Calminian and I were having a pleasant conversation on another thread; I would like to pursue one of his posts, but doing it there would have de-railed the thread. So, with his permission, here is most of his post:
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And again you are confusing reasons with causes. A reason is not a cause. This is where everyone gets confused in my opinion. This is where Edwards and many Calvinists miss the mark (in my humble opinion). We may have a reason for sinning, but that reason is not efficacious. Thus the cause is the agent who not only determines the decision, but the reasons he will base it on. This is why the actual agent gets the blame for his decision and not the reason he chose. We may steal because of greed, but greed did not effectually cause us to steal.
Geisler wrote a book called "Chosen But Free." I highly recommend the first half of the book. He's great on this particular issue. The rest of the book was so so, IMO.
I don't find anything in scripture that says belief is a consequence (or effect) of appointment either. The reckoning of faith is an effect of God's determination. But I don't see anything in scripture that shows faith in the gospel to be caused by God. He only ordained what would follow according to His foreknowledge.
You are getting into eternal security now. I don't believe that true believers are free to leave Christ. All the apostles referred to themselves as slaves of Christ. This seems to imply we have freely entered into a freedom-restrictive relationship.
There are two kinds of faith. A productive one and a non-productive one. The latter is spoken of by James, and Jesus explained it in His sower parable (Matt 13, the 2nd and 3rd soils). But I see no evidence in scripture that a fruit bearing faith can be forfeited.
Now I can at least see why you lean toward corporate election. Yes if salvation can be lost, Acts 13:48 becomes very difficult. As does Romans 8:29-30.
One other thing that would distinguish us is that I believe God actually predestines our post salvation faith.
James 2:5 Listen, my dear brothers: Has not God chosen those who are poor in the eyes of the world to be rich in faith and to inherit the kingdom he promised those who love him?
I believe God chose to conform future believers to the image of Christ. Thus He keeps us, perfecting our faith day by day. I believe we freely enter into a relationship with Christ, but can't freely leave it.
Well I now understand your logic and can agreeably disagree with it, while still respecting it. If salvation can be lost, then you have a very strong case.
I believe all the warnings like this one by Paul are directed at those who have not entered rest as of yet—those like the 2nd and 3rd soils. The book of Hebrews has really helped me in this position. The author uses the analogy of Moses' generation who did not trust that God would deliver the Canaanites into there hands. Thus they failed to enter (Heb. 3-4). God warns us not to be like them, but rather to believe and enter the rest of Christ. They are not warnings to those already resting in Christ.
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Ben johnson said:It's a question of "cause and effect". Do we believe because God appointed us, or did God appoint us because we believed?
And again you are confusing reasons with causes. A reason is not a cause. This is where everyone gets confused in my opinion. This is where Edwards and many Calvinists miss the mark (in my humble opinion). We may have a reason for sinning, but that reason is not efficacious. Thus the cause is the agent who not only determines the decision, but the reasons he will base it on. This is why the actual agent gets the blame for his decision and not the reason he chose. We may steal because of greed, but greed did not effectually cause us to steal.
Geisler wrote a book called "Chosen But Free." I highly recommend the first half of the book. He's great on this particular issue. The rest of the book was so so, IMO.
Ben johnson said:I don't find the idea in Scripture that "God appointed anyone TO eternal life" --- making belief consequential to His appointment. Instead, Scripture seems clear that God receives the faith of those who come to Him.
I don't find anything in scripture that says belief is a consequence (or effect) of appointment either. The reckoning of faith is an effect of God's determination. But I don't see anything in scripture that shows faith in the gospel to be caused by God. He only ordained what would follow according to His foreknowledge.
Ben johnson said:In Rom8, those whom God foreknew were predestined towards Christlikeness. Who are the "foreknown"? Those who "loved God". It occurs to me that if God does any "appointing/ordaining", then there could be no "forfeiting of position".
You are getting into eternal security now. I don't believe that true believers are free to leave Christ. All the apostles referred to themselves as slaves of Christ. This seems to imply we have freely entered into a freedom-restrictive relationship.
There are two kinds of faith. A productive one and a non-productive one. The latter is spoken of by James, and Jesus explained it in His sower parable (Matt 13, the 2nd and 3rd soils). But I see no evidence in scripture that a fruit bearing faith can be forfeited.
Ben johnson said:And our place in Jesus, in salvation, is forfeitable. Hence all the warnings to "abide" and "continue" and "be steadfast" and "faithful" --- warnings using words like "be diligent TO...".
I'm seeing several possibilities:
Now I can at least see why you lean toward corporate election. Yes if salvation can be lost, Acts 13:48 becomes very difficult. As does Romans 8:29-30.
One other thing that would distinguish us is that I believe God actually predestines our post salvation faith.
James 2:5 Listen, my dear brothers: Has not God chosen those who are poor in the eyes of the world to be rich in faith and to inherit the kingdom he promised those who love him?
I believe God chose to conform future believers to the image of Christ. Thus He keeps us, perfecting our faith day by day. I believe we freely enter into a relationship with Christ, but can't freely leave it.
Ben johnson said:Hence the warning in 2Cor13:5, to "examine ourselves to see if Christ is IN us".
What if we (at some point) BELIEVE, and then (at a later point) DISbelieve? How does that reflect "ordained by God"?
If His "appointment" can be changed BY unbelief, then we are in agreement. If He sees who in the future BELIEVES, then He sees who in the future DISBELIEVES. What about one who believes, and then falls FROM belief? is he "appointed to eternal life" WHILE he believes, but then "not appointed to eternal life" when he disbelieves?
Well I now understand your logic and can agreeably disagree with it, while still respecting it. If salvation can be lost, then you have a very strong case.
I believe all the warnings like this one by Paul are directed at those who have not entered rest as of yet—those like the 2nd and 3rd soils. The book of Hebrews has really helped me in this position. The author uses the analogy of Moses' generation who did not trust that God would deliver the Canaanites into there hands. Thus they failed to enter (Heb. 3-4). God warns us not to be like them, but rather to believe and enter the rest of Christ. They are not warnings to those already resting in Christ.