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WooHoo Submission

Discussion in 'Married Couples' started by JaneFW, Aug 18, 2011.

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  1. McScribe

    McScribe Me

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    Biblical.
     
  2. Psalm63

    Psalm63 New Member

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    Yep, we used to be heavy into hierarchical marriage, but I (unilaterally) dumped that and he doesn't get anywhere when he attempts to use the trump card (which he still whips out on occasion). OTH, he sometimes teases me that "we can take turns being on top". :holy:
     
  3. Psalm63

    Psalm63 New Member

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    Then, I agree. Sometimes we forget the forest to stare at a tree.

    If people conformed their lives to "the law of love" Romans 13:10, Galatians 5:14 there would be no abuse and no unfaithfulness.

    "thy kingdom come, ON EARTH, as it is in heaven!"
     
  4. McScribe

    McScribe Me

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    I think that the words sometimes offend. It's not unreasonable in my opinion for those who have been subject to abuses to want a fresh reassurance that their abuse was not acceptable. It is also not unreasonable for those who do not advocate systems that tolerate abuse to ask that their insistence upon that be accepted.
     
  5. Athene

    Athene Grammatically incorrect Supporter

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    Liberating from what?
     
  6. McScribe

    McScribe Me

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    Sin: hatred, anger, fear, jealousy, greed...sin and the fruits of sin.
     
    Chaplain David likes this.
  7. Johnnz

    Johnnz Senior Veteran Supporter

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    My response to that questions (not on behalf of McScribe!) is a "No".

    From the third century we can see developments in the church that persisted for centuries. There were three major influences that happened over time:
    a) Pressure, eventually successful, to have Rome replace Jerusalem, as the ecclesiastical centre of the church;
    b) The development of a male, and, a bit later, a celibate professional leadership and structure;
    c) With b) a strong patriarchal hold took over the church.

    All these were historical developments, which many now see as unwarranted and not truly biblical.

    For many centuries a church dominated society accepted a divine order - God, church, king - as the way our world was to operate. Some aspects of that teaching are very much alive and advocated within some Protestant churches. I am thankful for the scholarly re-evaluations that have taken place form men and women committed to Jesus Christ and the integrity of the Scriptures well understood.

    John
    NZ
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2011
  8. Psalm63

    Psalm63 New Member

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    Correct me if I am wrong but the way that I recall you speaking of a husband's "spiritual leadership" in a marriage-- that its about him "going to the cross" first, demonstrating Christlikeness, etc...- I really don't have an argument with that. That sounds like a pretty biblical approach to me.

    Despite my respect for you and how you express yourself and state your position, McScribe, I still think any "system" which reserves to the male "final decision making authority" in a marriage is inherently disrespectful to the wife. IMO its high time for men who profess to follow Christ to let go of their sense of entitlement to make "final decisions" which are against the will of another adult human being.

    Sorry if this offends you, but I lived under this teaching for 22 years and I feel extremely strongly about this. I don't want my daughters and granddaughters growing up in a church that teaches it nor marrying men who believe and practice it.
     
  9. McScribe

    McScribe Me

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    That's what I mean by language. I don't mean final decision making, or final authority, and while there is talk of such I do not see that I or others here have in the majority proposed this.
     
  10. chaz345

    chaz345 New Member

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    Yes, any talk of such things is coming only from those who so strongly object to submission. IOW they are arguing against something that no one here is supporting. And while I get that such things exist, I still don't see the point in ONLY discussing that, especially when,as has been said, it's not what we're suggesting in the first place.
     
  11. chaz345

    chaz345 New Member

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    Two things on this. One, as has been said by C2W and I thikg Faith Prevails, it's not against their will. And second, as professing believers, shouldn't both the wife and husband be seeking and following God's will and not their own? If the husband is truly seeking and following God's will, then there is no problem right? If the wife is truly seeking God's will then it will align with what the husband says should be done if he is doing likewise. But then again, from your worldview that even the best man is inherently more likely to ignore God's will and follow his own than the wife is, your stance on this makes perfect sense.
     
  12. Created2Write

    Created2Write His Pink Princess

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    :clap::clap::clap:
     
  13. Johnnz

    Johnnz Senior Veteran Supporter

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  14. beckyjustbecky

    beckyjustbecky Can't wait to meet our baby on April7th 2012

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    I'm only joining now!! I am so bad at using forums, so please forgive me!

    Does our Church teach on it?
    Yes, quite often. I have to say though about my Church, I have visited many all over the world and without being biased I do believe that there are very few teachers of the word that teach the uncomprimised word of God today. A lot of the churched I visited almost apologise for what the Bible says about certain topics that new Christians may find offensive or confusing. At our Church we have a "lighter" topic on a Sunday morning, but we also have Church on Sunday evening and Weds evening, and on those other two services we really do rip into the Word and study it out together rather than just believe it co we were told to. Which I think a lot of good churches could learn from and become great churches. Anyway that being said I'll move on.

    I believe the key to submission is God first, everything else second, especially your spouse.

    I am definitely Blessed to have a husband that loves God, actively seeks God, Prays, Studies, Talks about God always. Its very easy to submit to a man who submits to God. And there is the second Key to submission- submitting to a man who understands submission. I believe a man needs to be submitted to God before he can expect anyone else to submit to him. And wives, its your responsibility to marry a man who is ALREADY submitted to God, how will you know? Well what is his life producing. "You will know the tree by its fruit". I do believe that a submissive relationship works, and thats how it was intended to work, but I also believe there is context to that. Submit to a man who is submitted to God, whole heartedly. If my husband stopped seeking God and wanted to go clubbing on a Sat night and sleep in on a Sunday does that mean I do the same? Of course not! God First! Him Second!

    As another poster said, a man who is submitted to God already will be aligned with the Word and will make it very easy for a woman to be submitted to because he can honour and obey her husband while being also submitted to God herself.

    Those are my thoughts.
     
  15. Conservativation

    Conservativation New Member

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    So, you were abused, I was abused...as children, we've talked about it....do you toss that into every parenting conversation you encounter because you "want reassurance that it was unacceptable"?
    I disagree that its not unreasonable...it is unreasonable, its even rude. I dont even think the motive is as purely seeking some reassurance as you say, because if it was it would come up in many more topics even those where it is actually MORE of a valid tangent. I like my parenting topic example, people talk about parenting and do not literally DEFINE it with one bookend being a walk through the junkyard of abuse. But here, it is an attempt to take what is being expressed here, a VERY nonthreatening view on this topic, and paint it with this abuse to discredit it by association.

    One persons experience has proven inadequate to sway large numbers of people, therefore it ratchets up with these terrible anecdotes, the people posting these havent claimed to experience anything horrible like that, so they arent just throwing in some similar thing for reassurance.
     
  16. Conservativation

    Conservativation New Member

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    right, I dont even care about that, but you'd think I was a drill sergeant. Im pretty sure I have never once commended a decision ever in my house. Heck in parenting Im the pushover. Its just an equilibrium that I cant even explain, it just settled in over time and it is what it is, we know our boundaries and stay in them. And here, that view of mine gets painted in the worst male trump card way.....that is NOT some assurance seeking that someones abuse was wrong...heck its not even close to true.....there is no basis for reasoned conversation here, there are only programed responses we have seen dozens of times, and it really doesn't even matter if they are relevant or not.

    But the treatment of anyone who differs from the female headship model, and sorry thats what it is, is lumped extreme
     
  17. Psalm63

    Psalm63 New Member

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    The idea which Robertson McQuilken advocated was that the EXERCISE of the "final decision making authority" should be "RARE"; exceedingly RARE, but nevertheless he supported it and he taught it.

    Do you or do you not support the idea that God's Word endows HUSBANDS with final decision making authority in a marriage?



     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 21, 2011
  18. Psalm63

    Psalm63 New Member

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    The way its taught is that WHEN there is an unresolvable conflict, it is THE WIFE who must follow the husband because he has "final decision making authority"

    If she hears the verses as commanding her to submit to him in everything (which would not be surprising; see the translations listed below) , then :holy:OF COURSE it will not be "against her will"!!! :holy: Because she will think that she is obligated to submit to him in order to be obedient and pleasing to God. What Christian wife does not want to be obedient and pleasing to GOD??? If she has to suck it up and suffer, well, God must have His reasons, right???

    Robertson McQuilken, president of Columbia Biblical Seminary, is quoted on the other thread where your post is linked of having used his male trump card TWICE in his marriage.

    Some men might need to use their "final decision making authority" more often, dontcha think? Like if he is married to a contentious woman? :eek:


    In various English Bible versions, the words of Ephesians 5:24 are rendered (source):

    • “wives should submit” (NIV, NLT, ESV, )
    • “wives ought to be [subject to]” (NASB
    • “wives must be submissive” (ISV)
    • “wives are under their husbands’ authority in everything.” (GW)
    • “Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so [let] the wives [be] to their own husbands in every thing. (KJV)
    • “so let the wives be” (AKJV, WBT)
    • “so let the wives also be” (ERV, ASV, WEB
    • married women should be entirely submissive to their husbands. (WNT)
    • And as the church is under Christ’s authority, so let wives be under the rule of their husbands in all things. (Bible in Basic English)
    The latter rendition of the Bible in Basic English is noteworthy for how visibly we can see the parallel of Ephesians 5:24 with Genesis 3:16. However, BiBE and all of the above translations add words and grammar which are not there in the Greek. The KJV at least brackets the added words so we realize they are additions. If we take out the “let” and “be” from the 6 translations above where they have been added, then they are more accurate. The grammar of the Greek verb hupotasso, translated “to submit” or “to be subject” is not imperative: it is not a command! The grammar of the Greek verb is passive indicative. The following two translations reflect this accurately:
    Young’s Literal Translation
    “but even as the assembly is subject to Christ, so also are the wives to their own husbands in everything.”

    Darby Bible Translation
    “But even as the assembly is subjected to the Christ, so also wives to their own husbands in everything.”




     
  19. hijklmnop

    hijklmnop Guest

    Handing over the right to MAKE the final decision may not be against a submissive wife's will (though some do so out of fear of condemnation), but the choice that is made may not be the one they would have made, even if they themselves were seeking out the Lord's will. There is therefore, as far as I see it then, the unspoken assumption that in a marriage of two Christians, the h is more trusted to be able to discern the Lord's will than the wife since he is given the duty to make such decisions with the assumption that he will correctly seek out and discern God's will. That is a hierarchy. God-husband-wife. The wife trusts him in that, IMO, sometimes too naively since we should not forget that h's are no more divinely connected to God than wives and no less fallen, as Johnnz reminded us. Doesn't mean that we who don't leave it up to our h's primarily to seek out the Lord's will for our families think ourselves MORE highly than our h's...but equally able to lead ourselves and our children in the way of the Lord. We are to put our trust in God, NOT another human being; that is Biblical. I just read a passage in Psalms about that last night, interestingly enough. There's a fine line between loving and respecting your h and idolizing him.

    Plus, re. the bolded: since when is there a Biblical allowance for if the h is NOT truly seeking and following God's will? Wives are still expected to "submit" to an unbelieving h, are they not? Faith and C2W talk about how happy they are to submit but they are fortunate to have h's who treat them well and who they believe are putting the Lord first. If not...then what? It's not an extreme situation; it's very common, and to ignore the obvious problems that will then arise if a wife IS supposed to submit to her h simply because he is her h is irresponsible. PERHAPS it doesn't work so often because it's legalistic and misguided...misinterpreted.

    Lastly, if a h and wife are both seemingly seeking the Lord's will and as yet coming up with different ideas as to how a certain problem should be handled (this is not uncommon), it apparently must be presumed at some point that the h is right....or the wife wasn't seeking the Lord's will...or her will would have aligned with the h's. That's just insulting to women, TBH.
     
  20. JaneFW

    JaneFW New Member

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    Chaz, I have seen a huge cross-section of opinions being given. I don't see you saying to those who are pro-submission that "I don't see the point in ONLY discussing that", so why is the reverse true? I think that every angle should be discussed, because that is the only *honest* way to have a discussion.
     
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