advise that safe-conduct on the highways be abolished completely for the Jews. For they have no business in the countryside, since they are not lords, officials, tradesmen, or the like. Let them stay at home. I have heard it said that a rich Jew is now traveling across the country with twelve horses his ambition is to become a Kokhba devouring princes, lords, lands, and people with his usury, so that the great lords view it with jealous eyes. If you great lords and princes will not forbid such usurers the highway legally, some day a troop may gather against them, having learned from this booklet the true nature of the Jews and how one should deal with them and not protect their activities. For you, too, must not and cannot protect them unless you wish to become participants in an their abominations in the sight of God. Consider carefully what good could come from this, and prevent it.
Sixth, I advise that usury be prohibited to them, and that all cash and treasure of silver and gold be taken from them and put aside for safekeeping. The reason for such a measure is that, as said above, they have no other means of earning a livelihood than usury, and by it they have stolen and robbed from us an they possess. Such money should now be used in no other way than the following: Whenever a Jew is sincerely converted, he should be handed one hundred, two hundred, or three hundred florins, as personal circumstances may suggest. With this he could set himself up in some occupation for the support of his poor wife and children, and the maintenance of the old or feeble. For such evil gains are cursed if they are not put to use with God's blessing in a good and worthy cause.
But when they boast that Moses allowed or commanded them to exact usury from strangers, citing Deuteronomy 23:20 apart from this they cannot adduce as much as a letter in their support we must tell them that there are two classes of Jews or Israelites. The first comprises those whom Moses, in compliance with God's command, led from Egypt into the land of Canaan. To them he issued his law, which they were to keep in that country and not beyond it, and then only until the advent of the Messiah. The other Jews are those of the emperor and not of Moses. These date back to the time of Pilate, the procurator of the land of Judah. For when the latter asked them before the judgment seat, "Then what shall I do with Jesus who is called Christ?" they all said, "Crucify him, crucify him!" He said to them, "Shall I crucify your King?" They shouted in reply, "We have no king but Caesar!" [Matt. 27:22; John 19:15]. God had not commanded of them such submission to the emperor; they gave it voluntarily.
But when the emperor demanded the obedience due him, they resisted and rebelled against him. Now they no longer wanted to be his subjects. Then he came and visited his subjects, gathered them in Jerusalem, and then scattered them throughout his entire empire, so that they were forced to obey him. From these the present remnant of Jews descended, of whom Moses knows nothing, nor they of him; for they do not deserve a single passage or verse of Moses. If they wish to apply Moses' law again, they must first return to the land of Canaan, become Moses' Jews, and keep his laws. There they may practice usury as much as strangers will endure from them. But since they are dwelling in and disobeying Moses in foreign countries under the emperor, they are bound to keep the emperor's laws and refrain from the practice of usury until they become obedient to Moses. For Moses' law has never passed a single step beyond the land of Canaan or beyond the people of Israel. Moses was not sent to the Egyptians, the Babylonians, or any other nation with his law, but only to the people whom he led from Egypt into the land of Canaan, as he himself testifies frequently in Deuteronomy. They were expected to keep his commandments in the land which they would conquer beyond the Jordan.
Moreover, since priesthood, worship, government with which the greater part, indeed, almost all, of those laws of Moses deal have been at an end for over fourteen hundred years already, it is certain that Moses' law also came to an end and lost its authority. Therefore the imperial laws must be applied to these imperial Jews. Their wish to be Mosaic Jews must not be indulged. In fact, no Jew has been that for over fourteen hundred years.
Seventh, I recommend putting a flail, an ax, a hoe, a spade, a distaff, or a spindle into the hands of young, strong Jews and Jewesses and letting them earn their bread in the sweat of their brow, as was imposed on the children of Adam (Gen. 3 [:19]). For it is not fitting that they should let us accursed Goyim toil in the sweat of our faces while they, the holy people, idle away their time behind the stove, feasting and farting., and on top of all, boasting blasphemously of their lordship over the Christians by means of our sweat. No, one should toss out these lazy rogues by the seat of their pants.
But if we are afraid that they might harm us or our wives, children, servants, cattle, etc., if they had to serve and work for us -- for it is reasonable to assume that such noble lords of the world and venomous, bitter worms are not accustomed to working and would be very reluctant to humble themselves so deeply before the accursed Goyim -- then let us emulate the common sense of other nations such as France, Spain, Bohemia, etc., compute with them how much their usury has extorted from us, divide, divide this amicably, but then eject them forever from the country. For, as we have heard, God's anger with them is so intense that gentle mercy will only tend to make them worse and worse, while sharp mercy will reform them but little. Therefore, in any case, away with them!
 
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Assisi

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That's a really good question!

I am a Catholic and so I believe in the primacy of Peter and the authority of the pope. I'm not saying this to cause friction, or to start a debate about this. I know many of you don't agree with me. :) Stating this at the outset puts my reply in context.

So, I think that people in authority sometimes need to be rebuked. In Galatians Paul rebuked Peter at Antioch. (Now I believe that Peter held a position of higher authority in the Church and so this scripture is significant to my point). Peter behaved wrongly, and Paul rebuked him. Another time the pope was rebuked was when Catherine of Sienna rebuked Gregory XI. I think it's important. Becuase power corrupts.

I think it's important how we do it though. I would stay within my church and try to correct a fault rather than break away from it. Unity is important. I wish that Luther and the Bishops had handled the corruption of the middle ages better, then we would still have a unified church.

What would others do? If your church became corrupt, would you break away and start/join a new one? or would you stay to try to fix the problem and try to lead your leaders back to Christ?
 
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a_ntv

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Do you believe there is any point at which a church authority and/or authorities can be disobeyed?

Is there ever a point at which they must be disobeyed?

In your opinion, if there is a line at which a person must choose to disobey a church authority, what is it?

Scriptural references would be appreciated.

1Corinthians 12:12- 25 For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ.
For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body--Jews or Greeks, slaves or free--and all were made to drink of one Spirit.
For the body does not consist of one member but of many.
If the foot should say, "Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body," that would not make it any less a part of the body.
And if the ear should say, "Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body," that would not make it any less a part of the body.
If the whole body were an eye, where would be the hearing? If the whole body were an ear, where would be the sense of smell?
But as it is, God arranged the organs in the body, each one of them, as he chose.
If all were a single organ, where would the body be?
As it is, there are many parts, yet one body.
The eye cannot say to the hand, "I have no need of you," nor again the head to the feet, "I have no need of you."
On the contrary, the parts of the body which seem to be weaker are indispensable,
and those parts of the body which we think less honorable we invest with the greater honor, and our unpresentable parts are treated with greater modesty,
which our more presentable parts do not require. But God has so composed the body, giving the greater honor to the inferior part,
that there may be no discord in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another.

From above letter it is very clear that:
- we SHALL be part of the Church (Body of Christ)
- we SHALL obbey the Church, we shall NOT be like a feet that goes alone
- we are 'saved' in our being onthologically part of the Body, not because we get a one-to-one submission to the Word (that do not mean no prayer: on the contrary!!)

In other words: you can go to hell alone, but to go to heaven you need the others. That is the rule of love.

Abour Mr Luther, he was like a feet that went away alone, separated by the brothers, trying to get a 'alternative relationship' with God: he went so out that he succedeed to be excomunicated, and even when the Church invited him to return in the Body, he always refused and he did not repented
 
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joyfulthanks

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Let me recommend one of Luthers own works. It tells a lot about him. "On Jews and their lies." It is available many place online.

Hi Charles,

I am reading some of Luther's works at present. However, this thread is not about Luther, but about whether/when it is right to disobey church authority.

-Grace
 
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joyfulthanks

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In many ways, I think that Luther handled things poorly. However, the issue at stake was a rather important one. To my way of thinking, the very gospel itself was at stake because of the abuses rampant at that time when it came to the issue of indulgences.

At this point in my thinking (which is definitely still undeveloped on this issue), I have to say that the gospel would have to be the dividing line for me.

In Galatians, Paul says something to the effect of this: that if he, or even an angel from heaven came preaching another gospel, let him be anathema.

I take that to mean that if someone corrupts the gospel, they are cut off and not to be obeyed - even if it were an angel or the Apostle Paul himself who were corrupting the purity of the gospel.

As I said, my thinking is not refined on this topic, and that's why I'm looking for input from others. I appreciate everyone who has posted so far.

-Grace
 
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ROGER459

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SHOULD WE OBEY = JESUS? ? ?

That is the Only Question, being that "Church" was not Qualified!

(Luke 6:46-to-49) And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I [JESUS] say?
(Luk 6:47) Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like:
(Luk 6:48) He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.
(Luk 6:49) But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.

Thanks, Roger459

 
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joyfulthanks

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That's a really good question!

I am a Catholic and so I believe in the primacy of Peter and the authority of the pope. I'm not saying this to cause friction, or to start a debate about this. I know many of you don't agree with me. :) Stating this at the outset puts my reply in context.

So, I think that people in authority sometimes need to be rebuked. In Galatians Paul rebuked Peter at Antioch. (Now I believe that Peter held a position of higher authority in the Church and so this scripture is significant to my point). Peter behaved wrongly, and Paul rebuked him. Another time the pope was rebuked was when Catherine of Sienna rebuked Gregory XI. I think it's important. Becuase power corrupts.

I think it's important how we do it though. I would stay within my church and try to correct a fault rather than break away from it. Unity is important. I wish that Luther and the Bishops had handled the corruption of the middle ages better, then we would still have a unified church.

What would others do? If your church became corrupt, would you break away and start/join a new one? or would you stay to try to fix the problem and try to lead your leaders back to Christ?

This is a great post. I'm with you. I think unity is very, very important. One of the great faults of protestantism (as I see it) has been a quickness to walk away and start a new group instead of working through issues together.

But I do think that there are a few things that cannot be compromised. The gospel and the means of salvation would be at the top of this short list for me (see my post above).

Thanks for your thoughtful reply.

-Grace
 
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joyfulthanks

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Your question sounds like you have a catholic background. If the church is not following what the word of God teaches then yes i guess you should disobey the church. Most important always is obeying what the bible says since it is the inspired word of God.

Nope, no Catholic background here. I do, however, respect authority. I think of David, who refused to kill Saul and seize the kingdom when given the opportunity - simply because Saul, while he lived, was the Lord's anointed. This was true even though David had already been anointed king by Samuel, and the Holy Spirit had left Saul.

I think that God places more value on authority than most American protestants, in particular, are willing to admit.

-Grace
 
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