I've heard it said it is good for a Christian to be politically involved and follow what is going on to keep up with the different views.
I was lead to wonder if the different views were the views of man or views of those of the Kingdom. Whose eyes are they being seen through? Is it like a local or even a foreigner viewing the politics of their own or another? Or would it be of a world viewing another world in comparison as would be the case of those of the Kingdom. Hence the purpose of this thread.
You see, a good many Christians have no concept of what Jesus taught regarding the Kingdom or the world of man. Matthew 24: 14 And this GOSPEL OF THE KINGDOM shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
That the two are polar opposites and that we are to follow one or the other but not both, simply because it would be impossible if both worlds were to stick to their original beliefs. We can't have it both ways. Man tries. God doesn't. Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
Now some might say then why does it seem we see church and state working together all the time? Well that goes back to a time when mainly Roman Gentiles (a Gentile considered by the Jews to be anyone not Jewish including their brother tribes of Israel) decided to make a fledgling Christianity over in their own image, creating hierarchy and modelling their new 'religion' on the same old institutions man has always built empires upon. Almost immediately we had a split between those of the Way and the Gentile bastardization.
Jesus' early followers understood the Gospel of the Kingdom and that God's ways and man's ways were opposite. The Kingdom was upside down in it's ways, so to speak, compared to the world man had built. Jesus' two commandments replicated the platform of the Kingdom. Matthew 22: 37-39
God's will came first before man's and that will was to love neighbour as self.
Man's will since the Garden had been our will before God's. There is no gain at the expense of others in loving neighbour as self. Self serving ways and self justification of deeds by constantly redefining what was good and evil has been pretty well the default setting of man since the Garden. It is the cause of all strife, division and woes in earth. No wonder God decided to quarantine us here to reap what we sow against each other, good begating good, but most often evil begating evil in retaliation.
The inmates running the asylum with no way out. No way out, that is until Jesus came along to teach His Gospel of the Kingdom and bring the Good News to fruition. Then those who regained their sanity had hope of a life free of the traditional self serving ways of man.
So there you have it. Two opposing systems (with only one warring against the other as warring had always served them best). The governance of man demanding loyalty to it's system of every man for themselves. God's governance without demands, but giving choice. His system of loving neighbour as self, a system frowned upon to this day by the institutions of man. No material gain there. Did you know that the early followers of Jesus were labelled Haters of Man? (Tacitus) This because they had no use for the default characteristics of man which they had repented of.
So what was the early result?
Remember, satan manipulates everything good to eventually serve self. That is what being Adversary to the will of God is all about. Nothing is safe, especially a new religion originally based upon a Kingdom where the Adversary has no place or power. A natural target.
The early non-Roman churches went about their business minding their own, rendering unto Caesar what was Caesar's but without rebellion to the world of man. An alternate system. No rebellious sword wielding Jews seeking their own extinction. Other than being scapegoats for when the gentile gods let down the Gentiles (It's those Jesus guys fault for not playing the game that the crops went bad and I didn't win the lottery) how could a people who went about doing good to those in need be a threat otherwise? They were the Red Cross or Salvation Army types of the day. Not a religion but a way of life as Jesus intended
That all changed when the Gentiles (mainly Roman) got involved and created a 'religion' modelled on the previous power structure institutions of man. Building a better mousetrap to suit their purpose. (even the Chinese today only reverse engineer) No new system any more, just the same ol' same ol' how can we personally benefit from this type of thingy. For 300 years changes, manipulations, infighting, book burning, persecutions and forced assimilation (where did the original HS powered church of Jewish followers of Jesus disappear to) and the like carried on, until one day it all came together thanks to Constantine. After 300 years of struggle and infighting, the Gentile winners got to make Christianity in it's own image.
Here was an emperor emulated by politicians today (as the new church emulated Constantine), who saw the advantage of having Christians on his team. It came especially handy in a battle where he had Christians in his army identify themselves as such in the hopes Christians in the opposing armies would refuse to fight against their brethren. It worked. Christianity had been militarized for the good, not of God, but of man. Typical human move.
The next step was to totally broadside Jesus and His Gospel of the Kingdom and align what was originally meant to be an alternate system, with the system of man. Gentile Church and State became one. Gentile Christianity whored itself to Babylon (that's what Peter called Rome) and a faux Christianity was created where each side could use each other for their own purposes, yet both were modelled on the human tradition of power, gain and authority. Every offshoot to this day came from that Constantinian church.
Before you say... "How would God allow this? Hey, the Christians are the good guys". Consider that God knew the hearts of the Gentiles, and what they would do (build their own kingdom rather than follow the kingdom of God). Matthew 20: 25 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them. 26 But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister; 27 And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:
But how otherwise than using this faux religion, would the scriptures get carried forward for the discerning to find the Kingdom for themselves. Hidden in plain sight in a church housing both those of the will of man and those of the will of God. Couldn't leave it up to the Jewish Christians. Jerusalem would be destroy and the Jewish Christians forced into the Gentile church.
With the amalgamation the systems were no longer opposite in nature. Guess which one had to change it's theology to suit the other (even creating a new neutral gospel so as not to oppose the institutions of man). Do you think adversaries of God are going to convict their own?
Which finally brings me to the point about politics and religion.
We saw how Constantine used religion as do politicians today (see religious right, jihadists, and others like them) We have churches defending the ways of man, politically motivated to create division between mankind instead of between the world of mankind and the Kingdom. We have few teaching the Gospel of the Kingdom because that would expose them for the hypocrites that they are.
So my question and this topic's is... how can a true follower of Jesus immerse themselves in the political world of man taking sides within, when the real division was between the world of man and the Kingdom. Which side are you on?
Should we get involved in the will of man if we represent the opposing system? Is that not letting the world corrupt the seed as the parable said? How can we align and still be true to the Kingdom? We can't. We were always meant to work as an alternative because the will of man corrupts what it touches. It's not long before anything good in the world ends up being used for gain.
Can we follow politics to discern/contrast the difference between the way that God wills things and that man wills things? Yes.
Can we participate? Yes, but only as a minority. Those who seek good for all will be shunned by those who seek gain. ( There was a good example in Canada of a church minster who lead a political party, which although never becoming a main power, was able to as a third option, get bills passed to benefit the people by simply telling a minority government our way or no help.. take note US, the two party monopoly cannot serve the people. God set the example with a third option to the division of man.)
This is not a condemnation of Christianity as a whole. God knew what He was doing when He created the Gentile Church. There are both good and bad within, but we know from observation of the outside world, which side dominates. The trick is to be discerning. The Adversary has access to all worldly institutions including religion. Do you seek the Kingdom or support the institutions of man? Do you act accordingly?
Are we to bow before the governance of man or the governance of God as true Christians?
© ...timothyu
I was lead to wonder if the different views were the views of man or views of those of the Kingdom. Whose eyes are they being seen through? Is it like a local or even a foreigner viewing the politics of their own or another? Or would it be of a world viewing another world in comparison as would be the case of those of the Kingdom. Hence the purpose of this thread.
You see, a good many Christians have no concept of what Jesus taught regarding the Kingdom or the world of man. Matthew 24: 14 And this GOSPEL OF THE KINGDOM shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
That the two are polar opposites and that we are to follow one or the other but not both, simply because it would be impossible if both worlds were to stick to their original beliefs. We can't have it both ways. Man tries. God doesn't. Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
Now some might say then why does it seem we see church and state working together all the time? Well that goes back to a time when mainly Roman Gentiles (a Gentile considered by the Jews to be anyone not Jewish including their brother tribes of Israel) decided to make a fledgling Christianity over in their own image, creating hierarchy and modelling their new 'religion' on the same old institutions man has always built empires upon. Almost immediately we had a split between those of the Way and the Gentile bastardization.
Jesus' early followers understood the Gospel of the Kingdom and that God's ways and man's ways were opposite. The Kingdom was upside down in it's ways, so to speak, compared to the world man had built. Jesus' two commandments replicated the platform of the Kingdom. Matthew 22: 37-39
God's will came first before man's and that will was to love neighbour as self.
Man's will since the Garden had been our will before God's. There is no gain at the expense of others in loving neighbour as self. Self serving ways and self justification of deeds by constantly redefining what was good and evil has been pretty well the default setting of man since the Garden. It is the cause of all strife, division and woes in earth. No wonder God decided to quarantine us here to reap what we sow against each other, good begating good, but most often evil begating evil in retaliation.
The inmates running the asylum with no way out. No way out, that is until Jesus came along to teach His Gospel of the Kingdom and bring the Good News to fruition. Then those who regained their sanity had hope of a life free of the traditional self serving ways of man.
So there you have it. Two opposing systems (with only one warring against the other as warring had always served them best). The governance of man demanding loyalty to it's system of every man for themselves. God's governance without demands, but giving choice. His system of loving neighbour as self, a system frowned upon to this day by the institutions of man. No material gain there. Did you know that the early followers of Jesus were labelled Haters of Man? (Tacitus) This because they had no use for the default characteristics of man which they had repented of.
So what was the early result?
Remember, satan manipulates everything good to eventually serve self. That is what being Adversary to the will of God is all about. Nothing is safe, especially a new religion originally based upon a Kingdom where the Adversary has no place or power. A natural target.
The early non-Roman churches went about their business minding their own, rendering unto Caesar what was Caesar's but without rebellion to the world of man. An alternate system. No rebellious sword wielding Jews seeking their own extinction. Other than being scapegoats for when the gentile gods let down the Gentiles (It's those Jesus guys fault for not playing the game that the crops went bad and I didn't win the lottery) how could a people who went about doing good to those in need be a threat otherwise? They were the Red Cross or Salvation Army types of the day. Not a religion but a way of life as Jesus intended
That all changed when the Gentiles (mainly Roman) got involved and created a 'religion' modelled on the previous power structure institutions of man. Building a better mousetrap to suit their purpose. (even the Chinese today only reverse engineer) No new system any more, just the same ol' same ol' how can we personally benefit from this type of thingy. For 300 years changes, manipulations, infighting, book burning, persecutions and forced assimilation (where did the original HS powered church of Jewish followers of Jesus disappear to) and the like carried on, until one day it all came together thanks to Constantine. After 300 years of struggle and infighting, the Gentile winners got to make Christianity in it's own image.
Here was an emperor emulated by politicians today (as the new church emulated Constantine), who saw the advantage of having Christians on his team. It came especially handy in a battle where he had Christians in his army identify themselves as such in the hopes Christians in the opposing armies would refuse to fight against their brethren. It worked. Christianity had been militarized for the good, not of God, but of man. Typical human move.
The next step was to totally broadside Jesus and His Gospel of the Kingdom and align what was originally meant to be an alternate system, with the system of man. Gentile Church and State became one. Gentile Christianity whored itself to Babylon (that's what Peter called Rome) and a faux Christianity was created where each side could use each other for their own purposes, yet both were modelled on the human tradition of power, gain and authority. Every offshoot to this day came from that Constantinian church.
Before you say... "How would God allow this? Hey, the Christians are the good guys". Consider that God knew the hearts of the Gentiles, and what they would do (build their own kingdom rather than follow the kingdom of God). Matthew 20: 25 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them. 26 But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister; 27 And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:
But how otherwise than using this faux religion, would the scriptures get carried forward for the discerning to find the Kingdom for themselves. Hidden in plain sight in a church housing both those of the will of man and those of the will of God. Couldn't leave it up to the Jewish Christians. Jerusalem would be destroy and the Jewish Christians forced into the Gentile church.
With the amalgamation the systems were no longer opposite in nature. Guess which one had to change it's theology to suit the other (even creating a new neutral gospel so as not to oppose the institutions of man). Do you think adversaries of God are going to convict their own?
Which finally brings me to the point about politics and religion.
We saw how Constantine used religion as do politicians today (see religious right, jihadists, and others like them) We have churches defending the ways of man, politically motivated to create division between mankind instead of between the world of mankind and the Kingdom. We have few teaching the Gospel of the Kingdom because that would expose them for the hypocrites that they are.
So my question and this topic's is... how can a true follower of Jesus immerse themselves in the political world of man taking sides within, when the real division was between the world of man and the Kingdom. Which side are you on?
Should we get involved in the will of man if we represent the opposing system? Is that not letting the world corrupt the seed as the parable said? How can we align and still be true to the Kingdom? We can't. We were always meant to work as an alternative because the will of man corrupts what it touches. It's not long before anything good in the world ends up being used for gain.
Can we follow politics to discern/contrast the difference between the way that God wills things and that man wills things? Yes.
Can we participate? Yes, but only as a minority. Those who seek good for all will be shunned by those who seek gain. ( There was a good example in Canada of a church minster who lead a political party, which although never becoming a main power, was able to as a third option, get bills passed to benefit the people by simply telling a minority government our way or no help.. take note US, the two party monopoly cannot serve the people. God set the example with a third option to the division of man.)
This is not a condemnation of Christianity as a whole. God knew what He was doing when He created the Gentile Church. There are both good and bad within, but we know from observation of the outside world, which side dominates. The trick is to be discerning. The Adversary has access to all worldly institutions including religion. Do you seek the Kingdom or support the institutions of man? Do you act accordingly?
Are we to bow before the governance of man or the governance of God as true Christians?
© ...timothyu