YOUNG EARTH Vs. OLD EARTH

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bhsmte

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Because, by definition, eisegesis is reading into the text what you want to be there, rather than out of it what the author put there. All very post modern, and all.

Ok. What about the other methods brought up by SFS? How does one choose? Which method is best for accuracy and why?
 
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lesliedellow

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Ok. What about the other methods brought up by SFS? How does one choose? Which method is best for accuracy and why?

I do not know enough about the subject to give an opinion, but I suspect that the answer is more complicated than "Always, and under all circumstances, use method X."

Schleiermacher's theology would probably warn me off of him, because if his hermeneutical approach gets you where it got him......
 
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mark kennedy

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Only if you use it right.

The Bible doesn't give the date of the origin of life. That's not what it's for. It's not a science book.
It give an unbroken list of relative dates spanning thousands of years from Adam to Christ. Science isn't God.
 
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greenguzzi

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It give an unbroken list of relative dates spanning thousands of years from Adam to Christ. Science isn't God.
Where is this list of unbroken dates?
 
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greenguzzi

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Opening my old copy of New Horizons in Hermeneutics, I find chapter titles like "The Hermeneutics of Tradition", "Schleiermacher's Hermeneutics of Understanding", "The Hermeneutics of Self-Involvement: From Existentialist Models to Speech-Act Theory", "The Hermenteutics of Metacriticism", "The Hermeneutics of Suspicion and Retrieval" and "The Hermeneutics of Reading in Reader-Response Theories of Literary Meaning". Which of those should I be adopting, and why?
Ah, I see what you mean. I'll need to think about that one.
 
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mark kennedy

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Rome isn't conflicted about creation:

Some however, rashly transgress this liberty of discussion, when they act as if the origin of the human body from pre-existing and living matter were already completely certain and proved by the facts (HG 36)​

So far as the Catholic Church is concerned, the important facts about Adam are:

a.) That he sinned, and
b.) That all humans alive today are descended from him.

That doesn't mean that they don't think the story is heavy with symbolism. For example, the talking snake is there as a foil, because somebody had to do the tempting, and plucking fruit from the tree of knowledge is understood to mean a grasping after the kind of knowledge which would put him on an equal footing with God.

This comes up form time to time, it's not as ambiguise as it seems:

Some however, rashly transgress this liberty of discussion, when they act as if the origin of the human body from pre-existing and living matter were already completely certain and proved by the facts which have been discovered up to now and by reasoning on those facts, and as if there were nothing in the sources of divine revelation which demands the greatest moderation and caution in this question. (Humani Generis 36)
What the encyclical really says is that Catholics are at liberty to speculate about evolutionary scenarios. This is in no way shape or form a ringing endorsement of evolution as natural history. What was outright condemned as heresy is the belief that Adam and Eve represented a certain number of first parents. This is called polygenism.

37. When, however, there is question of another conjectural opinion, namely polygenism, the children of the Church by no means enjoy such liberty. For the faithful cannot embrace that opinion which maintains that either after Adam there existed on this earth true men who did not take their origin through natural generation from him as from the first parent of all, or that Adam represents a certain number of first parents. Now it is in no way apparent how such an opinion can be reconciled with that which the sources of revealed truth and the documents of the Teaching Authority of the Church propose with regard to original sin, which proceeds from a sin actually committed by an individual Adam and which, through generation, is passed on to all and is in everyone as his own. (Humani Generis 37)
HUMANI GENERIS has never been an endorsement of Darwinism, but a warning of these dangers:

1. Christian culture being attacked on all sides
2. men easily persuade themselves in such matters that what they do not wish to believe is false or at least doubtful
5.Some imprudently and indiscreetly hold that evolution, which has not been fully proved even in the domain of natural sciences, explains the origin of all things,
6. Such fictitious tenets of evolution which repudiate all that is absolute, firm and immutable, have paved the way for the new erroneous philosophy
7. There is also a certain historicism, which attributing value only to the events of man's life, overthrows the foundation of all truth and absolute law, both on the level of philosophical speculations and especially to Christian dogmas.
10. desirous of novelty, and fearing to be considered ignorant of recent scientific findings, try to withdraw themselves from the sacred Teaching Authority and are accordingly in danger of gradually departing from revealed truth and of drawing others along with them into error.
11. some questioned whether the traditional apologetics of the Church did not constitute an obstacle rather than a help to the winning of souls for Christ
12 the removal of which would bring about the union of all, but only to their destruction.
17. things (truths of the faith) may be replaced by conjectural notions and by some formless and unstable tenets of a new philosophy, tenets which, like the flowers of the field, are in existence today and die tomorrow;
22. For some go so far as to pervert the sense of the Vatican Council's definition that God is the author of Holy Scripture, and they put forward again the opinion, already often condemned, which asserts that immunity from error extends only to those parts of the Bible that treat of God or of moral and religious matters.
28. These and like errors, it is clear, have crept in among certain of Our sons who are deceived by imprudent zeal for souls or by false science. To them We are compelled with grief to repeat once again truths already well known, and to point out with solicitude clear errors and dangers of error.​

In other words, Humani Generis is warning against the dangers of Modernism.

The Catechisms of Rome clearly connects our origin to teleology (the end to which things are directed). The one that follows more clearly indicates the domain of natural science and the heart of this controversy. Namely, chance and necessity or an Intelligent Designer being the primary cause of life on earth:

284 The great interest accorded to these studies is strongly stimulated by a question of another order, which goes beyond the proper domain of the natural sciences. It is not only a question of knowing when and how the universe arose physically, or when man appeared, but rather of discovering the meaning of such an origin: is the universe governed by chance, blind fate, anonymous necessity, or by a transcendent, intelligent and good Being called "God"? (Catechism of the Catholic Church, CCC 284)

289 Among all the Scriptural texts about creation, the first three chapters of Genesis occupy a unique place. From a literary standpoint these texts may have had diverse sources. The inspired authors have placed them at the beginning of Scripture to express in their solemn language the truths of creation - its origin and its end in God, its order and goodness, the vocation of man, and finally the drama of sin and the hope of salvation. (CCC 289)​

The themes of these catechisms will be familiar to anyone who has explored the subject of evolution as natural history. Teleology, Chance and Necessity, Original Sin and the inextricable link of creation to salvation. Creation is the beginning of God's redemptive history, evolution is one long argument against creation and clearly, these catechisms should never be confused with an endorsement of universal common descent. The RCC has made it crystal clear that to reject creation is to reject the Gospel.

Have a nice day :)
Mark
 
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greenguzzi

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Throughout, actually learn something about Scriptures before you make up your mind.

I've been studying scripture for 40 years. I have learnt plenty, but I still have lots more to learn, and I have an open mind.

So tell me, where I can find this list of unbroken dates you speak of. Or if that's too difficult, give me two or more contiguous examples. You are making a big claim, so you need to back it up if you want to be taken seriously.
 
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46AND2

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Throughout, actually learn something about Scriptures before you make up your mind.

I think you should take your own advice, as there is no such list of unbroken dates.
 
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mark kennedy

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I think you should take your own advice, as there is no such list of unbroken dates.
Shows how much you know, start with the genealogies of Genesis and build you opinion of something substantive.
 
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mark kennedy

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I've been studying scripture for 40 years. I have learnt plenty, but I still have lots more to learn, and I have an open mind.

So tell me, where I can find this list of unbroken dates you speak of. Or if that's too difficult, give me two or more contiguous examples. You are making a big claim, so you need to back it up if you want to be taken seriously.
I actually took the time to learn what the Scriptures say, and I don't spend all my time any more jumping through hoops over pedantic one liners.
 
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46AND2

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Shows how much you know, start with the genealogies of Genesis and build you opinion of something substantive.

I know that the Bible doesn't give ages of parenthood after Abraham, making it rather difficult to support your claim of unbroken dates through Christ...
 
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greenguzzi

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I actually took the time to learn what the Scriptures say, and I don't spend all my time any more jumping through hoops over pedantic one liners.

So you just made that up, and the list isn't in the Bible after all huh? Shame, I was hoping I'd just missed it. That does happen to me sometimes.

No one is going to take your claims seriously if you keep playing these silly games.
 
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greenguzzi

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Shows how much you know, start with the genealogies of Genesis and build you opinion of something substantive.

That's not a list of dates, it's a genealogy. Not the same thing at all. Especially as you can't treat an ancient genealogy with the same rules that you would a modern one. They serve completely different purposes. If this is the best you have, then there is no Biblical evidence for your claim.
 
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lesliedellow

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It give an unbroken list of relative dates spanning thousands of years from Adam to Christ. Science isn't God.

Um, no it doesn't. Even Bishop Ussher had to resort to secular sources.
 
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lesliedellow

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Rome isn't conflicted about creation:

Some however, rashly transgress this liberty of discussion, when they act as if the origin of the human body from pre-existing and living matter were already completely certain and proved by the facts (HG 36)​



This comes up form time to time, it's not as ambiguise as it seems:

Some however, rashly transgress this liberty of discussion, when they act as if the origin of the human body from pre-existing and living matter were already completely certain and proved by the facts which have been discovered up to now and by reasoning on those facts, and as if there were nothing in the sources of divine revelation which demands the greatest moderation and caution in this question. (Humani Generis 36)
What the encyclical really says is that Catholics are at liberty to speculate about evolutionary scenarios. This is in no way shape or form a ringing endorsement of evolution as natural history. What was outright condemned as heresy is the belief that Adam and Eve represented a certain number of first parents. This is called polygenism.

37. When, however, there is question of another conjectural opinion, namely polygenism, the children of the Church by no means enjoy such liberty. For the faithful cannot embrace that opinion which maintains that either after Adam there existed on this earth true men who did not take their origin through natural generation from him as from the first parent of all, or that Adam represents a certain number of first parents. Now it is in no way apparent how such an opinion can be reconciled with that which the sources of revealed truth and the documents of the Teaching Authority of the Church propose with regard to original sin, which proceeds from a sin actually committed by an individual Adam and which, through generation, is passed on to all and is in everyone as his own. (Humani Generis 37)
HUMANI GENERIS has never been an endorsement of Darwinism, but a warning of these dangers:

1. Christian culture being attacked on all sides
2. men easily persuade themselves in such matters that what they do not wish to believe is false or at least doubtful
5.Some imprudently and indiscreetly hold that evolution, which has not been fully proved even in the domain of natural sciences, explains the origin of all things,
6. Such fictitious tenets of evolution which repudiate all that is absolute, firm and immutable, have paved the way for the new erroneous philosophy
7. There is also a certain historicism, which attributing value only to the events of man's life, overthrows the foundation of all truth and absolute law, both on the level of philosophical speculations and especially to Christian dogmas.
10. desirous of novelty, and fearing to be considered ignorant of recent scientific findings, try to withdraw themselves from the sacred Teaching Authority and are accordingly in danger of gradually departing from revealed truth and of drawing others along with them into error.
11. some questioned whether the traditional apologetics of the Church did not constitute an obstacle rather than a help to the winning of souls for Christ
12 the removal of which would bring about the union of all, but only to their destruction.
17. things (truths of the faith) may be replaced by conjectural notions and by some formless and unstable tenets of a new philosophy, tenets which, like the flowers of the field, are in existence today and die tomorrow;
22. For some go so far as to pervert the sense of the Vatican Council's definition that God is the author of Holy Scripture, and they put forward again the opinion, already often condemned, which asserts that immunity from error extends only to those parts of the Bible that treat of God or of moral and religious matters.
28. These and like errors, it is clear, have crept in among certain of Our sons who are deceived by imprudent zeal for souls or by false science. To them We are compelled with grief to repeat once again truths already well known, and to point out with solicitude clear errors and dangers of error.​

In other words, Humani Generis is warning against the dangers of Modernism.

The Catechisms of Rome clearly connects our origin to teleology (the end to which things are directed). The one that follows more clearly indicates the domain of natural science and the heart of this controversy. Namely, chance and necessity or an Intelligent Designer being the primary cause of life on earth:

284 The great interest accorded to these studies is strongly stimulated by a question of another order, which goes beyond the proper domain of the natural sciences. It is not only a question of knowing when and how the universe arose physically, or when man appeared, but rather of discovering the meaning of such an origin: is the universe governed by chance, blind fate, anonymous necessity, or by a transcendent, intelligent and good Being called "God"? (Catechism of the Catholic Church, CCC 284)

289 Among all the Scriptural texts about creation, the first three chapters of Genesis occupy a unique place. From a literary standpoint these texts may have had diverse sources. The inspired authors have placed them at the beginning of Scripture to express in their solemn language the truths of creation - its origin and its end in God, its order and goodness, the vocation of man, and finally the drama of sin and the hope of salvation. (CCC 289)​

The themes of these catechisms will be familiar to anyone who has explored the subject of evolution as natural history. Teleology, Chance and Necessity, Original Sin and the inextricable link of creation to salvation. Creation is the beginning of God's redemptive history, evolution is one long argument against creation and clearly, these catechisms should never be confused with an endorsement of universal common descent. The RCC has made it crystal clear that to reject creation is to reject the Gospel.

Have a nice day :)
Mark

Quote:
"Taking into account the state of scientific research at the time as well as of the requirements of theology, the encyclical 'Humani Generis' considered the doctrine of 'evolutionism' a serious hypothesis, worthy of investigation and in-depth study equal to that of the opposing hypothesis. Pius XII added two methodological conditions: that this opinion should not be adopted as though it were a certain, proven doctrine and as though one could totally prescind from revelation with regard to the questions it raises. He also spelled out the condition on which this opinion would be compatible with the Christian faith, a point to which I will return. Today, almost half a century after the publication of the encyclical, new knowledge has led to the recognition of the theory of evolution as more than a hypothesis. It is indeed remarkable that this theory has been progressively accepted by researchers, following a series of discoveries in various fields of knowledge. The convergence, neither sought nor fabricated, of the results of work that was conducted independently is in itself a significant argument in favor of this theory." (Pope John Paul II)

I have heard the story of a Catholic scientist, it might have been Ken Miller - I can't remember, who was attending a scientific conference in the Vatican. A group of priests, who were also scientists, called him over to their table, and asked him, in incredulous tones, whether it was really true that 40% of Americans thought the Earth was 6,000 years old.
 
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Ophiolite

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Shows how much you know, start with the genealogies of Genesis and build you opinion of something substantive.
46and2, greenguzzi and lesliedellow have each asserted that these genealogies are neither a list of dates, nor continuous. This is an area in which I have extensive ignorance. Please help remove that ignorance by providing the list of dates.
 
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bhsmte

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46and2, greenguzzi and lesliedellow have each asserted that these genealogies are neither a list of dates, nor continuous. This is an area in which I have extensive ignorance. Please help remove that ignorance by providing the list of dates.

Good luck.
 
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Doveaman

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In your hypothesis, is the "new life" related to the "old life" in any way at all?
In a sense.
Just as Eve was formed from the skeletal rib of Adam, some new life-forms on earth would have been re-created from the skeletal remains of the old life-forms that are now extinct.
This would explain the relationship between apes and humans - re-creation with modification.
 
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