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Most Confessional Christians would agree with you. I'm a fan of Luther, WELS and LCMS.
jm
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Zwingli and luther stated the reformation
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Most Confessional Christians would agree with you. I'm a fan of Luther, WELS and LCMS.
jm
Well sharing the same beliefs as Luther.
Double predestination just makes God the bad guy and the devil the victim since he would have had no choice but to be the tyrant God willed him to be.
Luthers stance was clear about this.
God is for knowing and his permissible will is is over what has been because he sees all are choices that we clearly have.
That Adam and Eve had.
Other wise like luther has been quoted saying "jesus dying on the cross and all the scriptures would be in vain."
Paul speaks On this clearly as well in roman 10:13-15
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
Jesus speaks on this saying ALL men will be drawn. The dogma is the theology not the word.
But in all fareness im studying Calvin's writtings and me still learning
Amen
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You are welcome to the Ask a Calvinist forum if you have questions or contact me directly if you like. I would be willing to address the passage you cited above or any others.
Yours in the Lord,
j
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Daniel Stinson
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Zwingli's viewpoint doesn't support Luther's at all, that I'm aware of.
Lutherans believe in eternal election, only because our names can't be struck from the "Scroll of Life", and Christ's death on the cross is a predestined event.
Calvin's "limited atonement" weakens the power of the Cross from the Lutheran viewpoint. Luther's viewpoint was both, "vicarious atonement" and "universal atonement". Predestination, in Lutheranism means that it's intended for all to receive, imputed through baptism alone, and our fall from grace should it occur is linked to free-will. So, our free-will is the fall from the predestination that was made available to us.
For Calvin the election and predestination are one in the same. For Lutherans, predestination is an available path through baptism, however, any fall from grace is linked to free-will and not predestination as Calvin believed.
The Evangelical Churches and Reformed Churches were typically theologically split between Luther and Melanchthon (Evangelism); and Calvin and Zwingli (Reformed). Just as Evangelist had their "Three Sola" and Reformationist had their "Five Solae".
Calvinism and Roman-Catholicism over explain election and predestination; while Lutheranism theologically leaves it a mystery beyond having confidence in our baptisms.
In Lutheranism imputed grace is a pollar opposite to "free-will of the flesh" and our fallen nature exists by default. Legitimate free-will is being a perfect slave to the will of God, bound in our baptisms.
Lutherans believe in eternal election, only because our names can't be struck from the "Scroll of Life", and Christ's death on the cross is a predestined event.
Calvin's "limited atonement" weakens the power of the Cross from the Lutheran viewpoint. Luther's viewpoint was both, "vicarious atonement" and "universal atonement". Predestination, in Lutheranism means that it's intended for all to receive, imputed through baptism alone, and our fall from grace should it occur is linked to free-will. So, our free-will is the fall from the predestination that was made available to us.
For Calvin the election and predestination are one in the same. For Lutherans, predestination is an available path through baptism, however, any fall from grace is linked to free-will and not predestination as Calvin believed.
The Evangelical Churches and Reformed Churches were typically theologically split between Luther and Melanchthon (Evangelism); and Calvin and Zwingli (Reformed). Just as Evangelist had their "Three Sola" and Reformationist had their "Five Solae".
Calvinism and Roman-Catholicism over explain election and predestination; while Lutheranism theologically leaves it a mystery beyond having confidence in our baptisms.
In Lutheranism imputed grace is a pollar opposite to "free-will of the flesh" and our fallen nature exists by default. Legitimate free-will is being a perfect slave to the will of God, bound in our baptisms.
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From Creeds of Christendom:
Zwingli teaches the doctrine of unconditional election or predestination to salvation (constitutio de beandis, as he defines it), and finds in it the ultimate ground of our justification and salvation; faith being only the organ of appropriation. God is the infinite being of beings, in whom and through whom all other beings exist; the supreme cause, including as dependent organs the finite or middle causes; the infinite and only good (Luke xviii.18), and every thing else is good (Gen. i.31) only through and in him. It is a fundamental canon that God by his providence, or perpetual and unchangeable rule and administration, [728] controls and disposes all events, the will and the action; otherwise he would not be omnipotent and omnipresent. There can be no accident. The fall, with its consequences, likewise comes under his foreknowledge and fore-ordination, which can be as little separated as intellect and will. But God's agency in respect to sin is free from sin, since he is not bound by law, and has no bad motive or affection; so the magistrate may take a man's life without committing murder. [729] But only those who hear the Gospel and reject it in unbelief are foreordained to eternal punishment. Of those without the reach of Christian doctrine we can not judge, as we know not their relation to election. There may be and are elect persons among the heathen; and the fate of Socrates and Seneca is no doubt better than that of many popes.
Zwingli, however, dwells mainly on the positive aspect of God's providence -- the election to salvation. Election is free and independent. It embraces also infants before they have any faith. It does not follow faith, but precedes it. Faith is itself the work of free grace and the sign and fruit of election (Rom. viii.29, 30; Acts xiii.48). We are elected in order that we may believe in Christ and bring forth the fruits of holiness. Faith is trust and confidence in Christ, the union of the soul with him, and full of good works. Hence it is preposterous to charge this doctrine with dangerous tendency to carnal security and immorality. [730]
This is substantially Zwingli's doctrine, as he preached it during the Conference in Marburg (1529), and taught it in his book on Providence [731] It was afterwards more fully and clearly developed by the powerful intellect of Calvin, [732] who made it the prominent pillar of his theology and impressed it upon the majority of the Reformed Confessions, although several of them simply teach a free election to salvation, without saying a word of the decree of reprobation.
On this subject, however, as previously stated, there was no controversy among the early Reformers. They were all Augustinians. Luther heard Zwingli's sermon on Providence in Marburg, and made no objection to it, except that he quoted Greek and Hebrew in the pulpit. He had expressed himself much more strongly on the subject in his famous book against Erasmus (1525). There was, however, this difference, that Luther, like Augustine, from his denial of the freedom of the human will, was driven to the doctrine of absolute predestination, as a logical consequence; while Zwingli, and still more Calvin, started from the absolute sovereignty of God, and inferred from it the dependence of the human will; yet all of them were controlled by their strong sense of sin and free grace much more than by speculative principles. The Lutheran Church afterwards dropped the theological inference in part -- namely, the decree of reprobation -- and taught instead the universality of the offer of saving grace; but she retained the anthropological premise of total depravity and inability, and also the doctrine of a free election of the saints, or predestination to salvation; and this after all is the chief point in the Calvinistic system, and the only one which is made the subject of popular instruction. In the Lutheran Church, morever, the election theory is moderated by the sacramental principle of baptismal regeneration (as was the case with Augustine), while in the Reformed Church the doctrine of election controls and modifies the sacramental principle, so that the efficacy of baptism is made to depend upon the preceding election.
Zwingli teaches the doctrine of unconditional election or predestination to salvation (constitutio de beandis, as he defines it), and finds in it the ultimate ground of our justification and salvation; faith being only the organ of appropriation. God is the infinite being of beings, in whom and through whom all other beings exist; the supreme cause, including as dependent organs the finite or middle causes; the infinite and only good (Luke xviii.18), and every thing else is good (Gen. i.31) only through and in him. It is a fundamental canon that God by his providence, or perpetual and unchangeable rule and administration, [728] controls and disposes all events, the will and the action; otherwise he would not be omnipotent and omnipresent. There can be no accident. The fall, with its consequences, likewise comes under his foreknowledge and fore-ordination, which can be as little separated as intellect and will. But God's agency in respect to sin is free from sin, since he is not bound by law, and has no bad motive or affection; so the magistrate may take a man's life without committing murder. [729] But only those who hear the Gospel and reject it in unbelief are foreordained to eternal punishment. Of those without the reach of Christian doctrine we can not judge, as we know not their relation to election. There may be and are elect persons among the heathen; and the fate of Socrates and Seneca is no doubt better than that of many popes.
Zwingli, however, dwells mainly on the positive aspect of God's providence -- the election to salvation. Election is free and independent. It embraces also infants before they have any faith. It does not follow faith, but precedes it. Faith is itself the work of free grace and the sign and fruit of election (Rom. viii.29, 30; Acts xiii.48). We are elected in order that we may believe in Christ and bring forth the fruits of holiness. Faith is trust and confidence in Christ, the union of the soul with him, and full of good works. Hence it is preposterous to charge this doctrine with dangerous tendency to carnal security and immorality. [730]
This is substantially Zwingli's doctrine, as he preached it during the Conference in Marburg (1529), and taught it in his book on Providence [731] It was afterwards more fully and clearly developed by the powerful intellect of Calvin, [732] who made it the prominent pillar of his theology and impressed it upon the majority of the Reformed Confessions, although several of them simply teach a free election to salvation, without saying a word of the decree of reprobation.
On this subject, however, as previously stated, there was no controversy among the early Reformers. They were all Augustinians. Luther heard Zwingli's sermon on Providence in Marburg, and made no objection to it, except that he quoted Greek and Hebrew in the pulpit. He had expressed himself much more strongly on the subject in his famous book against Erasmus (1525). There was, however, this difference, that Luther, like Augustine, from his denial of the freedom of the human will, was driven to the doctrine of absolute predestination, as a logical consequence; while Zwingli, and still more Calvin, started from the absolute sovereignty of God, and inferred from it the dependence of the human will; yet all of them were controlled by their strong sense of sin and free grace much more than by speculative principles. The Lutheran Church afterwards dropped the theological inference in part -- namely, the decree of reprobation -- and taught instead the universality of the offer of saving grace; but she retained the anthropological premise of total depravity and inability, and also the doctrine of a free election of the saints, or predestination to salvation; and this after all is the chief point in the Calvinistic system, and the only one which is made the subject of popular instruction. In the Lutheran Church, morever, the election theory is moderated by the sacramental principle of baptismal regeneration (as was the case with Augustine), while in the Reformed Church the doctrine of election controls and modifies the sacramental principle, so that the efficacy of baptism is made to depend upon the preceding election.
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lesliedellow
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QUOTE:
"For if we believe it to be true, that God foreknows and foreordains all things, that he can be neither deceived nor hindered in his prescience and predestination; and that nothing can take place but according to his will (which Reason herself is compelled to confess); then, even according to the testimony of Reason herself, there can be no free will - in man - in angel - or in any creature!" (Martin Luther - The Bondage of the Will)
One would think that is clear enough.
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