Women's pastors?

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OzSpen

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I believe he's referring to the unpardonable sin. Where Jesus warn the Pharisees that blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is an unpardonable sin when they accuse Him during his miracles of being devil possessed.

Let's wait to hear from him about the meaning. I got the part about the unpardonable sin from the NT, but I was not seeing the personal application in this thread. I'm seeking clarification from him.
 
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Bluelion

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Let's wait to hear from him about the meaning. I got the part about the unpardonable sin from the NT, but I was not seeing the personal application in this thread. I'm seeking clarification from him.

Yeah basically that is what i was saying, sense he was so sure the Holy Spirit was not working through us, so I told him be careful all he has to do is go one step further and say it is by satan we say what we say, and He has in fact done as the pharisee.

I just thought i would warn him he can go to far. Because i know it is truth what I we are saying about women. Sure some will argue it is not by the Holy Spirit, what is another name for the Holy Spirit? The Spirit of Truth. So basically telling him if he is going to start hurling insults and question by which we speak he better be sure it is not truth. I just didn't want him to do something he can't un do out of pride or arrogance.
 
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Bluelion

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How many times must we go over this before you understand that your claim of a logical fallacy is...well illogical. If we were claiming that our view was correct BECAUSE its tradition, then THAT would be appeal to tradition. We AREN'T! We're stating that because it's true (as we've shown innumerable times now) it has become a tradition. Vastly different, 180 degrees different, from your accusation.




No, this is incorrect. If he were saying that what you were saying was of satan, instead of the Holy Spirit, then you might be correct, however he is stating that you are claiming the Holy Spirit is teaching you you're view, but that it is in error, and therefore only of you, not of God. That's not claiming God's works are actually satanic works, only that you keep claiming your view is Godly revelation, yet is incorrect.

Now, if you'd like to explain to all of us why the Holy Spirit would keep us all in the dark for 2000 years on this issue, we're all ears.

And you're right, it isn't a game to twist God's words to fit your preferred social structure.

Doesn't matter how you word it when you say its been done this way for 2000 years so it must be true, that is fallacy.

Your argument doesn't hold water either because as I have pointed out and you fail to address, slavery has been done for longer than 2000 years and you could say that was traditions, but we know that is wrong now don't we.

Your argument is its true so that is why people did it for 2000 years, I just so something else done for thousands of years but was in fact wrong. You know what else was done for thousands of years as I pointed out stoning people to death, but that was wrong to wasn't it as Jesus showed.

But you just prefer to ignore those rebuttal and like a broken record keep on saying what your saying when you whole argument hangs on one verse out of the Bible 1 tim 2, which does not mean what you think. In fact both I and oz have give alternate views which you do not address.

So why should anyone take you serious when you ignore what everyone else says and just repeat your self over and over with no new evidence. I think it save to say your mind is not open on the subject. It's funny but I thought teachers were suppose to make people feel good about God, that is not what you do. Next you'll tell me God is not about love that i am just liberal I should be preaching hell fire and brimstone even though Jesus spoke very little of hell.
 
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Doesn't matter how you word it when you say its been done this way for 2000 years so it must be true, that is fallacy.
Please go Google what an appeal to tradition fallacy actually is. Your willful ignorance is apparently beyond me to crack through. Claiming something is true simply because it's tradition, is the appeal to tradition fallacy. Saying something is true, and through that truth it later becomes a tradition, is the antithesis of an appeal to tradition fallacy.

Next you'll tell me God is not about love that i am just liberal I should be preaching hell fire and brimstone even though Jesus spoke very little of hell.
Saying "God is love" is a bumper sticker, not a theology. It's not even scratching the surface of what God is. God is also righteous, holy, vengeful, and wrath. Do you deny this?

Also, you may want to double check yourself. Jesus spoke more of hell than any other person in the new testament. In fact He mentions hell no less than 46 times. Jesus was the original hell fire preacher! And you want to get a master's degree in Divinity?
 
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OzSpen

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Yeah basically that is what i was saying, sense he was so sure the Holy Spirit was not working through us, so I told him be careful all he has to do is go one step further and say it is by satan we say what we say, and He has in fact done as the pharisee.

I just thought i would warn him he can go to far. Because i know it is truth what I we are saying about women. Sure some will argue it is not by the Holy Spirit, what is another name for the Holy Spirit? The Spirit of Truth. So basically telling him if he is going to start hurling insults and question by which we speak he better be sure it is not truth. I just didn't want him to do something he can't un do out of pride or arrogance.

Thanks for that clarification.

You might like to take a closer look at what was stated at #332: http://www.christianforums.com/t7856138-34/.
 
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Bluelion

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Thanks for that clarification.

You might like to take a closer look at what was stated at #332: http://www.christianforums.com/t7856138-34/.

I was going by this statement he made.

"It makes me think that the Holy Spirit is not with those who question the clear renderings of Scripture, and all of those men who have understood it in the same way."


He implies to things I am questioning scripture, when I am question him, and that he questions if i have the Holy Spirit.

Or was i to quick with that?
 
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Bluelion

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Please go Google what an appeal to tradition fallacy actually is. Your willful ignorance is apparently beyond me to crack through. Claiming something is true simply because it's tradition, is the appeal to tradition fallacy. Saying something is true, and through that truth it later becomes a tradition, is the antithesis of an appeal to tradition fallacy.


Saying "God is love" is a bumper sticker, not a theology. It's not even scratching the surface of what God is. God is also righteous, holy, vengeful, and wrath. Do you deny this?

Also, you may want to double check yourself. Jesus spoke more of hell than any other person in the new testament. In fact He mentions hell no less than 46 times. Jesus was the original hell fire preacher! And you want to get a master's degree in Divinity?

and your ordained? Sorry but it is 1 john 4:8

7 Dear friends, let us continue to love one another, for love comes from God. Anyone who loves is a child of God and knows God. 8 But anyone who does not love does not know God, for God is love.

so now your claiming God's word is a bumper sticker?.

Is God wrath. No he pours it out though does that make Him wrath? same with vengeance. does it claim any where in the bible He is this things the way 1 john 4:8 says He is love?
Jesus said the heart of the Lord was mercy, that really doesn't fit with these two things you claim God is.

Is he righteous yes the Bibles says He is, is He Holy yes the Bible says He is. It never says He is wrath or vengeance but says He has those. Really if God was that we would not even be here, God always chose to hold off on those two things.

Jesus preach hell fire and brimstone? we must be worshiping two very different Jesus. Where is Mathew does it say such things?
 
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OzSpen

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Bluelion,

You have hit the mark. One of the the explanations is that it is a fallacy of 'Appeal to common practice'. When can't have a logical conversation when people resort to using a logical fallacy.

This issue of women in ministry should be debated and resolved on the basis of the issues involved, including exegesis of the text. Stating that there has been an exclusion of women in ministry for 1900 years launches into this kind of logical fallacy.

Oz



Doesn't matter how you word it when you say its been done this way for 2000 years so it must be true, that is fallacy.

Your argument doesn't hold water either because as I have pointed out and you fail to address, slavery has been done for longer than 2000 years and you could say that was traditions, but we know that is wrong now don't we.

Your argument is its true so that is why people did it for 2000 years, I just so something else done for thousands of years but was in fact wrong. You know what else was done for thousands of years as I pointed out stoning people to death, but that was wrong to wasn't it as Jesus showed.

But you just prefer to ignore those rebuttal and like a broken record keep on saying what your saying when you whole argument hangs on one verse out of the Bible 1 tim 2, which does not mean what you think. In fact both I and oz have give alternate views which you do not address.

So why should anyone take you serious when you ignore what everyone else says and just repeat your self over and over with no new evidence. I think it save to say your mind is not open on the subject. It's funny but I thought teachers were suppose to make people feel good about God, that is not what you do. Next you'll tell me God is not about love that i am just liberal I should be preaching hell fire and brimstone even though Jesus spoke very little of hell.
 
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and your ordained? Sorry but it is 1 john 4:8

7 Dear friends, let us continue to love one another, for love comes from God. Anyone who loves is a child of God and knows God. 8 But anyone who does not love does not know God, for God is love.

so now your claiming God's word is a bumper sticker?.

Is God wrath. No he pours it out though does that make Him wrath? same with vengeance. does it claim any where in the bible He is this things the way 1 john 4:8 says He is love?
Jesus said the heart of the Lord was mercy, that really doesn't fit with these two things you claim God is.

Is he righteous yes the Bibles says He is, is He Holy yes the Bible says He is. It never says He is wrath or vengeance but says he has those. Really if God was that we would not even be here, God always chose to hold off on those two things.

Jesus preach hell fire and brimstone? we must be worshiping two very different Jesus. Where is Mathew does it say such things?

Wow, if you are in fact in classes toward a master's degree, find a better school! Your ignorance is quite staggering!

Matthew 5:22,29-30
Matthew 10:28
Matthew 18:9
Matthew 23:15, 33

Not enough? Let's try Mark!
Mark 9:43, 45, 47

How about Luke?
Luke 12:5

And those are just the times He uses the word hell itself! It doesn't count all the other times He uses phrases such as "outer darkness" etc, in direct allusions to hell! My goodness! What are they teaching in seminaries these days? To your "response" to the bumper sticker, yes, "God is love" is a bumper sticker. A "feel-good-ism" and doesn't even begin to scratch the surface of God. The problem is, people only take the shallow view of God, claim "God is love, so He loves everyone equally, etc, etc, ad nauseum".
What do you do with verses like Revelation 6:16, or 14:10? How about Malachi 1:2-4?
I have loved you,” says the Lord.

“But you ask, ‘How have you loved us?’

“Was not Esau Jacob’s brother?” declares the Lord. “Yet I have loved Jacob, but Esau I have hated, and I have turned his hill country into a wasteland and left his inheritance to the desert jackals.”

Edom may say, “Though we have been crushed, we will rebuild the ruins.”

But this is what the Lord Almighty says: “They may build, but I will demolish.They will be called the Wicked Land, a people always under the wrath of the Lord."

God is not one aspect above all others! He is all aspects to perfection! He is perfect love, perfect righteousness, perfect vengance, perfect jealousy, perfect wrath, etc. Anything less is to try to limit God, to shrink him down to a palatable level where you can ignore His aspects you don't understand. As a matter of fact, give me a couple of days, and I'll give you a brief essay on this that will explain much more thoroughly, and show you your tremendous error!
 
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Bluelion,

You have hit the mark. One of the the explanations is that it is a fallacy of 'Appeal to common practice'. When can't have a logical conversation when people resort to using a logical fallacy.

This issue of women in ministry should be debated and resolved on the basis of the issues involved, including exegesis of the text. Stating that there has been an exclusion of women in ministry for 1900 years launches into this kind of logical fallacy.

Oz

Hardly Oz, and I really wish you'd stop going to the Internet scouring it for logical fallacies in order to ignore arguments that prove your stance in error. It clutters threads. If you have no further argument besides what has been refuted, please stop derailing with these types of posts. It's annoying.
 
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OzSpen

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Hardly Oz, and I really wish you'd stop going to the Internet scouring it for logical fallacies in order to ignore arguments that prove your stance in error. It clutters threads. If you have no further argument besides what has been refuted, please stop derailing with these types of posts. It's annoying.

False charge!:doh:

When you and others quit using logical fallacies, then we'll be able to get on with logical discussions.
 
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Bluelion

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Bluelion,

You have hit the mark. One of the the explanations is that it is a fallacy of 'Appeal to common practice'. When can't have a logical conversation when people resort to using a logical fallacy.

This issue of women in ministry should be debated and resolved on the basis of the issues involved, including exegesis of the text. Stating that there has been an exclusion of women in ministry for 1900 years launches into this kind of logical fallacy.

Oz

thank you oz. I had study fallacy in school but could not think of the one he was doing off hand but I new it was one.
 
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PrincetonGuy

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Junia and Romans 16:7

This verse reads: “Greet Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen and my fellow prisoners. They are well known to the apostles, and they were in Christ before me” (ESV). The NIV translates as: “Greet Andronicus and Junias, my relatives who have been in prison with me. They are outstanding among the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was.” These two different translations show some of the dimensions of the difficulties in translating this verse.

Literally, the Greek reads (English translation): “Greet Andronicus and Junia/the kinsmen of me and fellow-captives of me who are notable among/in/by the apostles who also before me have been in Christ.”

The controversy surrounds the gender of Junia, relating to the phrase, “among the apostles.” If Junia is feminine and she is among the apostles, this makes her a female apostle.

This is a brief examination of these 3 points.

a. The gender of Junia.

The Greek form, Jounian (from Junias), depending on the Greek accent given to it, could be either masculine or feminine. So the person could be a man, Junianus, or a woman, Junia. “Interpreters from the thirteenth to the middle of the twentieth century generally favored the masculine identification, but it appears that commentators before the thirteenth century were unanimous in favor of the feminine identification; and scholars have recently again inclined decisively to this same view. And for probably good reason.... The Latin ‘Junia’ was a very common name. Probably, then, ‘Junia’ was the wife of Andronicus (note the other husband and wife pairs in this list, Prisca and Aquila [v. 3] and [probably], Philologus and Julia [v. 15]”.[1]

b. Is Junia a female apostle

The phrase “esteemed/notable by the apostles” is a possible Greek construction as in the ESV.[2] But it is more natural to translate as “esteemed/notable among the apostles,” as with the NIV.
Why is it more natural? See this footnote.[3]

Andronicus and Junia were possibly a husband and wife team of apostles.[4]

c. Junia is therefore a female apostle.

This means that Junia was a female apostle, not one of the Twelve, but one of the ministry gifts of Christ to the church (See Eph. 4:11) – an apostle who was a woman.

Notes
[1] Douglas G. Moo, The Epistle to the Romans (The New International Commentary on the New Testament). Grand Rapids, Michigan: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1996, pp. 921-922.
[2] This is using the preposition, ev, in its instrumental sense.
[3] With a plural object [apostles], ev often means ‘among’; and if Paul had wanted to say that Andronicus and Junia were esteemed ‘by’ the apostles, we would have expected him to use a simple dative [case] or [the preposition] hupo with the genitive [case]. The word epistemoi (‘splendid,’ ‘prominent,’ ‘outstanding’; only here in the NT in this sense [cf. also Matt. 27:16]) also favors this rendering” (Moo, The Epistle to the Romans, p. 923, n. 39,).
[4] Gordon Fee says that that Rom. 16:7 refers to “probably Andronicus and his wife [Junia]” (I Corinthians, 1987, Eerdmans, p. 729, n. 80).

I'm not holding my breath waiting for positive feedback from those supporting a traditionalist interpretation.

Regards,
Oz

The evidence currently available, which is substantial, points to a man and a woman (likely husband and wife) being in view in Romans 16:7, Andronicus and Junia. However, the evidence currently available does not as strongly point to Andronicus and Junia being apostles in the sense that Paul was an apostle. Douglas Moo, who is quoted in the above quote, writes on p. 923 in the same commentary, “But many scholars on both sides of this issue are guilty of accepting too readily a key supposition in this line of reasoning: that “apostle” here refers to an authoritative leadership position such as that held by the “Twelve” and by Paul. In fact, Paul often uses the title “apostle” in a “looser” sense: sometimes to simply to denote a “messenger” or “emissary” and sometimes to denote a “commissioned missionary.” Therefore, point c. Junia is therefore a female apostle is not a valid deduction.

For more information regarding Andronicus and Junia, please see the following more technical commentaries on Romans:

Fitzmyer, Joseph A. Romans: A New Translation with Introduction and Commentary. The Anchor Yale Bible, Volume 33. New Haven: Yale University Press, 1993. (pp. 733-744.

Jewett, Robert. Romans: A Commentary. Hermeneia, A Critical and Historical Commentary on the Bible. Minneapolis: Fortress Press, 2007. (pp. 961-964)

The most comprehensive (by far) academic commentary on Romans by a Baptist is:

Schreiner, Thomas R. Romans. Baker Exegetical Commentary on the New Testament series. Grand Rapids: Baker Academic, 1998.

On pages 795-797, Schreiner expresses the same opinions as does Moo regarding Junia and her being an apostle, but he leaves out most of the data upon which his opinion is based. This data, however, is well supplied in the commentaries on Romans by Fitzmyer and Jewett, and to a less extent in the commentary on Romans by Moo. Nonetheless, Schreiner does give us a very quotable quote:

“One should scarcely conclude from the reference to Junia and the other women coworkers named here that women exercised authority over men contrary to the Pauline admonition in 1 Tim. 2:12.”

We can be sure, however, that whoever Junia was, she [or he] did NOT serve a church in a manner contrary to Paul’s instructions in 1 Tim. 2:12 and elsewhere,

1 Cor. 11:3. But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ.

1 Cor. 14:34. The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says.
35. If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church.
36. Was it from you that the word of God first went forth? Or has it come to you only?
37. If anyone thinks he is a prophet or spiritual, let him recognize that the things which I write to you are the Lord's commandment.
38. But if anyone does not recognize this, he is not recognized.

Eph. 5:22. Wives, be subject to your own husbands, as to the Lord.
23. For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body.
24. But as the church is subject to Christ, so also the wives ought to be to their husbands in everything.

Eph. 6:1. Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right.

Col. 3:18. Wives, be subject to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord.

1 Tim. 2:11. A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness.
12. But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet.
13. For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve.
14. And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.

Peter agrees,

1 Pet. 3:1. In the same way, you wives, be submissive to your own husbands so that even if any of them are disobedient to the word, they may be won without a word by the behavior of their wives,
2. as they observe your chaste and respectful behavior.

1 Pet. 35. For in this way in former times the holy women also, who hoped in God, used to adorn themselves, being submissive to their own husbands;
6. just as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord, and you have become her children if you do what is right without being frightened by any fear.

(All quotations from the Scriptures are from the NASB, 1995)


Women are not to “teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet” in the church, and they “must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness.” Therefore they must not preach or teach in the church. Why? The Bible tells us why in 1 Tim. 2:13-14 quoted above, “it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman.” Until the church is able to change who was deceived in the garden, the church has no business changing what the Bible teaches about women keeping silent in church.

Furthermore, as the above quoted passages from the Bible teach, God has created a hierarchy of authority, a hierarchy of authority that is to be obeyed in the church, in the home, and in all aspects of the Christian life:

God (the Father)
Christ
Men
Women
Children
 
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Bluelion

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Wow, if you are in fact in classes toward a master's degree, find a better school! Your ignorance is quite staggering!

Matthew 5:22,29-30
Matthew 10:28
Matthew 18:9
Matthew 23:15, 33

Not enough? Let's try Mark!
Mark 9:43, 45, 47

How about Luke?
Luke 12:5

And those are just the times He uses the word hell itself! It doesn't count all the other times He uses phrases such as "outer darkness" etc, in direct allusions to hell! My goodness! What are they teaching in seminaries these days? To your "response" to the bumper sticker, yes, "God is love" is a bumper sticker. A "feel-good-ism" and doesn't even begin to scratch the surface of God. The problem is, people only take the shallow view of God, claim "God is love, so He loves everyone equally, etc, etc, ad nauseum".
What do you do with verses like Revelation 6:16, or 14:10? How about Malachi 1:2-4?
I have loved you,” says the Lord.

“But you ask, ‘How have you loved us?’

“Was not Esau Jacob’s brother?” declares the Lord. “Yet I have loved Jacob, but Esau I have hated, and I have turned his hill country into a wasteland and left his inheritance to the desert jackals.”

Edom may say, “Though we have been crushed, we will rebuild the ruins.”

But this is what the Lord Almighty says: “They may build, but I will demolish.They will be called the Wicked Land, a people always under the wrath of the Lord."

God is not one aspect above all others! He is all aspects to perfection! He is perfect love, perfect righteousness, perfect vengance, perfect jealousy, perfect wrath, etc. Anything less is to try to limit God, to shrink him down to a palatable level where you can ignore His aspects you don't understand. As a matter of fact, give me a couple of days, and I'll give you a brief essay on this that will explain much more thoroughly, and show you your tremendous error!

Like I said to different Jesus. I see love in all those passages, A calling to people to repent, that is not what I call hell fire preaching. As a child i was very afraid at time by what the pastor had said in church, I found it hard to sleep, it instills fear and I been saved a long time. As we know God has not given us a spirit of fear, and those who fear, fear punishment and have not experienced God's full love, 1 john 4 I believe.

So tell me so called minister do you always sin while you preach? I can understand it is hard to obey God, but you would think you could at least follow forum rules. I too find it hard to follow forum rules when people are insulting me and not obeying them them self. But have i made statements to insult you.

You are again speaking fallacies. Ad Hominem, Oz is right we can not have a valid debate if you and other keep using fallacies. That is not actually arguing a point fyi.

Lets pick you apart shall we. Esau and Jacob The word hate does not actually mean hate as in the emotion, in the Greek word it refers to reject. and the word love refer to accept. so the translation would read Jacob I have accepted but Esau i have rejected. That is what my school is teaching. I don't believe you are ordained or you would know that. you are no teacher that is for sure.
 
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The evidence currently available, which is substantial, points to a man and a woman (likely husband and wife) being in view in Romans 16:7, Andronicus and Junia. However, the evidence currently available does not as strongly point to Andronicus and Junia being apostles in the sense that Paul was an apostle. Douglas Moo, who is quoted in the above quote, writes on p. 923 in the same commentary, “But many scholars on both sides of this issue are guilty of accepting too readily a key supposition in this line of reasoning: that “apostle” here refers to an authoritative leadership position such as that held by the “Twelve” and by Paul. In fact, Paul often uses the title “apostle” in a “looser” sense: sometimes to simply to denote a “messenger” or “emissary” and sometimes to denote a “commissioned missionary.” Therefore, point c. Junia is therefore a female apostle is not a valid deduction.

Junia IS a valid deduction as a female apostle among the apostles. In fact, it was Paul himself who taught that in God's hierarchy of gifts (not the 12 apostles or Paul),
And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helping, administrating, and various kinds of tongues (1 Cor 12;28 ESV).
However, you and I know that at this stage you and I are not going to agree on this conclusion.

However, my commitment to Scripture is no less than yours. Or, are you being accused of a lower view of Scripture when discussing other topics?
 
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PrincetonGuy

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Bluelion,

You have hit the mark. One of the the explanations is that it is a fallacy of 'Appeal to common practice'. When can't have a logical conversation when people resort to using a logical fallacy.

This issue of women in ministry should be debated and resolved on the basis of the issues involved, including exegesis of the text. Stating that there has been an exclusion of women in ministry for 1900 years launches into this kind of logical fallacy.

Oz

The argument that for 1900 years the New Testament was almost universally understood to teach that women are forbidden to serve in the church as teachers or pastors is NOT “An appeal to common practice fallacy.” It is an appeal to the history of the interpretation of the New Testament—one of the most significant factors in evaluating the correctness of an interpretation. Indeed, the logic could not be more sound. If the new and novel doctrine that women may serve in the church as teachers or pastors is true, the Apostle Paul was such a terrible writers that no one was able to understand his teaching on the role of women in the church until Catherine Booth (a co-founder of the Salvation Army) wrote and published in 1859 a pamphlet entitled, “Female Ministry: Woman’s Right to Preach the Gospel.” Indeed, the only ‘fallacy’ in the argument is the time frame—it is more accurately about 1,793 years rather than 1,900 years.

How it came about that women began to preach and to usurp authority over Christian men in the Church is both an interesting and revealing story. The story begins with John Wesley and his belief that Christian theology should be based upon four things:

Scripture
Tradition
Experience
Reason

This concept is known as the Wesleyan Quadrilateral. Scripture is always of foremost importance, but according to Wesley it should never be studied apart from its historical interpretation and application. Belief in the Bible apart from the experience of it in one’s life does not constitute genuine faith—and the Christian experience must extend beyond one’s self into Christian service. Moreover, one’s beliefs must be capable of being defended in a rational manner based upon sound reasoning.

The Wesleyan Quadrilateral is the theological basis of the Methodist Church. The Salvation Army, the Church of the Nazarene, and the Pentecostal churches (of which the Assemblies of God is the largest denomination) are all outgrowths of the Methodist Church and its Wesleyan Quadrilateral.

Wesley never imagined that his Quadrilateral would be so severely abused as to “justify” women serving as elders in the Church, but once personal Christian experience was allowed to have a voice in the formation of theology, it rapidly began to take dominance over Scripture. In 1859, Catherine Booth (a co-founder of the Salvation Army) wrote and published a pamphlet entitled, “Female Ministry: Woman’s Right to Preach the Gospel.” This pamphlet was written in defense of her new role model, the American Wesleyan revivalist Phoebe Palmer who, with her husband Walter, moved to the United Kingdom in 1859 where they lived and preached for several years—with Phoebe as the dominant partner.

Along with experience, reason also came to be severely abused, and women argued vehemently from reason (and by taking Scriptures out of context) in support of their new and novel doctrine. Most unfortunately, the fourth part of the Quadrilateral, tradition, was brushed aside.

Human beings have shown themselves to be capable of persuading themselves to believe almost anything—including the belief that their new and novel doctrines really are taught in the Bible.
 
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OzSpen

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PrincetonGuy,

The argument that for 1900 years the New Testament was almost universally understood to teach that women are forbidden to serve in the church as teachers or pastors is NOT “An appeal to common practice fallacy.” It is an appeal to the history of the interpretation of the New Testament—one of the most significant factors in evaluating the correctness of an interpretation. Indeed, the logic could not be more sound.

With respect, appealing to 1900 years of interpretation (in one direction is a logical fallacy, 'An appeal to common practice fallacy').

I note with significance that you are not appealing to the practice of the Quakers in the 17th century or the Salvation Army and Church of the Nazarene in recent centuries.

The issue is: We appeal to the exegesis of the text. You will have a great deal of difficulty in convincing me of the legitimacy of infant baptism, yet it has a LONG history in the history of the church.

No matter how long the tradition, it is a logical fallacy when you appeal to it - an appeal to common practice fallacy.

How is it that you want to deny this when logic says it is so?

Oz
 
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abacabb3

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With respect, appealing to 1900 years of interpretation (in one direction is a logical fallacy, 'An appeal to common practice fallacy').

I note with significance that you are not appealing to the practice of the Quakers in the 17th century or the Salvation Army and Church of the Nazarene in recent centuries.

Picking a few atypical exceptions does not silence the historical witness of the Church. Christians believe we evaluate the Scripture as a community. It is not everyone in the woods coming up with their own interpretation of the Scripture. This approach has led to heresies and false doctrines, and it should be avoided.

Call this a "logical fallacy" does not make the approach you are endorsing, where you are the final arbiter in matters of truth, any less irresponsible. It would be like someone today coming up with opinions without any reference to commentaries and scholarship. The witness of the Church is very important.
 
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abacabb3

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your whole argument is a fallacy, Appeal to tradition how about you make a valid one?

I would be very careful when you start throwing around who you think has the Holy Spirit and who doesn't after all the called Jesus a devil and that was an unforgivable sin. and No i did not real just how it was unforgivable and if you don't know that you should not even be debating here.

Its not a game.

No it's not, I am asking you, how is John 16:13 relevant today? Why do you keep ignoring this simple question/
 
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