Yeshua tempted...

BukiRob

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Let's pretend there are evil angels and Jesus was indeed a god. How far backwards does one have to bend to explain how is it possible that a creature that was in the presence of Gd, in all his glory, can tempt him with ruling over some ancient kingdoms? On Earth. It's a silly premise.

But then such is the nature of the flesh. It does not operate under the guise of logic. Nor rebellion for that matter. But none the less we see that the unwavering truth about the nature of man is that at his most basic level man is rebellious.
 
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gadar perets

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Not at all.

He took on the role of the suffering servant and it in no way precluded him being Divine.

I refuse to accept this nonsense that Yeshua was "just a man"
I never said he was "just a man". He was a man begotten directly by YHWH (the only true Elohim) without the aid of a man. There is no such thing as a "God Man".

A "Divine" being cannot die. If he was the "suffering servant" of Isa 53, then he was "smitten of God" (vs. 4). Yet, if he was "God", then you have two "Gods", one suffering and one smiting. Talk about nonsense!
 
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gadar perets

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Yeshua forgave sin. Only G-d forgives the sins of another.
Yeshua forgave sin because the only true Elohim gave him that authority.

As for your ridiculous attempt to marginalize the worship of Yeshua, the disciples did not do that they flat out, straight up WORSHIPED him.
I'll address this when I have more time.
 
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gadar perets

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By reading the text there are several examples of people falling to their knees and worshiping Yeshua.
Can you please cite them?

Even if bowing the knee is what makes the difference, where are we told to worship the Son as though he were our Heavenly Father or the only true Elohim? We proskuneo or shachah the Son for who he is and what he has done and not for being our Father or the only true God. If you are bowing your knees to Yeshua to worship him as the Elohim of our fathers, you are committing idolatry.

And the greatest of all evidence is when Yeshua is speaking to the high priest when question as to whether he was the messiah? Yeshua answered him by saying I AM.
I agree with him. He is the Messiah. He wasn't saying he is the great "I AM" of Ex 3:14. That is easily disproved.

Mark 14:64 62 And Jesus said, “I am; and you shall see THE SON OF MAN SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF POWER, and COMING WITH THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN.”63 Tearing his clothes, the high priest said, “What further need do we have of witnesses? 64 “You have heard the blasphemy; how does it seem to you?” And they all condemned Him to be deserving of death.
Mark 14:61 But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed?
The high priest knew the Messiah they awaited was NOT the "the Blessed" One (Father YHWH), but His Son. Yeshua agreed.

Mark 14:62 And Yeshua said, I am (the Messiah): and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
The "power" refers to Father YHWH. Yeshua is sitting on the right side of Father YHWH (Psalm 110:1). Father YHWH is on Yeshua's left. Two beings. One is the "Blessed" One and the "power" and the other is the SON of that being.
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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The Greek word translated “worship” is “proskuneo” meaning; to kiss, like a dog licking his master’s hand); to fawn or crouch to, that is, (literally or figuratively) prostrate oneself in homage (do reverence to, adore). It is the same word used in Exodus 34:14 in the Septuagint for the worship of YHWH.

Revelation 3:9 - Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.​

This is being said by Yeshua to the believers comprising the Philadelphia church. A time will come in the future when Yeshua will command his followers to be worshipped as well. Now, should we consider these men to be “Gods” simply because they are worshipped? No. Neither should we consider the Son to be “God” simply because he was worshipped.

Yeshua and the believers in the Philadelphia church are not being worshipped as YHWH (God), but as YHWH’s representatives. They are being bowed down to and given honor as such.

Much confusion concerning “worship” arises from the fact that the Hebrew and Greek words for translated “worship” were translated differently when the “worship” was directed toward men.

The Hebrew word translated “worship” is Strong’s#7812 – “shachah” meaning; to depress, that is, prostrate (especially reflexively in homage to royalty or God). Here are the various ways it was translated in the KJV; bow (self) down, crouch, fall down (flat), humbly beseech, do (make) obeisance, do reverence, make to stoop, worship.

An example of “shachah” from one man to another is found in Genesis 23:7;

And Abraham stood up, and bowed himself to the people of the land, even to the children of Heth.​

In Gen 33:3, Jacob bowed down to Esau;

But he himself passed on ahead of them and bowed down to the ground seven times, until he came near to his brother.​

What if “shachah” was translated “worship” here instead of “bowed down”? Would that make Esau “God”? Of course not. Neither does Yeshua receiving “worship” make him “God”.

Yeshua himself will command men to worship his followers. That does not make his followers “God”. They will be worshipped” or “bowed down to” as representatives of Yahweh and Yeshua.

Yeshua is deserving of our “worship” as we bow down to him, honor him, and adore him. However, it is Almighty Yahweh alone that we are to worship as the one true God.

Shachah....Barukh...Berekh...
There is a difference and a similarity between "to bow down", "to knell", "to worship" and "to venerate"...
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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Can you please cite them?

Even if bowing the knee is what makes the difference, where are we told to worship the Son as though he were our Heavenly Father or the only true Elohim? We proskuneo or shachah the Son for who he is and what he has done and not for being our Father or the only true God. If you are bowing your knees to Yeshua to worship him as the Elohim of our fathers, you are committing idolatry.


I agree with him. He is the Messiah. He wasn't saying he is the great "I AM" of Ex 3:14. That is easily disproved.


Mark 14:61 But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed?
The high priest knew the Messiah they awaited was NOT the "the Blessed" One (Father YHWH), but His Son. Yeshua agreed.

Mark 14:62 And Yeshua said, I am (the Messiah): and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
The "power" refers to Father YHWH. Yeshua is sitting on the right side of Father YHWH (Psalm 110:1). Father YHWH is on Yeshua's left. Two beings. One is the "Blessed" One and the "power" and the other is the SON of that being.

John 8:58
...before Abraham was, I AM.
...πρὶν Ἀβραὰμ γενέσθαι, ἐγὼ εἰμί.
 
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BukiRob

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I never said he was "just a man". He was a man begotten directly by YHWH (the only true Elohim) without the aid of a man. There is no such thing as a "God Man".

A "Divine" being cannot die. If he was the "suffering servant" of Isa 53, then he was "smitten of God" (vs. 4). Yet, if he was "God", then you have two "Gods", one suffering and one smiting. Talk about nonsense!
Apparently you are ignore what Yeshua said... he had the right to lay down his life and pick it up again. I know of no man before, nor since that had that gift.

So since in your view explain the biology of how Yeshua was just a man.

Miriam as a female has XX chromosomes. In order for a male to be born a Y chromosome has to be introduced. What you are saying is "Well G-d did impregnate Miriam but the only part of what was produced was the Y chromosome..." I say that is bunk. Scripture makes it abundantly clear that Yeshua WAS WORSHIPED. His Answer to the High Priest shows that THEY saw his statement to being equated to G-d His claiming to be messiah would not have been blasphemy unless the High Priest and the Sanhedrin viewed Messiah as being divine.
 
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tatteredsoul

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God Cannot Be Tempted. Yeshua Was Tempted. Therefore, Yeshua was not God is the argument ...

James 1:13, "Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone." ...

Therefore, it is fair to say that Yeshua could have been truly tempted. Could Yeshua fail at His mission by allowing the human side of Him give in to temptation just like the rest of mankind?

The word(s) used for tempted in James 1:13:

peirazo - to test, to entice, to scrutinize...
apeirastos - untried, not temptable

And, the implication is that no only is one tempted, but the temptation is so strong that one is in danger of giving into the temptation. For both Christ, and God, they are "apeirastos." Christ wasn't temped in the way the Greeks knew temptation (which usually ended in a tragedy, or a form of the tempted giving in partly, or wholly into temptation.) Christ never gave in once, and you have to say, "if He was temped just like all of us in every way, then the Satanic temptations were only a literal few in a plethora of temptations He overcame."

For one thing, He was tempted through love and friendship - really brotherhood and sisterhood - to not die on the cross. Could you imagine having fun with your best friends, and each and every one of them at one point, in one way or another, continuously begs you not to die so that you all can "have fun and be happy" forever? At one point, He had to rebuke Peter for this.

I think we got to "see" an evolution of Christ rejecting temptation because 1) He was human, and it shows us humans how to be victorious over the power of temptation and sin, and 2) it was our gift - a solutions manual to the textbook of overcoming the enemy in general. He never gave into temptation; just because one is tempted doesn't mean they are able to be enticed, tested or scrutinized. The Pharisees tried to scrutinize Christ... didn't work either, and they had to leave with egg on their faces several times.

God is described as "untried," and "not temptable." Connotatively, this doesn't mean He isn't ever tried (after all, He tells us not to tempt Him; clearly this is because many entities do try to tempt Him.) It means He cant be tried, or tempted. If you watch Game of Thrones, it is like the title of Daenerys: "Mother of Dragons... Queen of Mereen... unburnt." She is not unburnt because she has never been lit on fire before. She is unburnt because fire cannot burn her. God is apeirastos not because He isn't tempted, but because He cannot be given into the tempted in any way of constitution.

I am marginally interested in the cultural phenomenon of disconnecting Christ and God the Father as one. If I had a son, he would be me: 2.0. I may even go so far as to name my son after me, after the combination and summation of who I think I am/represent. I wouldn't have a problem with my son saying he is me because it would be true. But, He wouldnt be the Father (me) - the one who can give authority, take it away, and bestow inherentences. Anything my son gets from me is his. And, my son will know I am his father, and I have the final authority. Moreover, if we were talking about a King-Prince relationship, my Prince/son would have all authority I grant him from the throne, and he would represent the throne for me, in my name.

I don't ever think Christ - though He said He and the Father are one - ever equated Himself to God the Father. And, He always told us to pray to the Father, and that the authority He has, and everything He got was from the Father. (That would mean that He is at least recognizing a hierarchy involved, but that doesn't make Him any less [in unity with] God.)
 
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BukiRob

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Can you please cite them?

Even if bowing the knee is what makes the difference, where are we told to worship the Son as though he were our Heavenly Father or the only true Elohim? We proskuneo or shachah the Son for who he is and what he has done and not for being our Father or the only true God. If you are bowing your knees to Yeshua to worship him as the Elohim of our fathers, you are committing idolatry.


I agree with him. He is the Messiah. He wasn't saying he is the great "I AM" of Ex 3:14. That is easily disproved.


Mark 14:61 But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed?
The high priest knew the Messiah they awaited was NOT the "the Blessed" One (Father YHWH), but His Son. Yeshua agreed.

Mark 14:62 And Yeshua said, I am (the Messiah): and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
The "power" refers to Father YHWH. Yeshua is sitting on the right side of Father YHWH (Psalm 110:1). Father YHWH is on Yeshua's left. Two beings. One is the "Blessed" One and the "power" and the other is the SON of that being.


I think this has run its course. We aren't going to change either's view on this point... :)
 
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First.. do you believe in original sin... right down to the DNA?

Ezekiel 18:1-4
1 The word of the LORD came unto me again, saying,
2 What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge?
3 As I live, saith the Lord GOD, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel.
4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Jeremiah 31:29-31
29 In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge.
30 But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.
31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:


Second... did Yeshua take on sinful flesh?

Romans 8:3
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:


Third... when tempted could Yeshua have failed?

John 16:33
33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

.
.
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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First.. do you believe in original sin... right down to the DNA?
Second... did Yeshua take on sinful flesh?
Third... when tempted could Yeshua have failed?

Original sin in what way, the Roman Catholic way or the Orthodox way? They are very different...
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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First.. do you believe in original sin... right down to the DNA?
Second... did Yeshua take on sinful flesh?
Third... when tempted could Yeshua have failed?

NO
NO...because there is no such thing. This is why the Roman church had to make up the Immaculate Conception of Mary.
YES but He chose not to as He did His Father's Will

You see, we are NOT born with some original guilt from Adam's sin. I was not in the garden, were you? We DO suffer from the CONSEQUENCES (death) of it. The wages of sin is death. We all sin and we all can die. If someone kills 1000s of people with an atomic bomb are we guilty of that? No. Can we suffer the consequences of it...radiation poisoning and death...yes.
 
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gadar perets

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John 8:58
...before Abraham was, I AM.
...πρὶν Ἀβραὰμ γενέσθαι, ἐγὼ εἰμί.
I asked you to cite examples "of people falling to their knees and worshiping Yeshua."
 
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gadar perets

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I am marginally interested in the cultural phenomenon of disconnecting Christ and God the Father as one. If I had a son, he would be me: 2.0. I may even go so far as to name my son after me, after the combination and summation of who I think I am/represent. I wouldn't have a problem with my son saying he is me because it would be true. But, He wouldnt be the Father (me) - the one who can give authority, take it away, and bestow inherentences. Anything my son gets from me is his. And, my son will know I am his father, and I have the final authority. Moreover, if we were talking about a King-Prince relationship, my Prince/son would have all authority I grant him from the throne, and he would represent the throne for me, in my name.

I don't ever think Christ - though He said He and the Father are one - ever equated Himself to God the Father. And, He always told us to pray to the Father, and that the authority He has, and everything He got was from the Father. (That would mean that He is at least recognizing a hierarchy involved, but that doesn't make Him any less [in unity with] God.)
:oldthumbsup:
 
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