Would you say that Orthodoxy is focused on the bad stuff?

AureateDawn

Love & Peace
May 2, 2006
3,774
145
32
Knoxville, TN
✟12,273.00
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Single
I can't quite conjure the correct wording for the title, my apologies.

Would you say, however, that Orthodoxy focused on negative aspects of yourself? In Orthodox thought, yes, we are all sinners (I the chief of them), fall short of the glory of God, and God is pure love and bliss. I understand this.

But is the focus on the sin and how "bad" we are overdone? In Orthodoxy, it's always mercy this, sin that, I'm so bad and I constantly suck and I always fail. But where's the happy? As of late, I have focused on positive thinking, self love, etc. and have become a much happier person than I have been before. I accomplish more, I feel better, and I find worth in myself. By focusing on what I do right, and when I do not focus on the bad or negative, the bad/negative fades away. So I feel like Orthodoxy would be a step back from this, due to such strong focus on sin and falling short.

Again, I feel like I am falling terribly short in describing what I'm inquiring about. I hope it's clear enough for answers and personal thoughts on the matter, though. Suppose I could boil it down to - why focus on all the bad you do as an Orthodox Christian, as opposed to focusing on the positives and let the bad fade away as the focus is off of it?
 

MariaRegina

Well-Known Member
Jun 26, 2003
53,258
14,159
Visit site
✟115,460.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
We are sinners, that is true, but our focus should be on our Lord, not ourselves.
As we repeat the Jesus Prayer, the peace of Jesus floods our souls and helps us to avoid sin and win the race.

Otherwise, we are engaged in a self-pity party sponsored by Satan and his hosts, and that leads to depression, despair, and death.
 
Upvote 0

tapi

Regular Member
Apr 19, 2010
1,497
498
Stockholm
✟147,794.00
Country
Sweden
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Private
Maria put it well. The holy elders often warn us that repentance that doensn't contain hope and trust in our Lord Jesus Christ's love and healing, is outright demonic.

Even as we acknowledge our weaknessess, failings and shortcomings, and that we walk away from God many times in our lives, we can always draw strenght from God's inexhaustable love towards us that radiates our very being, and gives us the strenght and means to walk our Christian path as designated by the Lord, and to fully enter every day in His joy.
 
Upvote 0

Cappadocious

Well-Known Member
Sep 29, 2012
3,885
860
✟30,661.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
In Orthodoxy, it's always mercy this
Mercy doesn't mean, "please don't hurt me even though I'm a piece of crap." Eleos/Hesed means love and all the gifts we receive from God even before we ask for them, and all the things that God is already doing for us, even giving us himself.

Read Psalm 135/6 to see what is attributed to God's mercy.
 
Upvote 0

AureateDawn

Love & Peace
May 2, 2006
3,774
145
32
Knoxville, TN
✟12,273.00
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Single
Mercy doesn't mean, "please don't hurt me even though I'm a piece of crap." Eleos/Hesed means love and all the gifts we receive from God even before we ask for them, and all the things that God is already doing for us, even giving us himself.

Read Psalm 135/6 to see what is attributed to God's mercy.

Though I was once Orthodox, I never knew this. How lovely. Thanks for the enlightenment. :)
 
Upvote 0

gzt

The age of the Earth is 4.54 ± 0.07 billion years
Jul 14, 2004
10,592
1,863
Abolish ICE
Visit site
✟116,222.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Private
I think Orthodoxy has a lot of tools in the box and is capable of giving out whatever medicine is most needed for the soul. It's very easy to find, and a lot of people perhaps inappropriately gravitate toward, the more "negative" aspects.
 
Upvote 0

InnerPhyre

Well-Known Member
Nov 13, 2003
14,573
1,470
✟71,967.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
We should think of "mercy" in a sense of healing more than freeing us from punishment for our crimes. Mercy in Greek is ἔλεος, which has the same root as "oil" and has a healing connotation to it.

We should think of God's mercy as the Good Samaritan taking the broken man off the street and making him whole again, not the judge letting us off with a warning.

We focus on the negative aspects of ourselves in the same way that you would focus on cleaning the spray paint off of the Mona Lisa that has just been vandalized in the middle of the Louvre. We are masterpieces created in God's image and likeness, so we must do all that we can to allow God to heal us and remove from us everything that doesn't belong.

The feeling that is often described in relation to this understanding is "Joyful sorrow," which is hard to describe unless you experience it, but it is a strange paradoxical mix of knowing that you have fallen short of what you have been called to be and have failed to show love to those around you, while still understanding that you are a creature of infinite value in God's eyes who is loved in a way that we can never even begin to comprehend because the greatest of human love falls woefully short of God's love.
 
Upvote 0

Fotina

Regular Member
Sep 17, 2004
687
78
✟1,217.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Kyrie Eleison, Lord Have Mercy -Anthony M. Coniaris
The gateway to God's mercy is repentance. That is why St. John of Kronstadt said, "Let us hasten to call forth His mercy by repentance and tears."

One of the most repeated words in the liturgy is the prayer Kyrie Eleison, Lord, have mercy. It is repeated again and again, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, a hundred times.

THE MEANING OF KYRIE ELEISON

St. Symeon of Thessaloniki writes about the Kyrie Eleison prayer: " 'Have mercy upon us, O God, according to your great mercy, we beseech you ... ' This expression is appropriate, since we should not ask for anything except for mercy, as we have neither boldness nor access to offer anything as our own ...So as sinners and condemned through sin we cannot, nor dare not, say anything to our Loving Master except 'have mercy.' "

The excellent book "Orthodox Worship" describes the meaning of the word mercy as follows:

"The word mercy in English is the translation of the Greek word eleos. This word has the same ultimate root as the old Greek word for oil, or more precisely, olive oil; a substance which was used extensively as a soothing agent for bruises and minor wounds. The oil was poured onto the wound and gently massaged in, thus soothing, comforting and making whole the injured part. The Hebrew word which is also translated as eleos and mercy is hesed, and means steadfast love. The Greek words for 'Lord, have mercy,' are 'Kyrie, eleison' that is to say, 'Lord, soothe me, comfort me, take away my pain, show me your steadfast love.' Thus mercy does not refer so much to justice or acquittal a very Western interpretation but to the infinite loving-kindness of God, and his compassion for his suffering children! It is in this sense that we pray 'Lord, have mercy,' with great frequency throughout the Divine Liturgy."*
 
Upvote 0

ArmyMatt

Regular Member
Supporter
Jan 26, 2007
41,470
20,026
41
Earth
✟1,456,009.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
I think the problem is that nowadays, no one wants to hear about sin at all. so any mention of being sinful for many is an automatic write off. well, you don't get better unless you confront the disease. we just don't want to anymore. we want the Joel Osteen gospel.

but I would throw out that almost every prayer reminds us that God is "a good God who lovest mankind."
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Monica child of God 1

strives to live eschatologically
Feb 4, 2005
5,796
716
47
✟9,473.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Orthodoxy is meant to guide us toward thinking of God and others more than ourselves. We may be sinners, but we are not taught to dwell in the abyss of self loathing. We are taught to raise our thoughts to higher things, to the love of God, the saints, service to our fellow humans, etc. If you're spending all day thinking about how crappy you are, you're doing it wrong.


Philippians 4:8--

"Finally, brothers and sisters, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."

Colossians 3:1-4--

"Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things."

M.
 
Upvote 0

mark46

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jan 29, 2010
20,042
4,720
✟830,815.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
:thumbsup:

We should think of "mercy" in a sense of healing more than freeing us from punishment for our crimes. Mercy in Greek is ἔλεος, which has the same root as "oil" and has a healing connotation to it.

We should think of God's mercy as the Good Samaritan taking the broken man off the street and making him whole again, not the judge letting us off with a warning.
 
Upvote 0
Oct 15, 2008
19,375
7,272
Central California
✟274,069.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
While I ABSOLUTELY LOVE the medicinal hospital for sinners aspect of Orthodoxy bigtime, we mustn't forget the "dread judgment seat of Chist" that we hear about each weekend at Divine Liturgy. The Fathers didn't look at God as Winnie the Pooh. We will be held accountable for our behavior and our staying in the race, so to speak. I think if we shy away from God's judgment and our sins and just focus on the healing warm aspects of the medicinal side, we can easily forget God's dread sovereign judgment. The Bible admonishes us to fear the Lord and that that is the beginning of wisdom. Orthodoxy is tough, bottom line. It's a balance.
 
Upvote 0

mark46

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jan 29, 2010
20,042
4,720
✟830,815.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
Is it not through accepting the healing that we are more conformed to Jesus each day, and are then able to act as the hands and feet of Jesus in this world?

I think it critical to leave the penal model to those in the West who still accept it.

Yes, it is tough to be the followers of Jesus. As a priest put on his tombstone "Jesus promises us that in following him our life will have meaning and that we will live forever. If you get a better offer, take it." There is no better offer. But who ever promised us that this life would be easy (or fair)?

While I ABSOLUTELY LOVE the medicinal hospital for sinners aspect of Orthodoxy bigtime, we mustn't forget the "dread judgment seat of Chist" that we hear about each weekend at Divine Liturgy. The Fathers didn't look at God as Winnie the Pooh. We will be held accountable for our behavior and our staying in the race, so to speak. I think if we shy away from God's judgment and our sins and just focus on the healing warm aspects of the medicinal side, we can easily forget God's dread sovereign judgment. The Bible admonishes us to fear the Lord and that that is the beginning of wisdom. Orthodoxy is tough, bottom line. It's a balance.
 
Upvote 0
Oct 15, 2008
19,375
7,272
Central California
✟274,069.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I thought you were Anglican, Mark? And I'm puzzled why I have a Catholic telling an Orthodox Christian how to properly walk with Christ in an Orthodox forum...but I digress. :)

No one said anything about penalties, but I mentioned the "dread judgment seat of Christ" in the liturgy. It is a factor, Mark, or we wouldn't be praying it each Sunday morning.



Is it not through accepting the healing that we are more conformed to Jesus each day, and are then able to act as the hands and feet of Jesus in this world?

I think it critical to leave the penal model to those in the West who still accept it.

Yes, it is tough to be the followers of Jesus. As a priest put on his tombstone "Jesus promises us that in following him our life will have meaning and that we will live forever. If you get a better offer, take it." There is no better offer. But who ever promised us that this life would be easy (or fair)?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

desertfathersincense

Insignificant Incense Maker
Feb 15, 2013
39
7
Visit site
✟7,689.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Private
I can't quite conjure the correct wording for the title, my apologies.

Would you say, however, that Orthodoxy focused on negative aspects of yourself? In Orthodox thought, yes, we are all sinners (I the chief of them), fall short of the glory of God, and God is pure love and bliss. I understand this.

But is the focus on the sin and how "bad" we are overdone? In Orthodoxy, it's always mercy this, sin that, I'm so bad and I constantly suck and I always fail. But where's the happy? As of late, I have focused on positive thinking, self love, etc. and have become a much happier person than I have been before. I accomplish more, I feel better, and I find worth in myself. By focusing on what I do right, and when I do not focus on the bad or negative, the bad/negative fades away. So I feel like Orthodoxy would be a step back from this, due to such strong focus on sin and falling short.

Again, I feel like I am falling terribly short in describing what I'm inquiring about. I hope it's clear enough for answers and personal thoughts on the matter, though. Suppose I could boil it down to - why focus on all the bad you do as an Orthodox Christian, as opposed to focusing on the positives and let the bad fade away as the focus is off of it?

forgive me, and I am only guessing, but are you in a predominant CONVERT parish? If so, then I would say your concerns are probably spot on. Covertitis affects many convert priests as well as parishioners. You have not asked for advice, but mine is, whether asked for or not: run. Run to the nearest "cradle" parish and do not look back.

Unfortunately many converts and convert priests bring their prejudices and former "theology" with them. Such baggage is hard to shed. It takes a long time. You are not required to spend that time with them.

Please, if you can, find another parish where such things are not an issue. Such is not Orthodoxy, but rather Protestant theology creeping in the back door, if you will.

God bless you.
 
Upvote 0

desertfathersincense

Insignificant Incense Maker
Feb 15, 2013
39
7
Visit site
✟7,689.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Private
I thought you were Anglican, Mark? And I'm puzzled why I have a Catholic telling an Orthodox Christian how to properly walk with Christ in an Orthodox forum...but I digress. :)

No one said anything about penalties, but I mentioned the "dread judgment seat of Christ" in the liturgy. It is a factor, Mark, or we wouldn't be praying it each Sunday morning.


Snarky much?

I don't care if I take a beating for this or not. Our Catholic brother is correct and your comment is out of line. (not to mention FAR from the Orthodox humility that is our yardstick).

For the original person who asked the question: what you are describing is a a parish over-run by converts from Protestantism. I have been where you are. And the "flip side" is the "ethnic/cradle parish" that is not only far more forgiving, but also far more "Orthodox".

if you are in a Russian parish that is cradle and you are hearing this stuff, that doesn't surprise me either. Seek out an Antiochian or other "ethnic" parish where the priest understands what you are trying to say. I understood you very well. Just print out your post and hand it to him. If he has a brain, he will understand it.

You are right, whether you know it now or not, and ignore people here who are trying to bash you on the head with your so-called "depravity". Such people are infected with the disease of Calvinism and you are not required to suffer that nonsense.

God bless you. Again.
 
Upvote 0
Oct 15, 2008
19,375
7,272
Central California
✟274,069.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I love it when snarky people jump on people for being snarky and then proceed to snarkily judge them. Good times...

Thanks for the character judgment, dfi. Happy Lent
Snarky much?

I don't care if I take a beating for this or not. Our Catholic brother is correct and your comment is out of line. (not to mention FAR from the Orthodox humility that is our yardstick).

For the original person who asked the question: what you are describing is a a parish over-run by converts from Protestantism. I have been where you are. And the "flip side" is the "ethnic/cradle parish" that is not only far more forgiving, but also far more "Orthodox".

if you are in a Russian parish that is cradle and you are hearing this stuff, that doesn't surprise me either. Seek out an Antiochian or other "ethnic" parish where the priest understands what you are trying to say. I understood you very well. Just print out your post and hand it to him. If he has a brain, he will understand it.

You are right, whether you know it now or not, and ignore people here who are trying to bash you on the head with your so-called "depravity". Such people are infected with the disease of Calvinism and you are not required to suffer that nonsense.

God bless you. Again.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Anhelyna

Handmaid of God
CF Senior Ambassador
Supporter
Nov 29, 2005
58,173
16,478
Glasgow , Scotland
✟1,288,670.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Private
Oh Guys and Gals

It's easy to see we are all in the Great Fast now :(

I've just done a HUGE rant to my Godpapa - and got a virtual hug from him - and both of us know that we can't do anything about the subject of my Rant - it's that person down there yanking all our buttons .

Let's focus on that lies ahead - the Feast of all Feasts

Lord Jesus Christ , Son of God , have mercy on me a sinner
 
Upvote 0