Women ordained in the Baptist Church

[mont974x4]

Doesn't mean they can't.
Ringo

What we are discussing at this point is the idea of a plurality of elders and deacons. I think that is the way it was originally.The authority was shared by the men in those roles.

 

[Flynmonkie]

Questioning the Bible is a healthy thing. I don't apologize for questioning the Bible because it leads to greater faith.
Women should be ordained.
Ringo

Ringo, you have to understand, some people need a system as foundation before they grow reach the truth. However, some people seem to fall into a mandate and stay there. That is ok too, because that is obviously what they need to grow. Only God knows their heart condition and why each of us are called to the knowledge we have. I agree with you, spiritual equality and "relations" amongst Married Christians are two separate issues that are somehow intermingled here. I belong to an SBC, believe it or not, and this is how my pastor has described it to me. We, further along in understanding, have to have compassion and wisdom to support those whom are still in this stage of growth.

It is so wonderful to hit that stage of knowledge we want to share, but those whom are still babes do not understand. Very rarely you will find spiritual discernment involved in discussions such as these. For those of us that do understand, there is no discussion. Because to do so, would come across to others as arrogance, they forget all the other great things about what you stand for as a Christian brother or sister, and label you a sinner, or a lack of logic or other things.

This is the price we pay for spiritual knowledge and discernment in a world full of denominations, and schools of Theology, that are all about big business, more so than Godliness. Half the time most people don’t know why they believe what they believe and don’t ever open their bibles and study truly, the other time they are playing follow the leaders, rather than believing that God will lead their studies, trying and testing everything.

For clarification, the husband’s role as leader encompasses bringing a woman up to his level of spirituality. There is equality there. Just as Christ has brought us to Gods level (no, I do not mean we are little Gods running to and fro). Christs blood brought us justification, and sanctification. His death, [read: his love and servitude] which is what males are instructed [just as females but in a different explanation] to do in relation to their wives. This goes for other Christians too, single, young, old, widowed etc... We are supposed to grow beyond the "training wheels" here. Lifting each other up in spiritual equality.

Now, there is no sin in allowing a woman in a leadership role, if it is for the right reasons and she speaks the truth. The bible teaches us that God works in many ways, and through anyone. We can trust God because as Christians, we have that faith. The Holy Spirit does not discriminate between sexes. It works the same way for all of us. No need to question that! The good news should not turn to bad because of the sex of the one delivering it. If a church cannot handle a woman in leadership, then so be it, but if others can, there is no reason it should be considered – sinful. In fact, I view scriptures quite a bit differently there. By viewing what is good, from God, sinful, it is not only quenching the spirit, it is assuming one knows more than God does. If you plan to stay in the Baptist faith, know that this will be a huge source of contention. But I am lucky; I have a SBC pastor that believes the same way I do in this area so prayers will be answered.

 

[mont974x4]

Careful to not ignore biblical truth in the name of "tolerance" and political correctness. Sometimes we need to decide if we are going to take a liberal stand on an issue in order to not offend people or taking a hard stand on an issue in order to not offend God.

In the case of women in those authority roles there is no room for discussion. The Scripture is very clear.

Keep in mind that husband and wife are equal but the husband is held accountable as the authority figure. This is why it says sin entered through Adam altho it was Eve that was first decieved. Adam failed in his role.

The trinity consists of 3 dinstinct persons that are also one. They have diferent roles, even Jesus acknowledged this when He said only the Father would know when He would return.

Neither of these two examples point to a sub/dom relationship only that their is a God designed authority role....the husband in the home and men in the church.

 

[Ringo84]

Careful to not ignore biblical truth in the name of "tolerance" and political correctness. Sometimes we need to decide if we are going to take a liberal stand on an issue in order to not offend people or taking a hard stand on an issue in order to not offend God.

In the case of women in those authority roles there is no room for discussion. The Scripture is very clear.

Keep in mind that husband and wife are equal but the husband is held accountable as the authority figure. This is why it says sin entered through Adam altho it was Eve that was first decieved. Adam failed in his role.

The trinity consists of 3 dinstinct persons that are also one. They have diferent roles, even Jesus acknowledged this when He said only the Father would know when He would return.

Neither of these two examples point to a sub/dom relationship only that their is a God designed authority role....the husband in the home and men in the church.

Careful to not ignore biblical truth in the name of "tolerance" and political correctness.

It's not "tolerance" or "political correctness". It's the way things are.

In the case of women in those authority roles there is no room for discussion. The Scripture is very clear.

Obviously not, as we are still debating it - as are many other Christians.

This is why it says sin entered through Adam altho it was Eve that was first decieved. Adam failed in his role.

They were both responsible for what happened in the Garden. Both were deceived. It wasn't about "roles"; it was about deception.

and men in the church

You mean: "and men and women in the church".
Ringo

 

[mont974x4]

I said what I meant and I meant what I said. Women are not to have those authority roles in the home or the church.

As to tolerance and p.c. that may be the way the nation is heading and is invading our churches but it is not the way things were meant to be according to God and His Word.


On Adam and Eve...it is said she was deceived, while he is blamed as the way sin entered the world.


Yes, we are still discussing it but only because many people won't give up their own opinions and submit to that portion of Scripture and its authority.

 

[JacobHall86]

The Holy Spirit does not contradict itself. It says women are not to have authority over men. That is not some passage that is hard to comprehend or discern, it is point blank.

Women are not to hold authority, if they cant hold authority, they cant Preach. They have no business being ordained.

 

[Ringo84]

I said what I meant and I meant what I said. Women are not to have those authority roles in the home or the church.

As to tolerance and p.c. that may be the way the nation is heading and is invading our churches but it is not the way things were meant to be according to God and His Word.


On Adam and Eve...it is said she was deceived, while he is blamed as the way sin entered the world.


Yes, we are still discussing it but only because many people won't give up their own opinions and submit to that portion of Scripture and its authority.

Women are not to have those authority roles in the home or the church.

That's open to interpretation.

On Adam and Eve...it is said she was deceived, while he is blamed as the way sin entered the world.

They were both deceived. There's that cultural bias again. A person from the times during which the Bible was written would have heard the Garden of Eden story growing up. Having grown up in a male-dominant society, they would have concluded that only Eve was responsible for what happened in the Garden. It's not true.

Yes, we are still discussing it but only because many people won't give up their own opinions and submit to that portion of Scripture and its authority.

No, we're debating it because it's open to interpretation.
Ringo

 

[Ringo84]

The Holy Spirit does not contradict itself. It says women are not to have authority over men. That is not some passage that is hard to comprehend or discern, it is point blank.

Women are not to hold authority, if they cant hold authority, they cant Preach. They have no business being ordained.

It says women are not to have authority over men. That is not some passage that is hard to comprehend or discern, it is point blank.

Women are not to hold authority, if they cant hold authority, they cant Preach. They have no business being ordained.

It's open to interpretation.
Ringo

 

[JacobHall86]

It's open to interpretation.
Ringo

No its not.

But how else would you interpret that passage?

 

[Ringo84]

No its not.

But how else would you interpret that passage?

If it's not open to interpretation, what does it matter? Might as well take the verse at face value without context, right?

Seriously.
Ringo

 

[JacobHall86]

If it's not open to interpretation, what does it matter? Might as well take the verse at face value without context, right?

Seriously.
Ringo

I never said take it out of context. I just said its not open for personal interpretation.

But you disagree, so I was wondering how you would interpret it.

 

[Ringo84]

I never said take it out of context. I just said its not open for personal interpretation.

But you disagree, so I was wondering how you would interpret it.

The entire Bible's open to private interpretation.

Mine? That we should take the verse about women in context with Biblical society, with the writers' opinion (I'm talking Paul, whoever wrote Titus, etc).

I believe that women can and should be equal partners with men under God. That there is no practical reason (and barely a scriptural one either) to ban women from the ministry; most of it is a misreading of the Bible and sexism.

I appreciate your opinions, but I remain skeptical.
Ringo

 

[Ringo84]

And here are some more verses to chew on:

Acts 1:14 -
" All there with one accord devoted themselves to prayer, together with the women and Mary, the mother of Jesus, and with his brothers."

Romans 16:1-4 --
" I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a deaconess of the church at Cenchreae, that you may receive her in the Lord as befits the saints, and help her in whatever she may require from you, for she has been a helper of many and myself as well. Greet Priscilla and Aquila, my fellow workers in Christ Jesus, who risked their necks for my life, to whom not only I but also all the churches of the Gentiles give thanks."

Philippians 4:3 --
" And I ask you also, true yokefellow, help these women, for they have labored side by side with me in the gospel together with Clement and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the book of life."

Or how about this fairly forward-looking (for Bible times) verse in [FONT=&quot]I Corinthians 7:3 and 4 --

"

[/FONT]

The husband should give to his wife her conjugal rights, and likewise the wife to her husband. For the wife does not rule over her own body, but the husband does; likewise the husband does not rule over his own body, but the wife does."

So my question to all of you: if women were supposedly not ordained in the NT, how do you explain Phoebe? Or Priscilla and Aquila?
Ringo

 

[JacobHall86]

Noone said to ban women from Ministry. We are not allowing them to be Ordained or be in a leadership status.

Also, check out 2 Peter 1:20-21. It should clear up that personal interpretation thing.

 

[JacobHall86]

The word Deaconess in the passage mentioning pheobe is better translated as "Servant".

Besides, Deacons hold no power. They were originally set up to serve orphans and widows, not lead the Church as pastors. Also look at the qaulifications of a Deacon. How is a woman to be a husband to one wife?

The other verses you cited would be good If I said women shouldnt be allowed in church, but I ahvent. Only that they shouldnt be ordained.

 

[Ringo84]

The word Deaconess in the passage mentioning pheobe is better translated as "Servant".

Besides, Deacons hold no power. They were originally set up to serve orphans and widows, not lead the Church as pastors. Also look at the qaulifications of a Deacon. How is a woman to be a husband to one wife?

The other verses you cited would be good If I said women shouldnt be allowed in church, but I ahvent. Only that they shouldnt be ordained.

Nice try. But it falls short.

Besides, Deacons hold no power. They were originally set up to serve orphans and widows, not lead the Church as pastors. Also look at the qaulifications of a Deacon. How is a woman to be a husband to one wife?

They were leaders of the church, just as deacons are today. So women leading the church is Biblical.

The other verses you cited would be good If I said women shouldnt be allowed in church, but I ahvent. Only that they shouldnt be ordained.

My meaning was not to prove that women weren't allowed in church but that they were equal leaders with Paul, as the verses clearly establish.
Ringo

 

[Ringo84]

According to dictionary.com, a deacon is:

1.(in hierarchical churches) a member of the clerical order next below that of a priest.
2.(in other churches) an appointed or elected officer having variously defined duties.

Look it up yourself. www.dictionary.com.
Ringo

 

[Flynmonkie]

The Holy Spirit does not contradict itself. It says women are not to have authority over men. That is not some passage that is hard to comprehend or discern, it is point blank.

Women are not to hold authority, if they cant hold authority, they cant Preach. They have no business being ordained.

Have you ever thought of interpreting this passage to mean something very "common sense" especially for the time, Jews and Gentiles learning to be Christian... Women bossing their husbands around (Gentile) Men stoning their wives for infractions (Jews) and use this to understand that passage and others? While you are at it, read the entire passages and explain about what instructions there are for "single" women?

Are we Jews or Gentiles learning to be Christians? Or are we Christians seeking Christ in all that we do that translates to lifting one another up - no matter sex - to a spiritual equality?

Of course a woman should not "rule" over her husband, of course a husband should not "rule" over their wives. In the church, if somehow a woman is led or called to a leadership role, and it is deserving, I see no problems with this.

Beth Moore is a good example of a leader in the SBC. Men read her books also, and are beating down the doors to get in her classes. Although, she does not bear the title, due to "political correctness" of the church, very clear to me she is leading, or is that called something else. I guess I just don't get that technical about it. No one is infallible, as I have mentioned before, you hear in Baptist circles that they believe Catholics are wrong to "view" the Pope in this manner, yet are we not doing the same in our own churches and calling it something else?

FYI, I have never been politically correct in any circle. In the "secular world" I bristle others, as do I in the Christian world. Right is Right. Good is from God. There is no dispute about that.

But then again, I guess the point of contention here is "perception" of what is good for the individual, and individual church or good for the church [read: body of believers].
IMHCO

 

[JacobHall86]

Deacons are leaders that hold no power. They are servant leaders. The word Deacon means servant.

So even if a women was a deacon she still has not authority. Women leading the church is NOT BIblical.

On a Spiritual Level men adn women are equal, Church leadership they are not. Those verses do not say they were equal in leadership to Paul. Paul wasnt married so the one about marraige doesnt apply to Paul.

 

[JacobHall86]

Flyn, I dont think about how I can interpret passages, I read them and let them speak for themselves.

Beth Moore is a Womens Bible Study Leader who writes Books for Women. SHe doesnt bear the Title Pastor because of the "Political Correctness" of the Church? I will assume you meant the Political Incorrectness. Seeing as how barring women from ordination is not PC, however it is Very BIblically Correct.

You may not see a problem with Women leading the Church, However the Bible does.