YEC, is the universe expanding?

98cwitr

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The most distant objects exhibit larger redshifts corresponding to the Hubble flow of the universe. The largest observed redshift, corresponding to the greatest distance and furthest back in time, is that of the cosmic microwave background radiation; the numerical value of its redshift is about z = 1089 (z = 0 corresponds to present time), and it shows the state of the Universe about 13.7 billion years ago, and 379,000 years after the initial moments of the Big Bang.[51]
The luminous point-like cores of quasars were the first "high-redshift" (z > 0.1) objects discovered before the improvement of telescopes allowed for the discovery of other high-redshift galaxies.
For galaxies more distant than the Local Group and the nearby Virgo Cluster, but within a thousand megaparsecs or so, the redshift is approximately proportional to the galaxy's distance. This correlation was first observed by Edwin Hubble and has come to be known as Hubble's law. Vesto Slipher was the first to discover galactic redshifts, in about the year 1912, while Hubble correlated Slipher's measurements with distances he measured by other means to formulate his Law. In the widely accepted cosmological model based on general relativity, redshift is mainly a result of the expansion of space: this means that the farther away a galaxy is from us, the more the space has expanded in the time since the light left that galaxy, so the more the light has been stretched, the more redshifted the light is, and so the faster it appears to be moving away from us. Hubble's law follows in part from the Copernican principle.[52] Because it is usually not known how luminous objects are, measuring the redshift is easier than more direct distance measurements, so redshift is sometimes in practice converted to a crude distance measurement using Hubble's law.
Gravitational interactions of galaxies with each other and clusters cause a significant scatter in the normal plot of the Hubble diagram. The peculiar velocities associated with galaxies superimpose a rough trace of the mass of virialized objects in the universe. This effect leads to such phenomena as nearby galaxies (such as the Andromeda Galaxy) exhibiting blue shifts as we fall towards a common barycenter, and redshift maps of clusters showing a Finger of God effect due to the scatter of peculiar velocities in a roughly spherical distribution.[52] This added component gives cosmologists a chance to measure the masses of objects independent of the mass to light ratio (the ratio of a galaxy's mass in solar masses to its brightness in solar luminosities), an important tool for measuring dark matter.[53]
The Hubble law's linear relationship between distance and redshift assumes that the rate of expansion of the universe is constant. However, when the universe was much younger, the expansion rate, and thus the Hubble "constant", was larger than it is today. For more distant galaxies, then, whose light has been travelling to us for much longer times, the approximation of constant expansion rate fails, and the Hubble law becomes a non-linear integral relationship and dependent on the history of the expansion rate since the emission of the light from the galaxy in question. Observations of the redshift-distance relationship can be used, then, to determine the expansion history of the universe and thus the matter and energy content.
While it was long believed that the expansion rate has been continuously decreasing since the Big Bang, recent observations of the redshift-distance relationship using Type Ia supernovae have suggested that in comparatively recent times the expansion rate of the universe has begun to accelerate.


Simply put, we can mathematically prove that solar systems exist 13.7 billion light years away, so how is it that the universe was created less than 7000 years ago?
 

ivebeenshown

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Who's to say it all started from a centerpoint? How can we tell what the rate the universe has expanded or shrunk or gone through two liters of cola was in times of past?

Why couldn't God just have put the stars where he wanted them, and have them retreat at varying rates since? Why can't we trust Moses when he wrote that it only took God six mornings and evenings to create everything, if we can trust the apostles who wrote that Jesus was born of a virgin and rose after death? They're both equally miraculous.
 
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98cwitr

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Because it's all expanding away from a centerpoint. The real topic here is that at the rate of expansion, the light takes over billions of years to even reach us.

why couldn't He just make all the matter that ever will be and made it explode? Or maybe He did put everything into motion, but then He had to have some place to put it (now we get into Big Bang vs Steady-State...which none are exactly right, but I think that if you combined both, and understand that the universe moves from order to disorder, it'll make sense).
 
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ivebeenshown

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13And the evening and the morning were the third day.
14And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
15And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
16And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
17And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
18And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
19And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

When God created the universe, all was dark. God then brought light to be separate from darkness, but did not yet form the stars. God didn't make the stars in the sky until after he had already formed the Earth and its vegetation on the third day. Vegetation would not have survived such an explosion.
 
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ivebeenshown

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Wow....did you really just post that?

Yes.

John 5:
45Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
46For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.
47But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

Moses wrote that God created the day and night, and then caused the earth to produce vegetation, and then caused the bodies of light to appear in the sky, even the Sun and the Moon which were created to govern the day and night which existed before them.

And Jesus was born of the virgin Mary, wife of Joseph, and he died and then lived.
 
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Papias

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I'vebeen wrote:
Vegetation would not have survived such an explosion.

That reminds me of the time when a YEC posted

"Evolution makes no sense. If all that were true, then how could elephants have survived the cambrian explosion? They are too big to hide in holes!"

It kinda leaves one unsure of where to start.....

Papias
 
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98cwitr

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bwhahahahaahhahahaha these guys are funny. Man, after comments like that, I just can't go on...it's irrefutable
LAWL.gif
transport017.gif


I guess I could really start by showing our dear friend how organic molecules can be formed out of amino acids using inorganic substances...it's called an atmosphere my dear friend, it's not in Genesis, but we do have one...or do you not believe that the Earth has one? Or since the Bible doesn't mention you, how do you know you exist...or even me for that matter? I'm the same guy that heavily defend Bible Inerrancy, yet if you have half a brain, you understand that not everything is in there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller–Urey_experiment
 
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Mr Dave

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When God created the universe, all was dark. God then brought light to be separate from darkness, but did not yet form the stars. God didn't make the stars in the sky until after he had already formed the Earth and its vegetation on the third day. Vegetation would not have survived such an explosion.

Unless of course you believe the second creation story in which everything happens in one day :p
 
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ivebeenshown

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yet if you have half a brain

This is not a very kind thing to say, 98cwitr.

Mr. Dave, everything does not happen in one day in the second creation account. At the beginning of Genesis 2:

1 Thus the heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array.
2 By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work. 3 And God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.​

4 This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created.
When the LORD God made the earth and the heavens- 5 and no shrub of the field had yet appeared on the earth and no plant of the field had yet sprung up, for the LORD God had not sent rain on the earth and there was no man to work the ground, 6 but streams came up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground- 7 the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.
8 Now the LORD God had planted a garden in the east, in Eden; and there he put the man he had formed. 9 And the LORD God made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground—trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food. In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

The seven days were acknowledged. From verse 4 onward, there is no mention of the days but the order of events was still the same. God brought forth vegetation and fruited trees because he had prepared the Garden of Eden for Adam. In the fields, there was no shrub or plant because Adam had yet to work the fields. As we keep reading, we find out he is very soon to begin doing just that.

I trust Jesus more than any one of you, and Jesus trusted the book of Genesis.


I'vebeen wrote:


That reminds me of the time when a YEC posted

"Evolution makes no sense. If all that were true, then how could elephants have survived the cambrian explosion? They are too big to hide in holes!"

It kinda leaves one unsure of where to start.....

Papias

That is a little funny, but it is not quite the same scenario. If God created a big bang where all matter of the universe expanded from one single point, the stars in the sky would have been formed before the Garden of Eden. God created the bodies of light in the heavens after the Garden of Eden. God is all-powerful.
 
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Mr Dave

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Which translation's that? It's missing a vital bit from the beginning of 4b.

Yours "When the Lord God made..."
Mine "In the day that the Lord God made..."

The word day is there, Genesis 2:4 Hebrew Texts and Analysis

In the day God did everything, the fields had nothing... but by the end of that one day mentioned it was.

For the record, I'm not a creationist (6 days or 1 ;)) but just wanted to point out an error you were making in saying that there were several days for creation. It does say that, but it also says it was in one.
 
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98cwitr

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This is not a very kind thing to say, 98cwitr.

I wasn't saying you have half a brain...I'm saying that if you at least have half of one (metaphorical statement there) you would be able to comprehend that not every explanation for everything is in the Good Book.


"I trust Jesus more than any one of you, and Jesus trusted the book of Genesis."

That's quite a Pharisaical statement, you don't know me and who are you to cast judgement upon me?

Why do you think I don't trust Jesus? I can believe in the Big Bang, evolution, and old earth creation and still have faith in Jesus...Paul tells us that faith is "being certain of what we are hopeful for and sure of that which we do not see."

I am hopeful that I may follow Christ all the days of my life for I am sure this will grant me passage from this life to the next, I am sure of God and His power over us.
 
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Sam Conley

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Well the biggest discrepency in this is if there was no light for some of this creation, how would he know an Earth day? For all we know 1 day to God would be a complete universal cycle or maybe all of space, who knows. But one thing is for sure he had different ideas of what a day consisted of.
 
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ivebeenshown

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"I trust Jesus more than any one of you, and Jesus trusted the book of Genesis."

That's quite a Pharisaical statement, you don't know me and who are you to cast judgement upon me?

I did not say you don't trust Jesus. I said that I trust Jesus more than you. It doesn't take any judgment to understand that Jesus is greater than you or myself.
 
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ivebeenshown

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Which translation's that? It's missing a vital bit from the beginning of 4b.

Yours "When the Lord God made..."
Mine "In the day that the Lord God made..."

The word day is there, Genesis 2:4 Hebrew Texts and Analysis

In the day God did everything, the fields had nothing... but by the end of that one day mentioned it was.

For the record, I'm not a creationist (6 days or 1 ;)) but just wanted to point out an error you were making in saying that there were several days for creation. It does say that, but it also says it was in one.

Mr. Dave, as many 'evolutionist' theologians will contest, 'yom' does not in itself mean a 24-hour day in the literal sense, but a period of time. However, "evening and morning" are specific in Genesis 1.


Wow...how do you figure?

Jesus is Holy. We are not. The only thing involved is accepting that as truth.
 
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Mr Dave

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Mr. Dave, as many 'evolutionist' theologians will contest, 'yom' does not in itself mean a 24-hour day in the literal sense, but a period of time. However, "evening and morning" are specific in Genesis 1.

Fine, so the first account says it happened in 6 yom, the second in 1 yom. You have chosen one over the other.
Hardly a big win for the creationists.

However, as the post is about the expansion of the universe, not the definition of yom, I will back away slowly now, so the conversation can return to the OP.
 
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ivebeenshown

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No no...how is it that you trust Jesus more than me.

No, it is not that I have more trust than you. I am saying I trust him OVER you.

Fine, so the first account says it happened in 6 yom, the second in 1 yom. You have chosen one over the other.
Hardly a big win for the creationists.

The first account says it was 6 yom, comprised of a morning and evening each. The second just says a yom, with no definitive quality.
 
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