Women readers

[gurneyhalleck1]

Please don't think me a chauvinist pig for starting this thread, but I was wondering when the innovation of having women readers kicked in with Orthodoxy? It was my understanding that Reader is a type of super MINOR order linked with the priesthood? Or perhaps only tonsured readers are? But I was wondering when the Church started permitting female readers?

I know in Catholicism such things have been slippery slopes theologically. With Catholicism, female "altar boys" send the message that a job related to Christ's priesthood can be feminized. If Reader is participating in a small, minor way in the priesthood, how is it justified or understood that women can be Readers? I'm just wondering, not judging.

My priest used to have just two readers alternating. Now he has FOUR, and one of those is a very weak reader but he's very active in the parish, the other is a teenage girl with a weak voice who is "in the clique" at my parish. I'm just wondering how and why we need four readers when previously two of them, Joseph Hazen our own poster, friend, and seminarian here at TAW was one of them, worked just fine?

Anyway, I'm rambling. You guys know much about the development of women readers in the OC?

 

[truefiction1]

Yeah. It all started when there were no men in attendance at prayer services. Somebody had to do the chanting. I know a priest who started a mission and had to rely very heavily on his wife for all the responses, both sung and chanted. Actually I know more than one priest in such situations.

 

[gzt]

There are "Readers", the tonsured minor order, then there are "People who read". Frankly, it works well to have a wide number of "people who read", and even the otherwise conservative retired Bishop Tikhon (Fitzgerald) of the West was quite happy to have female "people who read". Only the first are referred to as "Readers".

EDIT: there is something to be said for having only men read the epistle - if you do that, you can have the proper "go into the altar for blessing to read" sequence.

 

[HalupkiMonster]

There are "Readers", the tonsured minor order, then there are "People who read".

Quite. There are no female readers - there can't be. But sometimes women read. It's not really the greatest scandal (though you'd be right to be concerned if you saw a woman in a cassock go behind the altar for a blessing or something.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

But I have read about women in Orthodox jurisdictions in the U.S. being TONSURED! Wouldn't that negate what you're saying? Those women would be considered "Readers" since they got tonsured, right? I'm missing something here...

If the Reader is a minor office of the priesthood, then tonsuring women would be a huge breach of Orthodox protocols that span centuries?

There are "Readers", the tonsured minor order, then there are "People who read". Frankly, it works well to have a wide number of "people who read", and even the otherwise conservative retired Bishop Tikhon (Fitzgerald) of the West was quite happy to have female "people who read". Only the first are referred to as "Readers".

EDIT: there is something to be said for having only men read the epistle - if you do that, you can have the proper "go into the altar for blessing to read" sequence.

 

[SeventhValley]

If men are not available or won't do a job isn't that be the same situation as when deconesses were tonsured back when men could not baptize women?

Apparently Russia never got rid of Deaconesses as Greece did but continued having them.

From Orthodoxwiki

It being improper for males to be physically handling women, deaconesses were commissioned to assist especially in baptism and chrismation.
It is an anachronism to say deaconesses did not perform the same liturgical role as deacons in the early church. That is imputing back in time to deacons a role which they were given considerably later in Church history.
In the early Church it is highly likely that deaconesses performed the same liturgical role as deacons, and quite likely more, because of the taboo on (male) priests touching female neophytes, or touching females requiring the sacrament of holy oil for the sick......


The Japanese Orthodox Church from its inception in the later half of the nineteenth century had some deaconesses. Japan's first bishop, St. Nicholas Kasatkin, had a number of deaconesses during his tenure.
At the same time, the Russian Orthodox Church, Japan's mother Church, had deaconesses. It seems from the scant material available that the Russian Church has always had deaconesses.
The Church of Greece has had deaconesses intermittently over the recent centuries, and appears to have usually had deaconesses in its female monasteries from time immemorial. In 2004 the Holy Synod of the Church of Greece officially restored the female diaconate.[1]
The Russian Orthodox Church still has deaconesses.[2]
In female monasteries the role of a deaconess seems necessary for the good order and function of the monastery church. It is more seemly than having male deacons involved there.
In 2006, the larger Bulgarian and Romanian monasteries have a deaconess who is usually second in charge. In Romania they wear distinctive garb while performing diaconal duties.
The question of having deaconesses perform the liturgical role of deacons in parish churches or cathedrals could be seen as a different matter since the practice of having deaconesses assist in those places seems to have generally died out in the Byzantine Church about 600 years ago with the inception of the Ottoman yoke

 

[ArmyMatt]

I have never heard of them being tonsured as readers, but given a blessing to read, and usually they are called women readers because it is easier. they also get the blessing outside of the altar area, rather than going in like male readers.

 

[gzt]

Here is the service in the service books: The Tonsuring of a Reader | Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese At least according to Antiochian usage. The Slavic usage is the same, except with perhaps some minor changes - I don't have it on hand to compare. I don't know what you've seen or heard. Perhaps the Greeks, they have their own ways.

 

[Anhelyna]

As a reader - not tonsured and Catholic to boot I've always regarded Reader as being distinct from reader .

I got involved some many years ago now because it was decided that we had to have the Readings in English as well as Ukrainian , and as true Ukrainians there was the usual attitude that it was 'so-and-so's' job, not theirs, but 'so-and-so' didn't actually exist in our Parish

Our priest asked me to do it as he knew I brought the readings with me each week . We tried to get a Rota but that didn't happen after the first month. The real snag was that this also involved reading the Gospel !

Agreed - Shock Horror a woman reading the Gospel !

Our Bishop came up and I spoke with him about this - I was after all the only first Language English member of the parish. He agreed that I should do both jobs whenever it was necessary and he did publicly Bless me for this.

I normally chant the Epistle each week now and if our Deacon is away and the Gospel is one that Father [ our married priest , just over a year with us now ] is not comfortable with in English then that week I'll chant the Epistle and read the Gospel for him [ think - the Matthew Genealogy one !! ]
Economia ? Yes it is and at times needed too

 

[SeventhValley]

This is cool

"Archbishop Nectarios of Constantinople (St. John Chrysostom’s predecessor) raised St. Olympias to the rank of Deaconess… The duties of a deaconess encompassed caring for suffering, unfortunate women, teaching them the Law of God, and assisting during the performance of the Holy Mysteries over them… St. Olympias set a good example in all of those areas. "-http://www.stjohndc.org/Russian/saints/SaintsE/e_0807_olimpiada.htm

 

[ArmyMatt]

If men are not available or won't do a job isn't that be the same situation as when deconesses were tonsured back when men could not baptize women?

women readers are also used when there are way to many OT readings for just the males. I know plenty of Churches that use women to read before Feasts where there is a ton of OT readings.

 

[Damaris]

I have never heard of them being tonsured as readers, but given a blessing to read, and usually they are called women readers because it is easier. they also get the blessing outside of the altar area, rather than going in like male readers.

Some parishes of the Greek Archdiocese have hosted what were termed tonsures of female Readers. This was not selecting females to simply read in church (I have read in church myself, numerous times), but earmarking them (I don't dare call it 'ordination') for permanent positions as Readers.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Woooah! A woman reading the Gospel!? I think some might say "is outrage!"

As a reader - not tonsured and Catholic to boot I've always regarded Reader as being distinct from reader .

I got involved some many years ago now because it was decided that we had to have the Readings in English as well as Ukrainian , and as true Ukrainians there was the usual attitude that it was 'so-and-so's' job, not theirs, but 'so-and-so' didn't actually exist in our Parish

Our priest asked me to do it as he knew I brought the readings with me each week . We tried to get a Rota but that didn't happen after the first month. The real snag was that this also involved reading the Gospel !

Agreed - Shock Horror a woman reading the Gospel !

Our Bishop came up and I spoke with him about this - I was after all the only first Language English member of the parish. He agreed that I should do both jobs whenever it was necessary and he did publicly Bless me for this.

I normally chant the Epistle each week now and if our Deacon is away and the Gospel is one that Father [ our married priest , just over a year with us now ] is not comfortable with in English then that week I'll chant the Epistle and read the Gospel for him [ think - the Matthew Genealogy one !! ]
Economia ? Yes it is and at times needed too

 

[Cappadocious]

I was wondering when the innovation of having women readers kicked in with Orthodoxy?

In America, the innovation of a reaction against it probably 'kicked in' due to the persistence of ROCOR and the large influx of protestant converts beginning in the 80's, who came to believe in the slippery slope hypothesis after having things fall apart in the Anglican and Lutheran churches, especially.

 

[Damaris]

Woooah! A woman reading the Gospel!? I think some might say "is outrage!"

Pascha and Agape Vespers, sometimes women read the Gospel if they happen to know another language.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Logical hypothesis, capp! I was Catholic and Anglican in my "former life," and I can attest to some feelings like this whenever a wiff of innovation is felt. I don't see women having the "entitlement" mentality in Orthodoxy thankfully, that they have in the West. In Orthodoxy women tend to want to help where and when they can, but without the idea that they can do anything a man can do...and better! We all know the theological reasoning behind a male priesthood and male altar boys, etc. etc. The West is looking at things through some social justice lens. I just hope we never reach that level of contamination!

In America, the innovation of a reaction against it probably 'kicked in' due to the persistence of ROCOR and the large influx of protestant converts beginning in the 80's, who came to believe in the slippery slope hypothesis after having things fall apart in the Anglican and Lutheran churches, especially.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Logical hypothesis, capp! I was Catholic and Anglican in my "former life," and I can attest to some feelings like this whenever a wiff of innovation is felt. I don't see women having the "entitlement" mentality in Orthodoxy thankfully, that they have in the West. In Orthodoxy women tend to want to help where and when they can, but without the idea that they can do anything a man can do...and better! We all know the theological reasoning behind a male priesthood and male altar boys, etc. etc. The West is looking at things through some social justice lens. I just hope we never reach that level of contamination!

Shouldn't we all have the attitude that we should help whenever and wherever we can?

And no one is "entitled" to the priesthood, are they? Not even those men who complete seminary?

I'm not disagreeing with you. And I know what you mean about feeling a sharp reaction to that whiff of innovation. Maybe I'll be more comfortable after I've been Orthodox a while? But for right now, I feel as though I've discovered a treasure, and as I watch what seems to be the sullying of denominations all around me (and have been watching it for years) ... I can't bear the thought of that happening to the Orthodox Church. Where else would I go???

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Scientology?

I can't bear the thought of that happening to the Orthodox Church. Where else would I go???

 

[gzt]

I think if you're going to have a preference for restricting women from reading the epistle, you do need to consider what bounds, if any, are going to be enforced. Can they read the Hours and other portions of the Horologion texts? Can they read Kathisma from the Psalter? Can they read from the Prophetologion? Can they chant from the Oktoechos, Menaion, etc? The answer in some places and times, by the way, was no to all of them except in perhaps specific circumstances, like women's monasteries. I think there are criteria you can come up with that differentiate the epistle in a liturgy from the others, by the way (and, by the way, I do; I have a mild preference for male epistle readers when available, but the rest don't matter, IMO).

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Well, take my parish for example. There's now me, the tonsured reader we already have who is in his late 50's, and another male parishioner who has gone to our church for a long time but doesn't have really the voice for reading THEN Father adds a teenage girl with a weak voice. I guess my question is why? Why add a fourth reader when 2 was cutting it just fine for years, and 3 is more than PLENTY fine? Why add a female teen? Just odd to me that's all. I have nothing personal against the girl, just don't see the point. And why not ask some other males who have strong voices and like reading?

I think if you're going to have a preference for restricting women from reading the epistle, you do need to consider what bounds, if any, are going to be enforced. Can they read the Hours and other portions of the Horologion texts? Can they read Kathisma from the Psalter? Can they read from the Prophetologion? Can they chant from the Oktoechos, Menaion, etc? The answer in some places and times, by the way, was no to all of them except in perhaps specific circumstances, like women's monasteries. I think there are criteria you can come up with that differentiate the epistle in a liturgy from the others, by the way (and, by the way, I do; I have a mild preference for male epistle readers when available, but the rest don't matter, IMO).