YES or NO: Is It Fair That Some People Are Going To Hell?

[Floatingaxe]

What about this parable of Jesus:
The Parable of the Wedding Banquet

1Jesus spoke to them again in parables, saying: 2"The kingdom of heaven is like a king who prepared a wedding banquet for his son. 3He sent his servants to those who had been invited to the banquet to tell them to come, but they refused to come.

4"Then he sent some more servants and said, 'Tell those who have been invited that I have prepared my dinner: My oxen and fattened cattle have been butchered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding banquet.'
5"But they paid no attention and went off—one to his field, another to his business. 6The rest seized his servants, mistreated them and killed them. 7The king was enraged. He sent his army and destroyed those murderers and burned their city.
8"Then he said to his servants, 'The wedding banquet is ready, but those I invited did not deserve to come. 9Go to the street corners and invite to the banquet anyone you find.' 10So the servants went out into the streets and gathered all the people they could find, both good and bad, and the wedding hall was filled with guests.
11"But when the king came in to see the guests, he noticed a man there who was not wearing wedding clothes. 12'Friend,' he asked, 'how did you get in here without wedding clothes?' The man was speechless.
13"Then the king told the attendants, 'Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.' 14"For many are invited, but few are chosen."

Why do y'all think the king was so angry at the man who was not there on the king's terms? Why is the man without the wedding clothes different those who were wearing them?

Excellent!

 

[Zecryphon]

That's what the cross was for. And it's not as though sin doesn't come with consequences--we can still get temporally nailed big time for goofing off, LOL! It's just that God doesn't need the consequences to be endless to be effective. A lesser god might need eternity to get a point across, but not the one True God. He's just plain toooo gooooooood at what He does!

"That's what the cross was for."

No, that's not what the cross was for. The cross is a means of execution. Jesus is the substitutionary atonement for those sins. The cross was never about punishing sinners, the way the lake of fire and Hell are.

"And it's not as though sin doesn't come with consequences--we can still get temporally nailed big time for goofing off, LOL!"

By whom? People in this world, that's true. But when youstep into eternity, where God rules, then you get nailed by God.

"It's just that God doesn't need the consequences to be endless to be effective."

What's the purpose of punishment in your mind here? To effect a change in the person? So, that if a person spends enough time in Hell or the Lake of Fire, God's wrath will be satisfied and then the person can go to Heaven, because they paid their fine? That's heresy. It's works-righteousness at it's absolute worst. You're being punished, for eternity, by an eternal judge, because you decided to have your case judged after you died and stepped into eternity with that judge.

You're paying for your sins. The only way "effectiveness" plays a role, is if there is a chance you get out of Hell or the Lake of Fire. Scripture does not teach that anyone does.

"A lesser god might need eternity to get a point across, but not the one True God."

There are no lesser gods. There's just God. The other gods are figments of people's imaginations. The point that God got across is that no one can come to Him except by Jesus and there is no other name given under Heaven by which man is saved. If you reject that truth, and in turn reject God and His gift of salvation through faith in Christ, you can't turn around and blame God for the consequences.

 

[Tavita]

What about this parable of Jesus:
The Parable of the Wedding Banquet

1Jesus spoke to them again in parables, saying: 2"The kingdom of heaven is like a king who prepared a wedding banquet for his son. 3He sent his servants to those who had been invited to the banquet to tell them to come, but they refused to come.

4"Then he sent some more servants and said, 'Tell those who have been invited that I have prepared my dinner: My oxen and fattened cattle have been butchered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding banquet.'
5"But they paid no attention and went off—one to his field, another to his business. 6The rest seized his servants, mistreated them and killed them. 7The king was enraged. He sent his army and destroyed those murderers and burned their city.
8"Then he said to his servants, 'The wedding banquet is ready, but those I invited did not deserve to come. 9Go to the street corners and invite to the banquet anyone you find.' 10So the servants went out into the streets and gathered all the people they could find, both good and bad, and the wedding hall was filled with guests.
11"But when the king came in to see the guests, he noticed a man there who was not wearing wedding clothes. 12'Friend,' he asked, 'how did you get in here without wedding clothes?' The man was speechless.
13"Then the king told the attendants, 'Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.' 14"For many are invited, but few are chosen."

Why do y'all think the king was so angry at the man who was not there on the king's terms? Why is the man without the wedding clothes different from
those who were wearing them?

Where do these scriptures say that this is 'eternal'??

This is about the wedding feast and is for those who have 'overcome' in this lifetime. They have been chosen to become priests and kings unto God and to become the Bride of Christ. That doesn't mean ALL mankind will receive this reward.

A person in this lifetime can 'weep and gnash' their teeth in torment too.

 

[beechy]

In my opinion, that is the most ridiculous analogy
I have ever heard and I have heard many a ridiculous analogy.

Again, my analogy builds off Nadiine's post regarding God as a parent, and allowing children to be born with defects because you love them .... Don't know why or how that is a three laughing smiley face topic ...

 

[Tavita]

What's the purpose of punishment in your mind here? To effect a change in the person? So, that if a person spends enough time in Hell or the Lake of Fire, God's wrath will be satisfied and then the person can go to Heaven, because they paid their fine?

.. if you believe in Christ now, then you know for sure personally that Jesus has met God's requirement of justice. You know God's wrath has been averted by the blood sacrifice... yet... you still go through the fire. He does not leave you in the state he found you. To effectively have the 'flesh' removed from your life.. to be able to effectively 'die' to the flesh, He will put you through the fire, and sometimes very hot fires. The fire He puts you through will destroy the flesh in you. When you are baptized in the Holy Spirit you are also baptized in His fire. If you are not going through any fires, then you are not baptized in Holy Spirit.

Yes, Jesus died for our sins and they are washed away by His blood, but we still have to 'die' to the flesh.. and this is what is burned on the alter.. flesh.

 

[Tavita]

I have an appointment to keep... catch you all later...

 

[Floatingaxe]

.. if you believe in Christ now, then you know for sure personally that Jesus has met God's requirement of justice. You know God's wrath has been averted by the blood sacrifice... yet... you still go through the fire. He does not leave you in the state he found you. To effectively have the 'flesh' removed from your life.. to be able to effectively 'die' to the flesh, He will put you through the fire, and sometimes very hot fires. The fire He puts you through will destroy the flesh in you. When you are baptized in the Holy Spirit you are also baptized in His fire. If you are not going through any fires, then you are not baptized in Holy Spirit.

Yes, Jesus died for our sins and they are washed away by His blood, but we still have to 'die' to the flesh.. and this is what is burned on the alter.. flesh.

It is our works that are burned in the end. In the Judgment of Christ, the Bema Seat--where no unbeliever can go. Why? Because they have rejected their King and they will have to stand before God at the Great White Throne Judgment--a place where Christians do not have to stand.

That is where people will have to kneel before God and declare Jesus as King and Lord. Then it will be, "Goodbye, forever! Never knew ya!"

 

[Rajni]

Since the quotes feature is a bit cumbersome, I've put all the statements I'm responding to in quotation marks.

This is in response to a post by Zecryphon:

"No, that's not what the cross was for. The cross is a means of execution. Jesus is the substitutionary atonement for those sins. The cross was never about punishing sinners, the way the lake of fire and Hell are."

This makes no sense. Either Jesus was the substitute or He wasn't. Either It Is Finished or It Isn't.

"By whom? People in this world, that's true. But when youstep into eternity, where God rules, then you get nailed by God."
And that nailing absolutely has to be endless to have any meaning whatsoever?

"What's the purpose of punishment in your mind here? To effect a change in the person? So, that if a person spends enough time in Hell or the Lake of Fire, God's wrath will be satisfied and then the person can go to Heaven, because they paid their fine? That's heresy. It's works-righteousness at it's absolute worst."

So what do you call the change that takes place when a person is born again under less ... stressful ... circumstances? Is that a works-rightesousness too? Change automatically means works-righteousness?

"You're paying for your sins."

Christ paid for our sins.

"The only way "effectiveness" plays a role, is if there is a chance you get out of Hell or the Lake of Fire. Scripture does not teach that anyone does."

Neither does it teach that they are endless.

"There are no lesser gods. There's just God. The other gods are figments of people's imaginations."

The one that accompanies eternal hellfire is one that comes to mind. I've been speaking out against it throughout the discussion. It's pagan in origin, actually.

"The point that God got across is that no one can come to Him except by Jesus and there is no other name given under Heaven by which man is saved."

Amen. And Jesus Himself said that when He is lifted up He will draw ("drag" in the original language, just to give you an idea of how firm of a hand He will be using in this endeavor) ALL men to Himself. (John 12:32)

 

[Rajni]

He was angry, all right! But do you see anything in the parable that suggests that the weeping and gnashing of teeth went on endlessly? (Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm asking this under the presumption that you are presenting the parable as proof positive that the punishment does go on and on forever; please ignore my post if you were driving at something completely separate from that, LOL!).

What about this parable of Jesus:
The Parable of the Wedding Banquet

1Jesus spoke to them again in parables, saying: 2"The kingdom of heaven is like a king who prepared a wedding banquet for his son. 3He sent his servants to those who had been invited to the banquet to tell them to come, but they refused to come.

4"Then he sent some more servants and said, 'Tell those who have been invited that I have prepared my dinner: My oxen and fattened cattle have been butchered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding banquet.'
5"But they paid no attention and went off—one to his field, another to his business. 6The rest seized his servants, mistreated them and killed them. 7The king was enraged. He sent his army and destroyed those murderers and burned their city.
8"Then he said to his servants, 'The wedding banquet is ready, but those I invited did not deserve to come. 9Go to the street corners and invite to the banquet anyone you find.' 10So the servants went out into the streets and gathered all the people they could find, both good and bad, and the wedding hall was filled with guests.
11"But when the king came in to see the guests, he noticed a man there who was not wearing wedding clothes. 12'Friend,' he asked, 'how did you get in here without wedding clothes?' The man was speechless.
13"Then the king told the attendants, 'Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.' 14"For many are invited, but few are chosen."

Why do y'all think the king was so angry at the man who was not there on the king's terms? Why is the man without the wedding clothes different from
those who were wearing them?

 

[Zecryphon]

.. if you believe in Christ now, then you know for sure personally that Jesus has met God's requirement of justice. You know God's wrath has been averted by the blood sacrifice... yet... you still go through the fire. He does not leave you in the state he found you. To effectively have the 'flesh' removed from your life.. to be able to effectively 'die' to the flesh, He will put you through the fire, and sometimes very hot fires. The fire He puts you through will destroy the flesh in you. When you are baptized in the Holy Spirit you are also baptized in His fire. If you are not going through any fires, then you are not baptized in Holy Spirit.

Yes, Jesus died for our sins and they are washed away by His blood, but we still have to 'die' to the flesh.. and this is what is burned on the alter.. flesh.

".. if you believe in Christ now, then you know for sure personally that Jesus has met God's requirement of justice. You know God's wrath has been averted by the blood sacrifice... yet... you still go through the fire."

What fire? The fire that equates life sucking at times? That's not fire, that's life.

"He does not leave you in the state he found you. To effectively have the 'flesh' removed from your life.. to be able to effectively 'die' to the flesh, He will put you through the fire, and sometimes very hot fires."

Fine, but that "fire" in this life has nothing to do with the Lake of Fire in eternity. Since we're speaking about Hell and the Lake of Fire and eternity, the fires of life, really aren't applicable here.

"The fire He puts you through will destroy the flesh in you. When you are baptized in the Holy Spirit you are also baptized in His fire. If you are not going through any fires, then you are not baptized in Holy Spirit."

So much for Your Best Life Now and Be a Better You by Joel Osteen huh? How dare you disagree with the most influetntial, and dare I say heretical, minister this country's ever known! LOL

"Yes, Jesus died for our sins and they are washed away by His blood, but we still have to 'die' to the flesh.. and this is what is burned on the alter.. flesh."

You're confusing two completely different time periods. You can't interchange eternity with this life as you see fit to support your theology. And dying to the flesh has nothing to do with having your flesh burned away on the altar. One thing, dying to the flesh, we do only by the power of the Holy Spirit. The other, burning the flesh at the altar, God does in eternity.

 

[Zecryphon]

"This makes no sense. Either Jesus was the substitute or He wasn't."

Good you've finally correctly identified the substitute. The cross was not for the punishment of sins. The cross was the means by which Jesus died to pay the penalty of our sins.

Either It Is Finished or It Isn't.

Yeah. So why do we need to go to Hell for only a short period of time then?

"And that nailing absolutely has to be endless to have any meaning whatsoever?"

The "nailing" is your appointment with God as judge, also known as the Great White Throne Judgment. Christians are not subject to this judgment. Only non-Christians are. You said it yourself either it was paid for at the cross or it wasn't. If it wasn't then yes, the punishment has to be eternal, because God is dealing with a sinner in eternity. A sin against God is not finite, simply because it's commited by a finite being.

"So what do you call the change that takes place when a person is born again under less ... stressful ... circumstances?"

Salvation. What do you call it?

"Is that a works-rightesousness too?"

No, because a person has nothing to do with that salvation. It is a gift from God. The person that goes to Hell and is burned for a few years or however long YOU think is fair, is doing something that will lead to them getting out. That is a work. As an ex-Catholic you should know all about this. I believe Purgatory is founded upon the same type of nonsense.

"Change automatically means works-righteousness?"

No, change in the case of a person being saved is called salvation. Change in the case of a person doing something to earn a reward of some type, in this case salvation, is works righteousness.

"Christ paid for our sins. "

Yeah, no kidding. So why are we going to Hell for a limited time again? What's the purpose of that as you understand it?

"Neither does it teach that they are endless. "

Yes it does. Matthew 25:41, go read it. I'll wait.

"The one that accompanies eternal hellfire is one that comes to mind. I've been speaking out against it throughout the discussion. It's pagan in origin, actually. "

Guess Matthew was a Pagan then, huh? Please. LOL

"Amen. And Jesus Himself said that when He is lifted up He will draw ("drag" in the original language, just to give you an idea of how firm of a hand He will be using in this endeavor) ALL men to Himself. (John 12:32"

So if that's true, to whom was Matthew referring in 25:41? Also, I'm not the one who has a problem with the firm hand of God here.

 

[shepsgirl]

Where does it say that the man gets to come back to the feast? Don't you think that Jesus would have included that part?

The Sheep and the Goats Matthew 25: 31-46
31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'
37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'
40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'
41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'
44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'
45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.' 46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

So we have one group going to eternal life with Jesus and the others going to be eternally punished.

What about this from Jude:5-7:
5Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord[c] delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. 6And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. 7In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

Who are those who suffer eternal punishment if all are saved?

Matthew 7:21-23
21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

It says many will say to Him on that day... and He tells them to get away from Him. Why is Jesus telling people to get away from Him if all are saved? Because they never accepted Him as their personal saviour during their lifetimes.

Where do these scriptures say that this is 'eternal'??

This is about the wedding feast and is for those who have 'overcome' in this lifetime. They have been chosen to become priests and kings unto God and to become the Bride of Christ. That doesn't mean ALL mankind will receive this reward.

A person in this lifetime can 'weep and gnash' their teeth in torment too.

 

[Floatingaxe]

Originally Posted by Tavita
Where do these scriptures say that this is 'eternal'??

This is about the wedding feast and is for those who have 'overcome' in this lifetime. They have been chosen to become priests and kings unto God and to become the Bride of Christ. That doesn't mean ALL mankind will receive this reward.

Hell is referred to as eternal everywhere in Scripture. NOWHERE is it NOT.

The wedding feast is for the Bride. Who is the Bride? The Elect, the Church.

Who rules and reigns with Jesus Christ forever? The Bride, the Elect, the Church. Everyone--ALL Christians will receive the reward of a crown of righteousness along with the privilege and right to reign with their King...forevder and ever.

 

[Nadiine]

Where does it say that the man gets to come back to the feast? Don't you think that Jesus would have included that part?

This has been my pet peeve about Universalism - most everything they hang onto IS READ INTO SCRIPTURE VERSES, and it's not spelled out at all.
In fact, the detail on people being shut out & condemned is extremely detailed - including the process of judgment & sentencing... but NEVER do we read one verse about the process of WHEN THEY GET RELEASED FROM PUNISHMENT & assigned anywhere else after "paying for their sins".
Some universalists refuse to even believe there's any punishment for sin - they just die & get into heaven anyways

That makes a complete joke of scripture where we're warned repeatedly of impending judgment & punishment for sin. How evil could God get to have people living in obedience all their lives & even being martyred for God's name.. while the lost & unrepentant just waltz on into heaven in their rebellion.
Scripture is repleat with warning for living in sin & rejecting Salvation offered thru Christ's blood - anyone thinking people just get the benefits of life with God when they didn't want Him in this life will get a rude awakening one day.

 

[CaDan]

Yes, those IN CHRIST. ONLY. those outside of Christ perish. That is part of the truth of the gospel message. Don't portray another gospel.

That is reading more into the sentence than is there. Your theology is influencing your translation.

 

[Floatingaxe]

That is reading more into the sentence than is there. Your theology is influencing your translation.

No it isn't. My theology is from God, and from the right dividing of His word. Try it sometime.

Either you believe what he says or you don't.

 

[Rajni]

In response to post #991 by Zecryphon



Quote:

Good you've finally correctly identified the substitute. The cross was not for the punishment of sins. The cross was the means by which Jesus died to pay the penalty of our sins.

When people say "the cross" in such dialogue, they mean Jesus. Sorry, I'm so used to dealing with people who've been at this awhile that I assumed it was understood!

Quote:


Yeah. So why do we need to go to Hell for only a short period of time then?

What's your definition of "Hell"?

Quote:
A sin against God is not finite, simply because it's commited by a finite being.

This gets back to my previous argument that if a sin is that dreadful that it would need infinite punishment, then why would an all-knowing God create someone knowing this was their future?
Quote:

Salvation. What do you call it?

And it isn't "salvation" in the more stressful circumstances because.... ?

Quote:

No, because a person has nothing to do with that salvation. It is a gift from God. The person that goes to Hell and is burned for a few years or however long YOU think is fair, is doing something that will lead to them getting out.

How do you know this is how it works, if you don't even believe in it in the first place? Your waxing dogmatic on something you don't even believe....

Quote:

No, change in the case of a person being saved is called salvation.

And salvation absolutely cannot happen after death because .... ?

Quote:
Change in the case of a person doing something to earn a reward of some type, in this case salvation, is works righteousness.

I agree with you there!

Quote:
So why are we going to Hell for a limited time again? What's the purpose of that as you understand it?

Again, what's your definition of "Hell"?

Quote:

Matthew 25:41, go read it. I'll wait.

Not everything onto which the English translation "eternal"/"everlasting" means "endless" or "infinite" in the original language. The original word is "aion" or "aionian" and is where we get the word "eon", a finite (albeit long) period of time. Habakkuk 3:6 is one example, go read it. I'll wait!

Quote:

So if that's true, to whom was Matthew referring in 25:41? Also, I'm not the one who has a problem with the firm hand of God here.


Jesus has no quarrel with Matthew, so there is no discrepancy. If those in unbelief have to go through certain things in the process of being "dragged" to Jesus, that's God's call.

No one said you had a problem with the firm hand of God, did they?

 

[CaDan]

You have the message of Christ's justice so very skewed and it is spiritually harmful to the hearer.

Mark my words: the Holy Spirit will be there making sure every one declares Jesus Christ is LORD. This scenario takes place at the end, when the choice is withdrawn and Judgment occurs. No one who refuses Christ will be rewarded. They will be thrown into everlasting torment along with Satan and his minions. But first, they will know and declare to their horror that Jesus is king of kings and lord of lords. Jesus, the perfect Judge cannot let spiritual criminals go free--that would be UNJUST!


Our Judge judges righteosuly. He never lets a criminal escape justice. All unbelievers have refused their ransom and will pay the price of their sin themselves--by their damnation and eternal death.

Why this talk of "justice"? It seems to me that Christianity is based on mercy not justice. Paul draws a contrast between what we earn and the free gift of God.

 

[Floatingaxe]

Please attempt to master the quote function. I am tiring of trying to decipher who is speaking.

Just type in [q-u-o-t-e] [/q-u-o-t-e] if you must!

 

[Rajni]

How evil could God get to have people living in obedience all their lives & even being martyred for God's name.. while the lost & unrepentant just waltz on into heaven in their rebellion. Scripture is repleat with warning for living in sin & rejecting Salvation offered thru Christ's blood - anyone thinking people just get the benefits of life with God when they didn't want Him in this life will get a rude awakening one day.

This statement reminds me of the following parable in Matthew 20:8-16:

8 "When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, 'Call the workers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last ones hired and going on to the first.'
9 "The workers who were hired about the eleventh hour came and each received a denarius.
10 So when those came who were hired first, they expected to receive more. But each one of them also received a denarius.
11 When they received it, they began to grumble against the landowner.
12 'These men who were hired last worked only one hour,' they said, 'and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day.'
13 "But he answered one of them, 'Friend, I am not being unfair to you. Didn't you agree to work for a denarius?
14 Take your pay and go. I want to give the man who was hired last the same as I gave you.
15 Don't I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?'
16 "So the last will be first, and the first will be last."