Women who had miscarriages can't receive the Eucharist?

[All4Christ]

I wonder if any recent Elders have spoken on it. seems like the kind of thing St. Paisios would have a word or two about.

That would definitely be enlightening the read the recent Elders or saints...might help with understanding this in recent times.

 

[prodromos]

I'm a bit surprised that the discussion has continued this far without anyone posting the relevant canon(s). Do they even suggest what has been claimed?

 

[All4Christ]

I'm a bit surprised that the discussion has continued this far without anyone posting the relevant canon(s). Do they even suggest what has been claimed?

Here's one of the prayers about it:

O Master Lord our God, Who wast born of the holy Theotokos and Ever-virgin Mary, and lay as a babe in the manger: According to Thy great mercy, do Thou Thyself have mercy upon this Thy handmaid, who today lieth in sins, having fallen into manslaughter, casting out, willingly or unintentionally, that which was conceived within her; and forgive her transgressions, voluntary or involuntary.

Preserve her from every snare of the devil, cleanse her defilement, and heal her pangs. Grant health and godly strength to her body and soul, O Thou Who lovest mankind, and with a radiant angel keep her from every attack of the invisible demons; yea, O Lord, and from infirmity and weakness.

Cleanse her of bodily defilement and from the divers disorders of the womb which afflict her; and by Thy great mercy, restore her in her humbled body, and raise her up from the bed whereon she lieth. For we have been born in sins and iniquities, and are all vile in Thy sight, O Lord; and with fear we cry out and say: Look down from heaven, and behold the infirmity of us who are condemned, and forgive this Thy handmaid, (Name), who lieth in sins, having fallen into manslaughter willingly or unintentionally, casting off that which had been conceived within her.

And according to Thy great mercy, in that Thou art the good God Who loveth mankind, have mercy and forgive those who found and touched her, for Thou alone hast the authority to remit sins and iniquities, through the supplications of Thy Mother and all the saints.

For unto Thee is due all glory, honor and worship, with the Father and the Holy Spirit, now and ever, and unto the ages of ages. Amen.

I've also seen versions without the manslaughter section.

 

[All4Christ]

Canon Law:

22nd Canon of John the Faster
“A woman, who involuntarily has expelled a baby through miscarriage, receives her penance for a year.” (22nd Canon of John the Faster).

 

[Cappadocious]

to be honest, i don't know that i could explain it, or that i understand it myself. but these canons were written by illumined Saints who bear the mind of Christ, and they were Ecumenically ratified by other illumined Saints who bear the mind of Christ.

You sure that the canons of pseudo-John the Faster, for example, are Ecumenically binding and universal? The argument has been made rather persuasively over on OC.net that this is not the case.

Modern people tend to get into Geron/Starez mentality when it comes to canons. I was reading through St. Photios's Bibliotheca yesterday, and noticed that one of St. Theodoret's writings was "against those who assert that we should neither seek arguments nor quote from the Scriptures, but that we must be satisfied with our faith." So evidently this line has been challenged by saints in the past; and if we wish to challenge St. Theodoret on this point, aren't we, thereby, making his point for him?

 

[prodromos]

When Elder Porphyrios (now Saint Porphyrios ) began taking confessions he initially applied the penitential canons strictly and it wasn't long before he noticed a distinct unwillingness for people to come for confession, since in many cases he was barring people from Holy Communion for years at a time. He quickly understood that it was necessary not to apply the canons strictly but rather to apply them leniently according to the spiritual strength of the person confessing

 

[prodromos]

Canon Law:

22nd Canon of John the Faster
“A woman, who involuntarily has expelled a baby through miscarriage, receives her penance for a year.” (22nd Canon of John the Faster). ​

Does it specify what the "penance" is? Is it necessarily abstaining from receiving Holy Communion?

 

[gzt]

I don't think we want to get into canons on this forum, as, note, none of us are qualified to be reading them. But penance usually means abstaining, yes.

 

[All4Christ]

I don't think we want to get into canons on this forum, as, note, none of us are qualified to be reading them. But penance usually means abstaining, yes.

True enough...we would be going crazy if we tried to follow the canons with reading them and following them literally by ourselves!

 

[jckstraw72]

When Elder Porphyrios (now Saint Porphyrios ) began taking confessions he initially applied the penitential canons strictly and it wasn't long before he noticed a distinct unwillingness for people to come for confession, since in many cases he was barring people from Holy Communion for years at a time. He quickly understood that it was necessary not to apply the canons strictly but rather to apply them leniently according to the spiritual strength of the person confessing

indeed, indeed. how strictly or leniently to apply the canons is a whole 'nother issue.

 

[jckstraw72]

You sure that the canons of pseudo-John the Faster, for example, are Ecumenically binding and universal? The argument has been made rather persuasively over on OC.net that this is not the case.

Modern people tend to get into Geron/Starez mentality when it comes to canons. I was reading through St. Photios's Bibliotheca yesterday, and noticed that one of St. Theodoret's writings was "against those who assert that we should neither seek arguments nor quote from the Scriptures, but that we must be satisfied with our faith." So evidently this line has been challenged by saints in the past; and if we wish to challenge St. Theodoret on this point, aren't we, thereby, making his point for him?

as far as i understand, canons from several local councils and several fathers were ratified at Trullo.

i don't understand your point about St. Theodoret ... couldn't his title just as easily be "Against those who assert that we should neither seek arguments nor quote from the canons, but that we must be satisfied with our faith?" the canons are another representation of our Tradition that we can look to in order to explain our faith to people. also icons, hymnography, lives of Saints, etc ... i don't think i understand what you're trying to say.

i haven't been to OC.net in a few years now. that place makes me sad!

 

[truefiction1]

It's not for the paying of a penalty for guilt that a woman is prescribed penance following miscarriage, but rather, for healing of the emotional afflictions that often result from her loss. All that the Church does is for the healing of sick souls for the implantation of joy.

 

[All4Christ]

It's not for the paying of a penalty for guilt that a woman is prescribed penance following miscarriage, but rather, for healing of the emotional afflictions that often result from her loss. All that the Church does is for the healing of sick souls for the implantation of joy.

How is it healing, when the Eucharist is a healing sacrament and a way to have union with God?

 

[truefiction1]

The process of penance (healthy change) is the way to union with God. The Eucharist is a sacramental expression of that "union through penance". If penance is prescribed it is because something awful has happened which needs to be addressed in such a way as to make sure that it does not cause those who suffered those awful things to become very sick because of it. A soldier returning from the battlefield who has experienced terrible things would be a prime example of someone in need of such help. Often times when a woman loses a child she does not necessarily receive the careful attention and support that she needs in order to recover optimal emotional health. If the Church makes a big deal about a miscarriage it is because she needs to assure that the woman is being taken care of by all those around her, and sufficiently attended to and supported. There were no psychotherapy practices back in the day -- spiritual fathers were responsible for providing such care. The same could be said of the forty day period prescribed for abstaining from Church following childbirth. Postpartum emotional concerns were likely an issue even back then.

 

[All4Christ]

The process of penance (healthy change) is the way to union with God. The Eucharist is a sacramental expression of that "union through penance". If penance is prescribed it is because something awful has happened which needs to be addressed in such a way as to make sure that it does not cause those who suffered those awful things to become very sick because of it. A soldier returning from the battlefield who has experienced terrible things would be a prime example of someone in need of such help. Often times when a woman loses a child she does not necessarily receive the careful attention and support that she needs in order to recover optimal emotional health. If the Church makes a big deal about a miscarriage it is because she needs to assure that the woman is being taken care of by all those around her, and sufficiently attended to and supported. There were no psychotherapy practices back in the day -- spiritual fathers were responsible for providing such care. The same could be said of the forty day period prescribed for abstaining from Church following childbirth. Postpartum emotional concerns were likely an issue even back then.

I'm not saying that it isn't important to take care of a woman emotionally - far from it...but how abstaining from communion provides healing to those who have done nothing wrong doesn't make sense to me. I guess it is a good thing that I don't have to make decisions of how to handle things like that, but I hope that if that happens that is not how my priest would handle that with requiring me to abstain from communion. It is emotionally scarring without that abstention from the union with God through the sacraments...and the separation from being with the members and support of the parish. When a woman stays home with her newborn child - she bonds with her child during that time. Someone who has lost her child does not have that same experience.

If that's what my priest prescribes if that happens to me - I will obey and pray that healing happens. I hope it doesn't though.

 

[Tallguy88]

i haven't read the pertinent canons in a while, but it has nothing to do with punishing a woman, just as no penance is ever about punishment. such an event leaves scars that need to be healed, and sometimes abstention from the Eucharist is medicine.

How can being barred from the Bread of Life when you have done nothing wrong be "medicine"? Sincere question. It makes no sense to me.

 

[Damaris]

How can being barred from the Bread of Life when you have done nothing wrong be "medicine"? Sincere question. It makes no sense to me.

It gives her time to rest and recover mentally and physically, before expecting her to go through the preparations for Holy Communion again.

Not every expected abstention from Holy Communion means you did something wrong.

 

[Tallguy88]

There is no problem if the abortion was an unwanted accident, a medical loss and the mother didn't wanted that, but for willing abortion the penitence and the denying of communion are 20 years, at least here in my country.

The term "abortion" is usually only applied to intentional abortion (infanticide) or in technical medical terms. If you used the term toward someone who had a miscarriage, you are likely to get punched by the husband.

 

[All4Christ]

It gives her time to rest and recover mentally and physically, before expecting her to go through the preparations for Holy Communion again. Not every expected abstention from Holy Communion means you did something wrong.

What about needing the support of friends and family? If I were to be at home for 40 days (in regards to church) I would be concerned about focusing on what had happened rather than focusing on Christ and spiritual life. Some may heal by being by themselves but others heal by being with others.

 

[Tallguy88]

It gives her time to rest and recover mentally and physically, before expecting her to go through the preparations for Holy Communion again.

Not every expected abstention from Holy Communion means you did something wrong.

But what if she wants/needs the sacrament? Why should she be denied "for her own good"? Plus those prayers posted are pretty clear that she sinned by miscarrying. Do Orthodox really believe that or is it just something from olden days that some people are unwilling to change?