Women readers

[~Anastasia~]

Scientology?

Bite your tongue! (As my Mama used to say, lol).

No thank you.

 

[gzt]

Pastoral decisions are, of course, inscrutable. One question is whether things really are working. Having only two or three people read is kind of small and I see no reason to artificially limit the pool to that number.

 

[jckstraw72]

Gurney....

you are a chauvinist pig

 

[Damaris]

And no one is "entitled" to the priesthood, are they? Not even those men who complete seminary?

Actually, no, they are not entitled to ordination for completing seminary. Ordination is at the bishop's discretion. A seminary education is a typical prerequisite for pursuing ordination, but it does not mean a seminary graduate is entitled to be ordained.

From the SVS website: "St. Vladimir's Seminary does not discriminate in admission or access to its programs and activities on the basis of race/color, national origin, disability, age, marital status, sex, or veteran status. At the same time, applicants are reminded that completion of a seminary program does not constitute a guarantee of ordination in the Orthodox Church. Ordination decisions are only within the competency of ecclesiastical authority."

 

[Damaris]

Well, take my parish for example. There's now me, the tonsured reader we already have who is in his late 50's, and another male parishioner who has gone to our church for a long time but doesn't have really the voice for reading THEN Father adds a teenage girl with a weak voice. I guess my question is why? Why add a fourth reader when 2 was cutting it just fine for years, and 3 is more than PLENTY fine? Why add a female teen? Just odd to me that's all. I have nothing personal against the girl, just don't see the point. And why not ask some other males who have strong voices and like reading?

Having a larger pool of readers is helpful. People move away, get sick, car breaks down one Sunday, etc.

The weak voices may be weak now, but they can become better with practice.

As for the teenage girl, it's possible that she asked about ways to become more involved, and Father decided this would be an appropriate task for her.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Ordination is at the bishop's discretion. A seminary education is a typical prerequisite for pursuing ordination, but it does not mean a seminary graduate is entitled to be ordained.

yep, and on the flipside, I know of more than a few priests that were ordained and did not have a seminary education.

 

[gzt]

That is, of course, becoming rarer, and generally with good reason.

 

[ArmyMatt]

That is, of course, becoming rarer, and generally with good reason.

true, but that depends on where you are. guys like Elder Cleopa of Romania did not have a seminary degree.

 

[gzt]

Sure, my remark is more directed at parish priests. Monasteries, they're an education in themselves and they can do whatever seems appropriate.

 

[ArmyMatt]

again, I think it depends. I would rather have a true theologian is one who prays, not one with an MDiv.

 

[gzt]

http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/attachment.php?attachmentid=894438

Above is "why not both?" image.

 

[Cappadocious]

I was Catholic and Anglican in my "former life," and I can attest to some feelings like this whenever a wiff of innovation is felt.

Good thing those feelings don't transmit past a generation!

One man's innovation is another man's paradosis, and vis versa. God will judge the factions, and approve his choice.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

elaborate and explain this please?

Good thing those feelings don't transmit past a generation!

 

[~Anastasia~]

elaborate and explain this please?

I was looking forward to understanding as well? I can't even find a really good discussion of paradosis - but I did see an archived series of podcasts with that name and plan to listen more.

(Not that I'm suggesting it would answer this question).

Are you reading tomorrow?

 

[Damaris]

I was looking forward to understanding as well? I can't even find a really good discussion of paradosis - but I did see an archived series of podcasts with that name and plan to listen more.

(Not that I'm suggesting it would answer this question).

Are you reading tomorrow?

He was basically saying that one man's innovation is another man's tradition. That can be true for certain cultural and ritual customs. But that would never apply to something as dramatically innovative as setting females apart as Readers.

 

[~Anastasia~]

He was basically saying that one man's innovation is another man's tradition. That can be true for certain cultural and ritual customs. But that would never apply to something as dramatically innovative as setting females apart as Readers.

Thank you. That makes sense.

I've seen people get all up-in-arms over issues that vary between parishes and jurisdictions, and they mostly seem not the kind of things I would want to argue over.

But I had in mind things like ordaining women or blessing homosexual marriages when I replied about "innovations" ... it was probably my understanding that was out of line.

Thanks for the clarification.

 

[Cappadocious]

He was basically saying that one man's innovation is another man's tradition. That can be true for certain cultural and ritual customs. But that would never apply to something as dramatically innovative as setting females apart as Readers.

What I meant, rather, was that the factions both argue from Tradition, and see the other as innovating; God will judge which faction is approved and true. Truth is relative, but it's relative to/within the Triune Communion, not cultural convention.

As for my comment about feelings: The concerns, background, unquestioned presumptions, etc. a convert brings to Orthodoxy are rarely able to be passed on to the next generation, save for that which is profitable; the Church is a good filter. The only danger would be if enough converts displaced the Church's ethos to enable such an unfiltered inheritance to occur. But I have faith that this will not happen.

As to Kylissa: Women priests and gay marriage are one thing; women readers and deacons are quite another. The latter two have precedent in our tradition, the female reader in monasteries and in times of need, and deacons:

http://www.anastasis.org.uk/ordinations.htm
http://www.anastasis.org.uk/woman_deacon.htm

There remain two questions, then: 1. Is there a good reason to expand the practice today? 2. Can it be done without falling prey to the perils of reconstructionism?

With respect to women readers, I would say that there is a good reason, and it is already being done, although it could be done more properly and orderly.

 

[~Anastasia~]

What I meant, rather, was that the factions both argue from Tradition, and see the other as innovating; God will judge which faction is approved and true. Truth is relative, but it's relative to/within the Triune Communion, not cultural convention.

As for my comment about feelings: The concerns, background, unquestioned presumptions, etc. a convert brings to Orthodoxy are rarely able to be passed on to the next generation, save for that which is profitable; the Church is a good filter. The only danger would be if enough converts displaced the Church's ethos to enable such an unfiltered inheritance to occur. But I have faith that this will not happen.

As to Kylissa: Women priests and gay marriage are one thing; women readers and deacons are quite another. The latter two have precedent in our tradition, the female reader in monasteries and in times of need, and deacons:

Ordinations
Woman Deacon

There remain two questions, then: 1. Is there a good reason to expand the practice today? 2. Can it be done without falling prey to the perils of reconstructionism?

With respect to women readers, I would say that there is a good reason, and it is already being done, although it could be done more properly and orderly.

Thank you, Cappadocious. It is truly the things that are without precedent and have strong reason to be rejected that I am most concerned with. My comment was probably out of order for the current discussion.

I've heard arguments that stirred up more strife than they ought, perhaps, over "little t traditions" and hope to avoid that.

As far as women readers and some other similar issues, I will leave that with others to decide and/or debate, as I'm not familiar enough with Church-wide history and thought to comment.

Thanks again!

 

[rusmeister]

In America, the innovation of a reaction against it probably 'kicked in' due to the persistence of ROCOR and the large influx of protestant converts beginning in the 80's, who came to believe in the slippery slope hypothesis after having things fall apart in the Anglican and Lutheran churches, especially.

There is no "slippery slope hypothesis". There are slippery slopes. Being on a slippery slope does not GUARANTEE that one will slip further, so we can dispense with talk of "fallacies" - they are not logically inevitable - but for Fallen man, slipping further is HIGHLY probable. Without seeking the help of Christ our God, I'd say that slipping further is in practice inevitable, logic not being something humans are especially noted for living by.

You may debate HOW slippery this particular slope is, but not that slippery slopes are only a hypothesis. You might as well say that physical slopes are only a hypothesis, because you have never seen one. There are really any number of citable examples of gradual degradation where permitting one thing made another, previously impossible thing possible, and eventually fact, and even series of such events. These are not hypotheses but historical fact, from the shift of Rome from Republic to Empire to the degradation of sexuality and the family over the past century. Nothing hypothetical about them. They actually happened.

 

[gzt]

I have not been able to get my hands on the Greek service books, but I have been told that their practice omits the exhortation "Bishop: My son (NAME), the first degree of the Priesthood is that of Reader..." which is, by the way, an exhortation, and not one of the prayers for tonsuring a reader. I welcome correction.