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Ye Olde Libertarian Pub

Discussion in 'American Politics' started by Sojourner1, Feb 18, 2009.

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  1. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    :confused:

    There isn't anything libertarian about Socialism or the Green Party. :doh:
     
  2. FreedByte

    FreedByte .

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    In the context of American libertarianism, you're mostly correct (although the Green Party is civil libertarian). In the context of global and historical libertarianism, you're not so correct. Also, this.
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2014
  3. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    I'd agree with that, more or less. While the word itself has had different meanings in history--as liberal, conservative, socialist, and others have also--at the present and in this country (as you noted) it almost always is understood as referring to the view that people should be free from outside coercion.

    The term "civil libertarian" has almost ceased to be used, I've noticed. However, to the extent that it refers to policies allegedly aimed at promoting social equality, I'd agree that you're right. But that would be "civil libertarianism," not "libertarianism."
     
  4. FreedByte

    FreedByte .

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    That's actually how libertarian socialists view it too, the difference is that they view enforcement of private property as coercion. They generally prefer a kind of "possession" of land based on occupancy+use (which excludes absentee ownership). Wikipedia has more on those views.
     
  5. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    'Libertarian Socialism' is a good example of an oxymoron. :)
     
  6. FreedByte

    FreedByte .

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    Given this response, I'm not sure if you read what I wrote.

    It's only an oxymoron if you are considering state socialism, rather than libertarian socialism. I suggest that you actually learn about something before dismissing it just because you see the word "socialism". Socialism doesn't imply any government involvement.
     
  7. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    These days, no one cares about "Libertarian Socialism," not any more than they care about "Christian Socialism" or "Utopian Socialism." In fact, hardly anyone has any idea what any of them mean. Marxist Socialism has scooped that field and Libertarianism is recognized--whenever the word is used--as standing for the freedom of the individual at the opposite end of the political spectrum.
     
  8. FreedByte

    FreedByte .

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    That's not true. Noam Chomsky and many others use the term to describe their views.

    As I said before, libertarian socialism does not differ in standing for individual freedom, it differs in defining what individual freedom requires.

    I'm not arguing that "libertarianism" means "libertarian socialism", I'm saying you can't dismiss libertarian socialism as a non-libertarian ideology simply because that's not the popular definition of libertarianism.
     
  9. ColoradoGrrrl21

    ColoradoGrrrl21 Newbie

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    Hello fellow libertarians. I'll try to jump into the discussion better at some point, but for now just wanted to say "hello!" and that it's nice to see so many Christian libertarians here. :)
     
  10. FreedByte

    FreedByte .

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    Hi
     
  11. Knee V

    Knee V It's phonetic.

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    Hello there!
     
  12. FreedByte

    FreedByte .

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    Hi and welcome!

    And in response, that seems pretty vague to me, what constitutes treading on someone else?
     
  13. FreedByte

    FreedByte .

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    But how do you determine what rights we have? Isn't it arbitrary?
     
  14. abysmul

    abysmul Board Game Hobbyist

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    ? Are you a libertarian?
     
  15. FreedByte

    FreedByte .

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    In some ways, yes (the civil and social sense).

    If this is only for people who are libertarian across the board, I will happily leave.
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2015
  16. FreedByte

    FreedByte .

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    Yes it rings bells, but it's still arbitrary. What if the government defined it as something else? What if the government said that "treading on" someone doesn't include treading on their property if they aren't putting that property to use or aren't occupying that property?
     
  17. FreedByte

    FreedByte .

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    You might want them to be, but not all governments grant their people those rights.

    Then is it a coincidence that you happen to agree with the US government's definitions? The government does get to define what it means because it is the only enforcer.

    On the contrary, it is a very complicated concept that is being oversimplified. It ignores questions like: to what extent is homesteading a valid way of accumulating property? To what extent can someone legitimately own land without actually using it? etc. These are questions libertarians need to address.

    This is a simple definition with a wide variety of interpretations. Someone on the far-left would view all property ownership as stealing from the people something that cannot be owned. I'm not defending this position, I'm just using it to show that yours is not as simple as it seems.
     
  18. FreedByte

    FreedByte .

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    Alright then, I thought we were discussing a core libertarian principle and its validity, but apparently that thought was not mutual.
     
  19. ChrisBot

    ChrisBot Version 7.0 Beta Supporter

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    This thread was split automatically after 1000 replies and this thread has been automatically closed.
    The new thread automatically created is here: "Ye Olde Libertarian Pub (2)"
     
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