Would you still believe in God if...

Tamara224

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Let me ask this. Would you still believe in God if the Bible was proven to be edited severely? Would that make a difference of whether or not you believe in God?


Like others have said, I know that the Bible is not without its flaws. There are mistakes in editing, copying, translation, and tansliteration. There is abundant evidence that men (not God) chose which books would be included and which would be excluded. There is evidence that those men who made those choices were not without bias in doing so.

I believe Scripture is what Scripture says it is: inspired by God and profitable/useful for instruction and doctrine and training in righteousness. It is not the fourth person of the Trinity, thus proof of its being imperfect doesn't shake my faith in God.

Furthermore, I take the (heretical, according to some) position that God still speaks to people today the same way he spoke to the people we learn about in the Bible. I believe God still inspires people with His words - that's what prophecy is, God giving His word through a human agent - whether it be in writing or orally.
 
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Aino

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Like others have said, I know that the Bible is not without its flaws. There are mistakes in editing, copying, translation, and tansliteration. There is abundant evidence that men (not God) chose which books would be included and which would be excluded. There is evidence that those men who made those choices were not without bias in doing so.

I believe Scripture is what Scripture says it is: inspired by God and profitable/useful for instruction and doctrine and training in righteousness. It is not the fourth person of the Trinity, thus proof of its being imperfect doesn't shake my faith in God.

Furthermore, I take the (heretical, according to some) position that God still speaks to people today the same way he spoke to the people we learn about in the Bible. I believe God still inspires people with His words - that's what prophecy is, God giving His word through a human agent - whether it be in writing or orally.

I guess it doesn't make much sense repeating the stuff you've said since I agree so much. God has more ways of making himself known then the Bible...
 
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Blank123

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It's not just Paul saying it. He was an apostle, which in itself means one who is sent with the authority of the sender, and before Jesus left he said that he would send his spirit to enable his apostles to remember his teaching, and understand new teaching.


yup. not to mention if we allow that it was merely his pride talking and saying that he was speaking for Christ, then we kinda have to throw out all of his epistles because we couldn't trust another word he said.

It'd also be an odd choice for Christ to call him as an apostle if He knew he was going to mess up his ministry and credibility with his pride.
 
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One last thought - IMHO if your entire belief is based on a book, then your faith is in the book, not in God.

What I'm asking though is this: If the book that is supposed to talk about God and his interactions with people is made up or edited to the point where certain events are painted as "God did it" moments, how can you have faith in the Judeo/Christian god if we're putting words in his mouth? To me, that seems pretty freakin important.

I do know what you guys are saying though, a book is a book, albeit the Bible is one that is God inspired. I have seen miracles happen and have even had one happen to me. I believe there is a god, its just a matter of "why this god?" that I'm dealing with. :confused:
 
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Paulie079

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Its a lot of things.
Why does God reveal himself to very few people?

Actually, Christianity is, at its core, a revealed religion. The Bible is God's revelation of Himself to the world. Besides the Bible, though, God reveals Himself in a lot of different ways to people. I think if we were to seek Him more, we would discover that.

How can we trust in God and Jesus's character if the Bible has been edited so much?

The Bible has been edited but not in ways that change the message of the book. When you talk about the original languages that the Bible was written in, there are thousands of manuscript copies (the Dead Sea Scrolls being the most noteable) that affirm that the books that make up the Bible as we know it today do not have content that has been altered.

The second thing to note is that any time you're translating something from one language to another, you do lose some of the original meaning behind the text. Figures of speech and expressions that were used in those days wouldn't show up in the same way when you translate Greek, Hebrew, or Aramaic into Latin or English. That's why there is a lot of value in looking into the original languages because you'll find out things that are being said in the text that you never would have known about otherwise.

Also, I would just mention that ancient Hebrew was very tricky to translate. That language is the equivalent of writing out something in English that has no punctuation and no capital letters, so there was a great degree of care that went into translating a language that could communicate totally different things if you don't separate out the characters in the right way. (Ex. 'God is nowhere' vs. 'God is now here')

For all of these reasons, there are many churches out there that will take one of two stances...either 1) The Bible is true and infallible in the sense that it perfectly points the reader towards Jesus Christ, or 2) The Bible was true and infallible in its original writings. The errors that are seen today are a result of faulty translation.

What about all the other religions that are similar to Judaism/Christianity or that have similar origins/beliefs? Zoroastrianism (the BIGGEST issue for me regarding Christianity with its origins.) and Sumerian (particularly the bit about the great flood) are some examples.

Whenever you start comparing Christianity to other religions, your starting point should be Jesus Christ. When you look at Christianity with Jesus Christ at the forefront, you see that, while the stories/teachings/moral repercussions might be similar to that of other religions, Christianity's basic claims are unique in comparison to every other religion.

Why do we have so many different interpretations of who "is saved and who isn't?"

Within the scope of orthodox Christianity, all Christians believe the same basic thing--that salvation only comes through trusting in Jesus Christ.

Is it by grace or by works?

Ephesians 2:8-9 answers this pretty flat out..."For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--not by works so that no one can boast." Now, in James it says that when a person has a relationship with God and is experiencing His love, works are going to be an outflow of that. When you have been the recipient of grace, knowing that you don't deserve what you got, the natural reaction is to want that for others and to honor the person that extended that grace to you, which in this case would be God. But just know that we, as Christians, obey God not just because we are supposed to, but because He loves us. That's what people mean when they say that Christianity is a relationship, not a religion. 'Religion' in this sense means that I obey God, therefore I'm loved and accepted by Him. 'Relationship,' though, means that I'm loved and accepted by God, therefore I obey Him.

Do i have to be baptised or do i not?

This is something that not all denominations agree on. I would say that nearly all denominations would agree that you should be baptised, because it is a public means of declaring to the church body around you that you have received the grace that God has offered you and the fact that you are now in relationship with Him and are free from sin. The majority of churches look at baptism as simply that--an outward demonstration of an inward act of God's grace. You will find churches here and there, though, that say that you must be baptized in order to be saved. I, and the majority of people, would say that that isn't true. But one thing that everyone agrees on is that you, at least, should be baptized if you're a believer :)

Do I have to say a certain prayer or will my faith alone compensate?

In the end, God ultimately looks at your heart towards Him. Generally, though, you demonstrate your heart decision to accept Jesus Christ into your life through praying to God and repenting of your sin to Him. Prayer is our way of talking with God and so the best way to communicate your heart decision to Him is through prayer :)

Do i have to dance on my right foot or my left foot?

Haha, this just reminded me of something funny. I grew up Nazarene (just another denomination) and one thing devout Nazarenes do not do is dance (although this has been changing quite a bit over the past 20ish years). I had a pastor once, though, that grew up break dancing and so he would always poke fun at that and say that you just had to keep on foot on the floor at a time.

I've caught myself thinking I'd rather just go to hell if i had to jump through so many obscure and seemingly trite hoops, because I'm bound to guess wrong anyways. Does anyone know??? Does it matter what I do or how I do it???

I think this verse is pretty clear about the basics..."If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness." 1 John 1:9

Not to mention there are some historical discrepancies in the Bible. Take Joshua and the wall of Jericho for an example. According to Joshua, the Israelites marched around the wall and it came tumbling down. Archeologists are saying that the walls of Jericho were rebuilt and taken down several times before Joshua came.......about 300-1000 years before he did.

I haven't heard much about this but I guess it doesn't affect me too much. Where did you hear about that?

What I'm asking though is this: If the book that is supposed to talk about God and his interactions with people is made up or edited to the point where certain events are painted as "God did it" moments, how can you have faith in the Judeo/Christian god if we're putting words in his mouth? To me, that seems pretty freakin important.

I do know what you guys are saying though, a book is a book, albeit the Bible is one that is God inspired. I have seen miracles happen and have even had one happen to me. I believe there is a god, its just a matter of "why this god?" that I'm dealing with. :confused:

I know I had mentioned this up above, but I think the biggest issue to consider when looking at Christianity vs. other religions is the person of Jesus Christ.

Hey, if you have other questions or whatever, I would love to answer them if you need. I've always been up for looking into answers to the hard questions.
 
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Balugon

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What I'm asking though is this: If the book that is supposed to talk about God and his interactions with people is made up or edited to the point where certain events are painted as "God did it" moments, how can you have faith in the Judeo/Christian god if we're putting words in his mouth? To me, that seems pretty freakin important.

I do know what you guys are saying though, a book is a book, albeit the Bible is one that is God inspired. I have seen miracles happen and have even had one happen to me. I believe there is a god, its just a matter of "why this god?" that I'm dealing with. :confused:

I think that there is a lot of accuracy and useful information in the Bible. Do not lie, do not steal, do not commit adultery- all these things have verifiable negative effects on society. And it seems apparent that love is the biggest thing missing in society, as everyone seems to be trying to find ways to get people to value them. People wouldn't be starving in other countries if celebrities (and others) weren't being paid millions of dollars so they could buy expensive cars and dresses. Though I will say, the church has been making a lot of dumb mistakes too, and a lot of people who think they are God's spokesmen have actually been damaging the world with religious agendas that aren't God's agenda- the Catholic church saying that birth control is/was evil would be one of those things. And Christians and "Christians" have made up a lot of wrong theological beliefs that God doesn't believe, and we can't base our interaction and beliefs about God around them. We have to take God at his own merits.

If you meant "Why this, God?" As in, why am I suffering in this way right now? I would have to say you can point your finger at your parents, grandparents, and the rest of society. People are the reason society sucks right now. People are the reason America is a trillion dollars in debt right now. People are often the ones giving us the hard day, when God called people to be reflections of Heaven, images of God himself (walking in love and caring, not necessarily being little robot clones of God). If Heaven isn't on earth, it's our fault. God isn't going to throw out mankind's free will in order to have a perfect society. But he does help, and he does work on changing things when people cry out to him. It doesn't always work out the way we or he would like (he desires that nobody have to live in hell or a hell), but he does work to see our lives made better.

If you meant "Why this god?" As in, why can't the god we talk about be a different god? Then I would have to say it's because there is only one God, and the God of the Bible is it. If you understood who he is, and how awesome and loving he is, and how much effort he is constantly putting forth to help and save people (limited by us), you wouldn't ask about another god, because you would realize no one compares to God.

"30 I looked for someone among them who would build up the wall and stand before me in the gap on behalf of the land so I would not have to destroy it, but I found no one." Ezekiel 22:30

"10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full." John 10:10
 
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.Mikha'el.

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It's not just Paul saying it. He was an apostle, which in itself means one who is sent with the authority of the sender, and before Jesus left he said that he would send his spirit to enable his apostles to remember his teaching, and understand new teaching.
Here's where your argument falls flat:

Mark 3:14-15

He appointed twelve[a] that they might be with him and that he might send them out to preach 15 and to have authority to drive out demons.

There's nothing in this that says the apostles always taught with divine authroity all of the time. They were authorized to preach and drive out demons, but none of this means that the words they spoke were always going to be of divine authority.
 
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Balugon

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Here's where your argument falls flat:

Mark 3:14-15

He appointed twelve[a] that they might be with him and that he might send them out to preach 15 and to have authority to drive out demons.

There's nothing in this that says the apostles always taught with divine authroity all of the time. They were authorized to preach and drive out demons, but none of this means that the words they spoke were always going to be of divine authority.

The OP would probably appreciate it if you took the side discussion to PM's instead of in his thread.
 
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EyesOfKohl

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What about all the other religions that are similar to Judaism/Christianity or that have similar origins/beliefs? Zoroastrianism (the BIGGEST issue for me regarding Christianity with its origins.) and Sumerian (particularly the bit about the great flood) are some examples.

What is your issue with Zoroastrianism?

Maybe you'd like to be more specific?

I've seen so many people that read brief details that sound similiar and then make up their mind about it. You have to actually go searching and read everything for yourself.

Have you read both the Bible and the Zend Avesta (Book of Zoroaster)?

If not, I'd recommend you read them. You could read the Zend Avesta here in 3 parts.

The Zend Avesta, Part I (SBE04) Index

Once you read it, you'll see there are ALOT of major differences.

As for the flood, it hasn't only been recorded in Judaism and Sumerian history, but also by the Inca in the Peru mountains. They've found sea levels and fossils that high in the mountains from the flood. It's not suprising that alot of nations have the flood recorded in their history!

Whether or not you have scripture, you still have a conscience. You still know what is right and what isn't, because you'll feel guilty when you do wrong. Now, when you read the teachings of our Mashiah Yeshua (Jesus), you will only find good. So, whether or not you follow him, you'll still know good and bad.

As a Messianic, I accept the gospel of Matthew to be the most authentic. Since it was the only one to be written in the original language. You must remember that the Bible also contains history, it was written by men. The words through the Prophet's are that which is sacred. I would recommend you read this about Prophecy in the Bible.

[Walid] Evidence from Bible Prophecy
 
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shinkou

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I think that the Bible is important to being Christian. I believe the Bible is the word of God. I believe that the Bible teaches us about God and his way. I believe it teaches us how to follow God.

I also believe that the Bible is not perfect. I am sure that people changed some things. I am sure that people made some mistakes about translating the bible. I am sure it is similar to when I try to translate the meaning about what people say in here. I even think some things the people that wrote the Bible are also wrong about it. At that time I am sure they cannot understand everything. Then they write about something a little differently than actually it is. But I think they are mostly right about their understanding.

I think the basic message of the Bible is true and accurate. Maybe all the facts are not right, but I think most important things are.

Finally, I know that God is real because I have had personal experience with him. I know my belief is true because I have seen God in my life many times. That is the most important thing. If Jesus is not really God, and some other god is exsisting instead of him, then why does my prayer to Jesus become answered? I think the other god would not want to answer the prayer that is to some other than them.
 
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liesje

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Here's where your argument falls flat:

Mark 3:14-15

He appointed twelve[a] that they might be with him and that he might send them out to preach 15 and to have authority to drive out demons.

There's nothing in this that says the apostles always taught with divine authroity all of the time. They were authorized to preach and drive out demons, but none of this means that the words they spoke were always going to be of divine authority.

It doesn't fall flat there, but like Balugon said, we're derailing.
 
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