Ye Olde Libertarian Pub

[Sojourner1]

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[ScottBot]

Seeing how the social conservatives and the liberals have their own designated threads, considered "congregational" in nature in that it is intended to be a fellowship thread of sorts, I was wondering if there would be any interest in the largest of the independent political movements out there, libertarianism.

What is a libertarian? Well, in short a libertarian embraces the unfettered social liberty embraced by "liberals and progressives" (i.e., get the government out of my bedroom or house) while demanding that the government return to its Constitutional fiscal roots (i.e., get the government out of my wallet). Granted, its more diverse and complex than this, as there are socially conservative libertarians who embrace a curtailment of abortion, and certainly abhor the fact that it is federally funded. There are "liberal" libertarians who strongly advocate for legalization of marijuana. (Note that these are only two small representative examples).

The official party platform is here: www.lp.org
Some Wikified information here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarianism, although I don't there there are many takers here for the extreme form of libertarianism that seeks to abolish the state (anarchism)

 

[ScottBot]

I can't join the libertarian party because one of the first things in the pledge - or whatever they call the list of things you need to agree with - is that you never support the initiation of the use of force. Military has to always be reactionary. Call me a Bush-doctrine loving fool, but I think some good old preemptive strikes have a lot of merit.

Most of the rest I agree with.

I wasn't necessarily advocating for joining the libertarian party, but rather tryinig to establish a place where people can discuss the principles of libertarianism, which is a political position, rather than a social, moral, religious, or some other position.

Libertarianism describes one's perspective of state power. As such it stands vehemently opposed to Statism. Progressivism and Conservatism(technically speaking) relate to societal change and the rate at which it should occur. Progressives holding that when society needs change, it should be done in a radical and revolutionary way. Conservatives understand that the demands of society change, but that change should be organic and evolutionary. So, one could be a progressive libertarian or a conservative libertarian. By all reasonable measures, the founding fathers were morally conservative, socially progressive libertarians.

Where libertarians draw the line is the acceptable level of state control and power. The ultimate example of libertarian societies are the Lakota and Iroquois Confederacies (before Lincoln's war against native America).

 

[ScottBot]

How accurate would it be to accuse libertarians of being conservatives in all but name, since they will never protect social liberties when there are still economic issues they want to adress? That they'll pretty much unfailingly vote for whoever promises them the most tax cuts and to hell with such concerns as civil rights?

That is fundamentally untrue. Libertarians typically ally themselves with conservatives (in America) because most American conservatives are devoted, at least in principle, to small government. The basic axiom of libertarianism is "Get the government out of my bedroom (civil liberties) and out of my wallet (economic freedom)". In fact the ultimate libertarian society would have no government because people would have not only the freedom to live their lives as they wish, but also tempered by the dictates of moral responsibility to do no harm to one's fellow citizen. Utopian of course, but what political philosophy doesn't have the perfect society as its ideal goal?

 

[MerchantofMenace]

Do you folks like the fact that the top law enforcement official in the United States is running around giving speeches because he doesn't like how folks live live their private lives and spend their free time?

 

[ScottBot]

what took ya so long?

I got tired of being pushed into a box with Democrats or Republicans, depending on the situation.

 

[ScottBot]

Do you folks like the fact that the top law enforcement official in the United States is running around giving speeches because he doesn't like how folks live live their private lives and spend their free time?

Umm, more info? Not sure who or what your referring to.

 

[MerchantofMenace]

Umm, more info? Not sure who or what your referring to.

Eric Holder just gave a speech where he complained about how people spend their private time.

That's bad isn't it?

 

[ScottBot]

Eric Holder just gave a speech where he complained about how people spend their private time.

That's bad isn't it?

The guy who processed the pardon for Guy Ritchie wants to lecture me on how I live or spend my time. He can take a short walk on a long pier for all I care.

To answer your question, yes, that's bad. I don't need the government telling me how to live my life or spend my time or money.

 

[MerchantofMenace]

The guy who processed the pardon for Guy Ritchie wants to lecture me on how I live or spend my time. He can take a short walk on a long pier for all I care.

To answer your question, yes, that's bad. I don't need the government telling me how to live my life or spend my time or money.

I like you guys already.

 

[fivepointTULIP]

ooh ooh, count me in!

 

[ScottBot]

ooh ooh, count me in!

You know, the thing I love about Libertarianism is that people of all stripes can come together and agree on most of it, because there really are no "theological" underpinings to being libertarian in principle. It supports all creeds, yet caters to none. Atheistic libertarians can fight side by side with Catholic (even Catholics and Calvinists can peacefully work together ) libertarians and not point fingers at each other. Its awesome.

 

[MerchantofMenace]

I'm more of a minarchist.

 

[ScottBot]

I'm more of a minarchist.

Ya, me too.

 

[Anoetos]

Question:

I would describe myself as a social libertarian who has moved to the left on fiscal issues, esp. jobs and the complete failure of trickle-down neo-con BS.

Can I participate here or no?

 

[ScottBot]

Question:

I would describe myself as a social libertarian who has moved to the left on fiscal issues, esp. jobs and the complete failure of trickle-down neo-con BS.

Can I participate here or no?

On the social issues, sure, on the fiscal issues, one of the cornerstones of libertarianism is minimal government (minarchism). It isn't a "neo-con" thing, because libertarians don't espouse large standing armies (because large, standing armies can be used by the government to enforse policy. We also don't endorse social entitlement programs, believing that charities are much better suited for taking care of social problems than government. Essentially, it holds the premise elucidated by Jefferson, "A government that is big enough to give you everything you want is also big enough to take everything you have."

 

[oldbetang]

Question:

I would describe myself as a social libertarian who has moved to the left on fiscal issues, esp. jobs and the complete failure of trickle-down neo-con BS.

Can I participate here or no?

Left on fiscal issues means bigger government and less individual liberty. Forced wealth redistribution is not an idea that matches up well with libertarianism.

 

[ScottBot]

Left on fiscal issues means bigger government and less individual liberty. Forced wealth redistribution is not an idea that matches up well with libertarianism.

That and "constitutional" libertarians, such as myself, understand that the Constitution promises the pursuit of happiness, not the guarantee of it. A free market economy with a minarchist government brings out the best in a morally grounded society. It demands people to take risks and compete. Competition makes the good, great. Socialism and the removal of competition does the reverse, it makes the great good and equally distributes misery.

 

[Barabas]

Well this is the place for me then.
When I was younger I voted more left, as I grew in knowledge and experience I moved more to the right.

Now I find myself solidly Libertarian.
This current American administration, with it's cult-of-personality, power grabs, lunatic spending, massive build up of government is disgusting.
That's why I enjoy pokin' at the Dems right now.
Blind faith in some Obamessiah is frightening in it's implications.
Waiting for the "shave-tattoo-exterminate" portion of policy.

 

[Izdaari Eristikon]

We have Catholic and Calvinist libertarians, now let's add a Pentecostal libertarian to the mix.

Member of the Libertarian Party since 1972, the first year I could vote, the year John Hospers and Tonie Nathan were the LP candidates.

I'm probably more of a Goldwater conservative than a real libertarian, but OTOH Goldwater was more a libertarian than a conservative anyway, and was the closest thing to a real libertarian nominee the Republicans had since Calvin Coolidge.