Questioning miracles

[aidmh]

Let me start out by saying that I'm an agnostic, who is leaning towards the belief that there is a God out there.

Now, after a little theology research I've came upon a few tidbits that have certinatly given me something to think about. Namely - miracles.

All I've heard about is Fatima, St. Bernedette and Padre Pio. Oh, and the 5 O'Clock news about a burned pancake with Jesus' image on it. While I can find 'natural' explinations for all of these, it has raised a doubt in my mind that there might indeed be a God out there. Now, my question is that, all of these 'miracles' have been Catholic. Such as at Fatima the lady that appeared to the three children named herself as, 'The Lady of the Rosery.'

My question is - does this show that Catholicism is the 'one true' (tm) religion or am I just being myopic in my knowledge?

Please, share with me any knowledge of miracles - either for or against.

oh, and I'm sorry if this is the wrong forum, please move it if it is. Also, as I'm questioning the whole Christianity thing, I'd perfer you stay away from quoting the bible, as right now I believe it to be a biased source. I guess I'm looking for something out there that says, "No, God has shown divine influence in other religions and denominations." So, assume I believe in the Christian God.

thanks.

 

[GraftMeIn]

The Catholics believe in the same God as Christians, and they also believe in the same Jesus.

Miracles happen in the Christian churches also, but not with outward signs such as bleeding from wrists, or burned pancakes etc...

As a Christian myself, I know God works in my life, I can feel the presence of his spirit within me.

 

[LouisBooth]

"My question is - does this show that Catholicism is the 'one true' (tm) religion or am I just being myopic in my knowledge? "

I would replace the word catholicism with Christianity. The thing is that some people are at the extremes. Look, the microwave cooked my meal, its a miricle from God!!!! or at the other extreme..."Christ walked on water...no no..he must have had floaties on his feet or something." There are two extremes you must be wary of, the over and under expressionists.

If you want to look at the accounts in the bible as factual or not, we can do that....for example, no other acient historical work was written in such close proximetry to the actual events. You watch the news and believe those are the winning lottery numbers, even though the odds against them being the actual ones are astronomical. See the pt?

 

[Iffy]

Hiya,

I will answer from a Christian viewpoint and also one who lives in a country where Eastern religions abound.

First off, I see miracle as anything which the laws of nature can't explain. So it is not natural, but supernatural.

There are spirit beings around. They are spirits hence they are not confined to the physical. Satan himself is the Big Con Artist. He can counterfeit 'miracles' which one might assume came from God. The spirit realm is different from the physical realm. Evil spirits - agents of Satan - are constantly busy doing what they can to cause harm to people, God's creation made in His image.

Have you seen Lord of the Rings? That show reminded me a lot of the present and continuous battle between God and Satan. Can Sauron(bad guy in LOTR) not do supernatural things? Just as God is able, Satan too is able BUT of course God who made everything is sovereign and fully in charge.

The power of Satan is peanuts compared to the power of Almighty God. However, we physical human beings have to be careful because we are only physical.

I have experienced healing from God. I have experienced God's supernatural power, what you can call a miracle too in my relationship with parents.

However, to me the greatest 'miracle' - what God can do but man can't - is God's love and grace for mankind...even the really 'bad guys' out there.

 

Hope this was helpful!

 

 

[Iffy]

One thing...

I have seen a 'crying' statue... the Infant of Prague. It 'cried' oil
which supposedly has healing powers. I saw with my own eyes...
yet I do not believe that that was from God.

Because, imho the people sort of prayed to the Statue... and God does
not like man-made images of Him. I believe in miracles but I did
not believe that crying statue was of God.

 

[aidmh]

Well, the reason I said Catholicism is the fact that the apperation at Fatima said she was, "The lady of the Rosery," which, as far as I know, Catholics only use the Rosery.

and louisbooth, I don't understand your anaology. Let's say for a moment that the Bible was written close to certain historical events, and is true. It does not follow that since the bible is historically accurate that the chances (?) of certain things being true (such as god's existance) are. But, I think I'm missing your point, would you care to elaborate?

and Iffy, so you're saying that the miracles that the Pope affirms, could be the devil trying to influence the masses to believe the wrong thing? That the only true miracle we can see is the one that God gives to us?

I'm just trying to get a hold on this thing. I believe in miracles, and I believe that some of them are divine influence, but the sort of miracles I see are only Catholic and "big miracles" such as stigmata and spontanious healing. Perhaps the sort of miracles that are performed in the other churches (denominations) are miracles that show divine influence but can be explained with natural causes. (Such as, a man has a heart attack and falls on the brake as he is about to hit a child playing on the street. He stops inches before he hits the child - natural explination, but the odds are so great you have to wonder..)

but, perhaps I'm putting too much faith in miracles. I understand that there will never be a 'proof' for God's existance and in order for one to be a true Christian you must take a leap of faith. That leap of faith is what makes you a Christian.

Thanks for all your dicussion guys.

 

[Iffy]

hi again,

i'm not saying that really. i'm saying that you have to be careful. even if protestants ( i am one) performed miracles i feel are dodgy (they don't tally with what scripture says), i will be wary and not be quick to atrribute the miracles to God.

but if you want to discuss catholicism, i am sure there are plenty of threads on that already. i used to disagree with what i knew about catholicism but now all i am concentrating on is my own personal faith and r/ship with Jesus. if you are searching, it is good for you to know the differences between catholics and protestants. but i've found what i'm looking for and only want to look deeper into what i've found.

hmm proof of God? what sort of proof would it take for you to believe in God's existence. how about no proof that there is no God? if you studied Science, you will marvel at how exact and precise everything is. a little variation from this/that, and life would not exist. isn't that proof enough that we are not here by chance?

do you know who worships God? people everywhere. from uncivilised tribes to well-educated people. why? because God made us such that we all have an inner yearning for God. like my pastor said, God made us with a God-consciousness.

faith is important, but in the context of getting into r/ship with God, we're not talking about a LEAP of faith. it is more than that. you're not going in with your eyes closed hoping you land in the right place when you open your eyes again. you're going in with your eyes opened and your heart full of love and gratitude that there is such a being as God.....whom no man/woman will ever compare with. Besides being super-intelligent (unbeatable), God is the only one who can love EVERYONE equally and unconditionally. He loves in a sacrificial way. For all peoples.

i hope it means something to you when i say to you that you are not here by chance and that God has a purpose for your life. your life does not have to be the routine day to day and the striving for success in man's eyes...your life can have meaning, something more to it!

God bless you,
Iffy

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

Hi-

With the risk of offending the Protestants on here, I will say that yes, these miracles like Stigmata, Crying Statues, etc only occur in the Catholic Church. Take that to mean what you will.

There are two possibilities that I see:

1. The Catholic Church fakes them to get converts
2. God is sending a message through them

We can look into this further if you want, as I have obviously come to the conclusion that it is the latter.

Take care, good luck on your search.

P.S.

Just to clarify and answer you better, the Protestants don't have a "fake" religion.  Catholics have the original Deposit of Faith given by Christ, and the Protestants are usually very close to that.  They are real Christians, just like Catholics, but they are slightly removed from the "center."

 

[SimpleChristian]

aidmh....my advice, for what its worth, would be to not try and find comfort in supposed 'miracle', especially things like fatima, which is a complete falsehood.  The bible tells us that no one gets to come back from the dead.  Since that was supposed to be mary at fatima, we can be assured that it was fake.  If God said it can't happen....well, it ain't gonna happen.  What happened at Fatima was simply people being deceived....won't say deceived by what, but definately deceived.

I liked your comment of the bible as an unreliable source of information.  Let me ask you this question.  You probably learned in school of the event of Hannibal crossing the Alps, correct?  If not, it is a often to referred-to 'historical' event.  Did you know that there are only 2 extant documents of this event?  Each document was written at least 500 years AFTER the events occured and each manuscript disagrees with the other on almost every salient point of the event.  And yet we accept this event as historical, these documents as correct.

Now...there are currently in existence over 24,000 manuscripts new testament books.  It is exponentially the most documented book ever written in the history of the world.  Over 1/4 of these manuscripts are dated to within 200 years of the events they are recording.  Well over 3,000 of the extant manuscripts date within 100 years of the events, most of these dated to within 50 years of the events.  We even had extant documents that can be dated to within 10-20 years of the events.  This is literally unheard of in ancient manuscripts and exists in no other book outside of the new tesament.

If you are truly searching and would really like some answers, I am available for you to bounce questions, comments or criticisms off of at ssherfy@chartercom.com.  That is my work email and I will answer whatever you send.

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

would be to not try and find comfort in supposed 'miracle', especially things like fatima, which is a complete falsehood

Miracles can provide comfort and affirmation, but they are not meant to be a foundation of faith. The Church does not teach that they should be, quite the opposite.

As far as Fatima being a complete falsehood, I would like your reasons or references for this bold statement.

 

[D. Scarlatti]

Originally posted by SimpleChristian
Well over 3,000 of the extant [New Testament] manuscripts date within 100 years of the events, most of these dated to within 50 years of the events.

Completely false and ridiculous, much like your discussion of Supreme Court decisions you haven't read.

The earliest NT manuscript, P52, which is a tiny fragment of the Gospel of John, dates from circa 125 CE, nearly one hundred years after the "events." Most of the earliest NT manuscripts date from hundreds of years later.

Dating the Oldest New Testament Manuscripts

We even had extant documents that can be dated to within 10-20 years of the events.

Please support this assertion with evidence, otherwise you should probably retract it.

This is literally unheard of in ancient manuscripts and exists in no other book outside of the new tesament.

It's literally unheard of for the NT also.

 

[SimpleChristian]

We are told in scripture that 1) no one is allowed to come back from the dead to give 'warnings' or other such nonsense, 2) we are told in scripture that it is appointed to a man to die once and then the judgement, 3) there is no biblical precedent for people coming back from the dead to give warnings or other such to living people, 4) it is even implied in more then one place in scripture that the dead do not hear or see the living, nor give much of a care what goes on here.  If you are in the perfection of Heaven, would you really want to bother with knowing the imperfection of earth?  I would think most people would be so wrapped up in praising God and His glory....but maybe that's just me, 5) just because a man-made church says something is so, don't even come close to making is so....especially a church with such a horrific track record when it comes to 'pronouncements'.

 

[Amatire]

hmm... did I miss the point of this thread? Are you asking if miracles happen?

yes they happen, I am living proof. when I was still an unborn child, my mother's placenta stopped working, it disconnected from the womb. this happened about 3 months into the pregnancy, from that moment on I was fed by something, what if not God?

When the afterbirth came out the midwife took one look at it and said, "there is no way that baby should be alive!"

When I was 15 I started having problems with my ears, I stopped being able to hear thru them properly. I went back and foreward to the doctors but nothing worked. So I tried to fix it myself... and poked a sharp object into my ear! not very sensible! I was too scared to go back to the docs because I thought they would yell at me.

3 months later I was at a christian meeting where a man was talking about the miracles that Jesus did. about halfway thru the talk he stopped and said, "theres someone here and theyve got a recurring problem in their right ear and now they have done permenant damage and so they cant hear thru it properly" I sorta freaked because it was impossible for him to know but he had hit the nail right on the head.

He didnt pray for me. he said that Jesus could heal people using any believer so he asked a few people from the congreagation to pray for me. My ear suddenly cleared literally in a moment I was able to hear perfectly again. there was no discharge or anything that could have shown that it was just wax or something like that, and no way that my ear could just have spontaneously healed on its own. Now tell me that wasnt God!

If it wasnt God. who on earth was it?!!

 

[aidmh]

To clarify, I never said that I believed the bible to be inaccurate, I said I believed it to be a biased source. It would be like me posing the question "Does God Exist?" and quoting from "Atheist Today." Guess what kind of answer you're going to get. Plus, it presupposes that God does exist - right now I'm struggeling with that problem myself.

The reason why I talk about miracles is that they help me say to myself, "Hey, God does exist, and he does care. Look at X - he cares." Beacuse God does not, in my opinion, show himself to me. I have never seen him, nor felt his presence. While many of you can say that he manifests himself in everything I do, and everything, I don't see this.

And the reason I'm so on Catholics is that the only miracles that I have heard of being manifested are from Catholics. Such as Fatima, St. Bernadette etc. I have never heard of a Protestant (or even a Buddist, Hindu, Islamic) miracle. I have searched, but I haven't found anything - it could be that they aren't as "stuffy' as the Catholic church about keeping detailed records, but it could also mean that the only modern record of God's work is manifested in Catholocism.

and Iffy, I appreciate it, thank you for your kind words. But, with leap of faith I mean that for a person such as myself, who has been taught that something is worth believing if you can put your hands on it, it most certinatly is a leap of faith. God won't be there to say to me, "Hey, come here. I'm here, and I'm waiting." My eyes are closed, but I'm looking, but I still can't see. So yes, I think leap accuractly describes myself and my situation.

 

[LouisBooth]

"The earliest NT manuscript, P52, which is a tiny fragment of the Gospel of John, dates from circa 125 CE, nearly one hundred years after the "events." Most of the earliest NT manuscripts date from hundreds of years later.
"

*chuckles* even if that was so, that is not even close to enough time for any legends to develop. as far as the NT goes historically it blows every other acient document out of the water. Nothing even comes close in terms of shere volume of manuscripts or closeness to the actual events (ie recorind time). If you wanna beileve that ceaser existed or did anything he did, you should (if you want to be scholarly correct) believe that the miricles in the bible are true.

 

[D. Scarlatti]

The earliest NT manuscript, P52, which is a tiny fragment of the Gospel of John, dates from circa 125 CE, nearly one hundred years after the 'events.' Most of the earliest NT manuscripts date from hundreds of years later."

Originally posted by LouisBooth
*chuckles*

What's so funny?

Even if that was so

It is so. Read the linked article, or do your own research. Let me know what you come up with.

that is not even close to enough time for any legends to develop.

Who said anything about legends developing, aside from the myths developed in SimpleChristian's post. Re-read SimpleChristian's ridiculous figures and dates and compare them to the facts in the article.

as far as the NT goes historically it blows every other acient document out of the water. Nothing even comes close in terms of shere volume of manuscripts or closeness to the actual events (ie recorind time).

That's just a wee bit circular, considering the Gospels are the only source for the so-called "actual events." And three of those Gospels are in turn ultimately derived from whatever oral tradition the author of Mark relied on, since the authors of Matthew and Luke used Mark as source material.

That Mark probably originated around 70 CE at the earliest can only be inferred, since the oldest Markan manuscripts (which do not include 16:9-20, btw) date from the 4th century, that is, more than three hundred years after the "actual events."

If you wanna beileve that ceaser existed or did anything he did, you should (if you want to be scholarly correct) believe that the miricles in the bible are true.

That makes a lot of sense. If I want to believe Caesar existed (I take it any old Caesar will do), I have to by extension believe the "miracles" in the Bible are true.

Why don't I just invent some "miracles" for a Caesar to perform while I'm at it, since there is just as much evidence that a Caesar performed "miracles" as there is that Jesus did. That is, none.

 

[Iffy]

souljah - re. fatimah deception

- i think simple christians's reason was that no one comes back from the dead. did you not see that in his post?

- there are many weird spiritual things which happen in the chinese culture. such as, the marriage between spirits of lovers who died before their wedding. well, are those the spirits of the people who died...OR..
counterfeit by Satan? if you agree, that those who die do not come back from the dead in the form of spirits to haunt the living, then you have to agree that Satan the deceiver can counterfeit...

 

[Iffy]

Originally posted by aidmh
To clarify, I never said that I believed the bible to be inaccurate, I said I believed it to be a biased source. It would be like me posing the question "Does God Exist?" and quoting from "Atheist Today." 

hiya! I think you did mention that for this discussion on miracles, we should assume you are a Christian. Forgive me if I read wrongly. I don't think the Bible is biased. I think it is the most amazing book ever that I don't doubt its authenticity. I say this with all confidence, that book is THE book. It has all the answers and this CONSTANTLY amazes me. Also, that book empowers me..the Holy Spirit ministers and empowers me when I read that book. This is just a very personal answer instead of hard evidence, because I am a personal kind of person... just me.

The reason why I talk about miracles is that they help me say to myself, "Hey, God does exist, and he does care. Look at X - he cares." Beacuse God does not, in my opinion, show himself to me.

I understand. Do you know my God is also a God of signs and wonders? And these are for believers and non believers alike. So that they may know His glory and also that they may be encouraged. The Christians in Ambon, Indonesia undergo great persecution by the Muslims but many of them have experienced God's supernatural power that to them, they can follow the apostle Paul in saying 'to live is Christ, to die is gain'.

I heard the story of this person who was really SEEKING God. He said , God..if you are real wake me up at 2:15 am and I will know you are God. He did wake up at 2:15 am...exactly. He tried it the next night...again. Was it a fluke or on his own ability? Or was it God who woke him up? Now, God uses different ways to reach people. This certainly made that person aware of the reality of God. For another, God might use another way.


 I have never heard of a Protestant (or even a Buddist, Hindu, Islamic) miracle. I have searched, but I haven't found anything

Sorry I did not address this earlier. Miracles do happen among Protestants. It is only recently (4 years ago) that I heard about weeping statues and such things among Catholics. But before, I had always known about miracles. I have heard numerous accounts of God's healing and even deliverance from demonic possession. My neighbour's daughter played with Spirits and was possessed. In the name of Jesus, they cast the Spirits out of her. My own Dad had a similar experience because he was dedicated to a Chinese goddess at a young age, before he was Christian. I have gone to a healing rally and seen people get up from wheelchairs. God healed me from an incurable skin disease when I was 15, just a young girl..who panicked about how she looked when chicken pox like rashes covered her whole body and there was nothing she could do about it because the cause of the disease was unknown.

Growing up in Malaysia where lots of people pray to Hindhu gods or ancestral Chinese gods, I have heard of many supernatural things. So I need not tangible proof of my God's existence. I am aware of spirit beings. And all those times (the stories I heard), it is my God who defeated these evil spirits. In the name of Jesus, demons will flee! And in the mighty name of Jesus, nothing is impossible if it is in the will of God.


My friend, you are seeking..and you know what, I have full confidence that God will leave you enough clues so that you will find Him. Meanwhile, have this picture in your head...God is waiting with arms opened wide but yes, faith is needed. And the path of faith for you may not be same as the other person. I trust you will soon experience the joy of knowing the One whom you were made to know in a VERY special way!

In God's love,

Chris


 

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

Originally posted by D. Scarlatti

The earliest NT manuscript, P52, which is a tiny fragment of the Gospel of John, dates from circa 125 CE, nearly one hundred years after the "events." Most of the earliest NT manuscripts date from hundreds of years later.

Dating the Oldest New Testament Manuscripts 

You neglected to mention that context of that date:

"his manuscript (P52) has generally been dated to ca. A.D. 125. This fact alone proved that the original Gospel of John was written earlier, viz. in the first century A.D., as had always been upheld by conservative scholars."

You should either provide evidence, or retract that statement, or something like that, right?

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

We are told in scripture that 1) no one is allowed to come back from the dead to give 'warnings' or other such nonsense,

Please give me the scripture that you are refering to, for context.

3) there is no biblical precedent for people coming back from the dead to give warnings or other such to living people

Um....Jesus came back from the dead to "other such" to living people...isn't that in the Bible?