Women - Not Men - Chose to be Gay?

[Yarddog]

Arguably the same goes for gay men, but they remain unattracted to women.

Yes, and no. There are many gay men that show no outward signs of being feminine. They go through life living as regular guys before comning out after many years of marriage. There are also many cases of bi-sexuality in men. But, IMO, not nearly as many as women.

But my point is if our sexual orientation is determined by our brains, they why do lesbians seem partly aroused by men, or straight women aroused by other women?

Go figure, Huh? Women Just kidding.

Yarddog

 

[Texas Lynn]

Yes, and no. There are many gay men that show no outward signs of being feminine.

True. And many lesbians who show no outward sign of being masculine. Gender secondary characteristics like crying or being able to chop down trees are independent of sexual orientation. Some of the most masculine and feminine are gay, gay, gay and some effeminiate men and butchy women are straight, straight, straight.

They go through life living as regular guys before comning out after many years of marriage.

Some do. Women too.

There are also many cases of bi-sexuality in men. But, IMO, not nearly as many as women.

I guess it's how you define it. As far as being sexually active with both genders at the same time period, probably. But over time, maybe not. for instance, I believe the figure is 1/2 of lesbians and 1/3 of gay men are biological parents of children. Now there are more turkeybaster babies than there used to be but not that many.

 

[elephunky]

Some do. Women too.



I guess it's how you define it. As far as being sexually active with both genders at the same time period, probably. But over time, maybe not. for instance, I believe the figure is 1/2 of lesbians and 1/3 of gay men are biological parents of children. Now there are more turkeybaster babies than there used to be but not that many.

I think its easier for womento turn to women after a bad marriage because of the physicality of a same sex relationship. And usually you will find that these women likeboth men and womoen. Its never purely straight or purely gay. Which i think is forgotten in these arguments.

Men dont just come out of a marriage and decide they are gay, you yhave to really want it to be able to get into a same sex relationship for reason i wont point out since its pretty inappropriate contentographic lol.

From what IVe seen in a few cases, these men have denied their feelings for men for the sake of family and friends and fear. They get married, have kids, and they realise that its not right for them, the marriage breaks down and at tht point they say, i cant live a lie anymore. Im coming out. Sorry for the bad grammar lol.

 

[Notedstrangeperson]

Yes, and no. There are many gay men that show no outward signs of being feminine. They go through life living as regular guys before comning out after many years of marriage. There are also many cases of bi-sexuality in men. But, IMO, not nearly as many as women.

True. And many lesbians who show no outward sign of being masculine. Gender secondary characteristics like crying or being able to chop down trees are independent of sexual orientation. Some of the most masculine and feminine are gay, gay, gay and some effeminiate men and butchy women are straight, straight, straight.

I also think social play a strong part in sexuality. For example, if a woman acts in a traditionally male fashion (going to work, wearing trousers, having an interest in mechanics etc.) then she is "liberated".
But if a man acts in a traditionally female fashion (wearing bright elaborate clothes, being careful about cleanliness, even wearing makeup etc.) then he is a "f4gg0t"*. That seems rather unfair.

Perhaps when a man is accused of being homosexual often enough, he begins to think of himself as being gay. To a certain extent women don't seem to have this problem. Oddly, even during the 19th century and even in the Bible, lesbianism isn't condemned anywhere near as much as male homosexuality.


*This word only used for the sake of comparison. Honest . . .

 

[Texas Lynn]

I also think social play a strong part in sexuality. For example, if a woman acts in a traditionally male fashion (going to work, wearing trousers, having an interest in mechanics etc.) then she is "liberated".
But if a man acts in a traditionally female fashion (wearing bright elaborate clothes, being careful about cleanliness, even wearing makeup etc.) then he is a "f4gg0t"*. That seems rather unfair.

Perhaps when a man is accused of being homosexual often enough, he begins to think of himself as being gay. To a certain extent women don't seem to have this problem. Oddly, even during the 19th century and even in the Bible, lesbianism isn't condemned anywhere near as much as male homosexuality.


*This word only used for the sake of comparison. Honest . . .

The Southwestern Native American tribes have well-noted subcultures of men who dress as women called "bedarches" (not sure of spelling) or "people of two spirits" some of which have sex with masculine males. They are respected and honored members of the tribes.

There was an anecdote in Jonathan Katz' Gay American History discussing them where a tourist spoke about them to a Navaho who told him white Americans have more transvestites relatively because so many white American tourists coming to the Rez were women in pants.

 

[BeachedEinstein]

I suppose, as a gay man, I can offer some two cents about orientation as "choice or not".

When I was in Middle School, everyone of course was going crazy about sex, sex, sex. I would talk about it as well, but mostly because everyone else was. Boys were supposed to go after girls, so I thought that's what I was supposed to do. So I did. I tried dating in High School mostly because I wanted to be at the status of "having a girlfriend". It seemed impressive to me. Girls are pretty, no doubt about it, but I found dating and women totally unromantic, and I was very very misogynistic. Obviously, like any High Schooler, I thought that the epitome of being my age was sex, heterosexual sex. I don't really think arousal has anything to do with it. I definitely found men attractive, but I was told that was wrong, so I didn't give any heed to it. I did have sort of a crush on my best friend, Dylan, but I thought that was just because we were good friends and I admired him.

I became really interested in film my Junior and Senior year. I remember seriously checking out Marlon Brando in "A Streetcar Named Desire" and "On the Waterfront" (seriously, who doesn't?). But it wasn't until I went to a music camp that I seriously started being sexually attracted to men. I look back and think "was it just trying to fit in?" (there is a large gay population at this music camp), but it was so much more romantically fulfilling to me, and made me a much happier person with a better attitude about life.

Now, I've thought this over and over in my head. Did I choose it? Was I enforcing it on myself? I don't see any way I could have. I tend to be a very self-hating person. I wouldn't need one more thing to hate myself for. I was raised intensely Christian, and I probably was anti-homosexual when I was younger, but it wasn't until I noticed homosexual feelings in myself that I really started to have problems with my upbringing. I didn't know how to cope with it. Many times I have thought about suicide.

Now, I go to a Christian college, where I feel largely out of place, and I usually have to hide who I am. I suppose I would describe myself as predominantly gay, though I have a couple relationships with women that weren't total hell. I just feel much more gratified in a relationship with a man. I've certainly been in love with a man.

Anyways, I thought a personal anecdote would help with understanding this issue. I honestly do think it is different with other people. I do think that homosexuality and homosexual preference is a predisposition and cannot be helped. I'm sorry if it seemed like I was telling my life story, but I don't know how else to give my personal opinion on it.

With love.

 

[elephunky]

I suppose, as a gay man, I can offer some two cents about orientation as "choice or not".

When I was in Middle School, everyone of course was going crazy about sex, sex, sex. I would talk about it as well, but mostly because everyone else was. Boys were supposed to go after girls, so I thought that's what I was supposed to do. So I did. I tried dating in High School mostly because I wanted to be at the status of "having a girlfriend". It seemed impressive to me. Girls are pretty, no doubt about it, but I found dating and women totally unromantic, and I was very very misogynistic. Obviously, like any High Schooler, I thought that the epitome of being my age was sex, heterosexual sex. I don't really think arousal has anything to do with it. I definitely found men attractive, but I was told that was wrong, so I didn't give any heed to it. I did have sort of a crush on my best friend, Dylan, but I thought that was just because we were good friends and I admired him.

I became really interested in film my Junior and Senior year. I remember seriously checking out Marlon Brando in "A Streetcar Named Desire" and "On the Waterfront" (seriously, who doesn't?). But it wasn't until I went to a music camp that I seriously started being sexually attracted to men. I look back and think "was it just trying to fit in?" (there is a large gay population at this music camp), but it was so much more romantically fulfilling to me, and made me a much happier person with a better attitude about life.

Now, I've thought this over and over in my head. Did I choose it? Was I enforcing it on myself? I don't see any way I could have. I tend to be a very self-hating person. I wouldn't need one more thing to hate myself for. I was raised intensely Christian, and I probably was anti-homosexual when I was younger, but it wasn't until I noticed homosexual feelings in myself that I really started to have problems with my upbringing. I didn't know how to cope with it. Many times I have thought about suicide.

Now, I go to a Christian college, where I feel largely out of place, and I usually have to hide who I am. I suppose I would describe myself as predominantly gay, though I have a couple relationships with women that weren't total hell. I just feel much more gratified in a relationship with a man. I've certainly been in love with a man.

Anyways, I thought a personal anecdote would help with understanding this issue. I honestly do think it is different with other people. I do think that homosexuality and homosexual preference is a predisposition and cannot be helped. I'm sorry if it seemed like I was telling my life story, but I don't know how else to give my personal opinion on it.

With love.

Thank you for your post. I can somewhat understand where you are coming from. I am at the moment trying to figure out myself in that manner. I have always had a secret life of women but pushed it down because I was told its wrong and am now feeling that I pushed myself to be with men because I thought it was the right thing to do. Now im not so sure anymore!

 

[BeachedEinstein]

Thank you for your post. I can somewhat understand where you are coming from. I am at the moment trying to figure out myself in that manner. I have always had a secret life of women but pushed it down because I was told its wrong and am now feeling that I pushed myself to be with men because I thought it was the right thing to do. Now im not so sure anymore!

Thanks!

Well, you can't deny your own feelings. If you are in love with a woman, then that's the way it is. I've come to terms with my attractions, and don't really feel ashamed about them, even though people try to make me feel ashamed of them. Nothing more human than being in love. What aren't you sure about? Feel free to share your feelings. I hope I can help.

With love.

 

[BlackSabb]

• Straight men are aroused by images of women. No suprises there.
• Gay men are aroused by images of men. Again, no surprises there.
• Lesbians are aroused by images of both men AND women.
• Straight women are also aroused by images of both men AND women.

This is simplistic nonsense in a nutshell! I am a 100% straight heterosexual male. Never had a gay tendency in my life-ever (and never will). To say that I am aroused merely by images of women is not true.

I work in the health profession and come into contact with many people during a regular day. And I can say that sometimes I meet very attractive women that I wouldn't touch with the proverbial 10 foot pole. And other women, some young and attractive, some older and still attractive, some not particularly attractive, that I'd easily imagine being involved with.

Something about their overall demeanour really does it for me. I talked to another strongly heterosexual guy at work and he was telling me the same thing. That he occasionally meets some women that are not that particularly attractive but something about the personality and character and overall disposition that he finds really attractive and could easily imagine being with.

This is simplistic male stereotyping that we somehow have no control over our desires at the sight of a pretty woman. I've met many that I'd have nothing to do with.

 

[elephunky]

Thanks!

Well, you can't deny your own feelings. If you are in love with a woman, then that's the way it is. I've come to terms with my attractions, and don't really feel ashamed about them, even though people try to make me feel ashamed of them. Nothing more human than being in love. What aren't you sure about? Feel free to share your feelings. I hope I can help.

With love.

Thats what I think, and I dont agree with certain groups of people expecting us to just supress it.

Just about my orientation in general. this recent realisation has me questioning everything.

 

[epistemaniac]

Arguably the same goes for gay men, but they remain unattracted to women.
But my point is if our sexual orientation is determined by our brains, they why do lesbians seem partly aroused by men, or straight women aroused by other women?



Homosexuality has been show to be heavily (but not totally) determined by our brains, which would mean they we are unable to chose our orientation. Fetishes on the other had develop over time, and we have control over them.
In other words, I think this particular bit of research is asking whether being gay is an orientation or a fetish.

if homosexuality is not totally determined by our brains (whatever that is supposed to mean) then that would mean that we ARE able to to choose our orientation. Since homosexuality is not genetically "determined" (in the sense that there is no such thing as a "gay gene") then homosexuals do in fact choose their orientation, though their reasons for doing so may be and is a whole complex set of reasons which may include some biological issues alongside of environmental factors. As Romans 1 indicates, this is the case.

In the end, whatever their reasons are for doing so, none of those reasons justify the behavior as morally neutral or morally approvable. In other words, homosexuality is sin, and practicing homosexuals will not inherit the kingdom of God per 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (ESV) 9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God." Homosexuality is no "worse" than any other sin, but, it is no better either. Its on the same ground as the other sins listed, so this is not about bashing homosexuals, its simply about being honest about what the Scripture states concerning those who persist in unrepentant sins.

In any case, studies have also shown that homosexual men can be conditioned to not be aroused by images of men. All they have to have is a strong desire to change their behavior/orientation, be willing to do whatever it takes to stop engaging in homosexual activities, and they can change. Regardless, just because a man is aroused by images of other men, this does not in and of itself indicate anything about the morality of the arousal. As someone well said, I suppose a person can be aroused by the picture of a dog, and no doubt pedophiles are aroused by the pictures of children, but in either case, their arousal itself is no indicator of the moral nature of that arousal. All it indicates is the depth of mankind's depravity, which is total. (that one was for you polycarp )


blessings,
ken

 

[epistemaniac]

Either way, they have no standing to Lord it over the rest of us.

just like you have no standing to lord your opinion over Calvinists... IOW, the Calvinist no more "lords it over the rest of" you by sharing their views on doctrinal matters than you are lording it over Calvinists by saying that you disagree with Calvinists by stating your own theological views... so why the double standard? Why are you apparently free to state your views but when Calvinists do so they are 'lording it over" others?

…. and nor can you lord it over others by making your personal subjective experience some kind of norm or standard... I personally have no doubt about my own personal depravity and had not the Lord opened my eyes, taken out my heart of stone and replaced it with a heart of flesh enabling me to believe savingly upon the Lord Jesus, due to my total depravity, I would never have chosen Him had He not chose me. There. Now you have met a Calvinist who holds the same standards concerning depravity to himself as he does to everyone else.

blessings,
ken

 

[BeachedEinstein]

Thats what I think, and I dont agree with certain groups of people expecting us to just supress it.

Just about my orientation in general. this recent realisation has me questioning everything.

Yeah, I definitely don't agree with suppression, either...just leads to self-hatred and -loathing. And really the only "choice" debate in homosexuality is whether you choose to act on your attractions or not. The old cliche of "You can't help who you fall in love with" is pretty much true. Morals have nothing to do with that. I don't see how two adults being in love can be a terrible thing. What's the line from The Matrix: "Being the One is sort of like being in love. No one can tell you you're in love. You just know it. Through and through. Balls to bone."

Anyway, that's just my personal pontifications. It's easy to see how someone who has never had those feelings simply not being able to understand it. I don't understand how anybody I find unattractive finds a partner, but I don't question their love for one another.

And all the stuff about gay-conversion does not work. Sure, you can tell gay people what to do, and with enough guilt and pressure, people will do anything, but that doesn't change who they are. I've certainly put enough pressure on myself over the issue, but it doesn't change a thing. Just my experience.

 

[elephunky]

Yeah, I definitely don't agree with suppression, either...just leads to self-hatred and -loathing. And really the only "choice" debate in homosexuality is whether you choose to act on your attractions or not. The old cliche of "You can't help who you fall in love with" is pretty much true. Morals have nothing to do with that. I don't see how two adults being in love can be a terrible thing. What's the line from The Matrix: "Being the One is sort of like being in love. No one can tell you you're in love. You just know it. Through and through. Balls to bone."

Anyway, that's just my personal pontifications. It's easy to see how someone who has never had those feelings simply not being able to understand it. I don't understand how anybody I find unattractive finds a partner, but I don't question their love for one another.

And all the stuff about gay-conversion does not work. Sure, you can tell gay people what to do, and with enough guilt and pressure, people will do anything, but that doesn't change who they are. I've certainly put enough pressure on myself over the issue, but it doesn't change a thing. Just my experience.

Exactly, thats how i feel about it but I can never put it into words lol. Very well said

 

[epistemaniac]

Thanks!

Well, you can't deny your own feelings. If you are in love with a woman, then that's the way it is. I've come to terms with my attractions, and don't really feel ashamed about them, even though people try to make me feel ashamed of them. Nothing more human than being in love. What aren't you sure about? Feel free to share your feelings. I hope I can help.

With love.

of course you can deny your feelings... people do it all the time... Christians need to do it every time they have an inclination to sin.... a person may feel as if they are so angry that they could just kill someone... but just because they feel this way doesn't make it right... a person may strongly desire a certain car, but if it doesn't belong to them then even though they may feel like stealing it, they ought not... so whether you feel shame or not is really irrelavent... you are not the standard as to what ought to induce shame, ie, what sin is... and what shame we ought to experience as a result of that sin is defined, not by our relativistic inner emotions which change with the passing of cultural trends, but rather by an absolute moral standard and guide. I hope you never help others "feel good about their sin" because in doing so, you are acting as a teacher, and teachers are going to be subject to a greater level of judgment.
James 3:1 (ESV) 1 Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater strictness.

And many will thus fall under Paul's condemnation concerning the encouragement towards sin:
Romans 1:24-32 (ESV)
24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen. 26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; 27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error. 28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. 29 They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31 foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32 Though they know God’s decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them."

blessings,
ken

 

[epistemaniac]

Yeah, I definitely don't agree with suppression, either...just leads to self-hatred and -loathing. And really the only "choice" debate in homosexuality is whether you choose to act on your attractions or not. The old cliche of "You can't help who you fall in love with" is pretty much true. Morals have nothing to do with that. I don't see how two adults being in love can be a terrible thing. What's the line from The Matrix: "Being the One is sort of like being in love. No one can tell you you're in love. You just know it. Through and through. Balls to bone."

Anyway, that's just my personal pontifications. It's easy to see how someone who has never had those feelings simply not being able to understand it. I don't understand how anybody I find unattractive finds a partner, but I don't question their love for one another.

And all the stuff about gay-conversion does not work. Sure, you can tell gay people what to do, and with enough guilt and pressure, people will do anything, but that doesn't change who they are. I've certainly put enough pressure on myself over the issue, but it doesn't change a thing. Just my experience.

of course gay conversion works... before the gays engaged in enough political lobbying and bullying such that the DSM changed homosexuality from being a mental illness there were lots of case studies where people changed their sexual inclinations, there was at least 80 years of research and case studies showing this to be true.... while change did not happen 100% of the time, no therapy for any disorder was successful 100% of the time... and if 100% success were necessary in order to to continue therapy, then psychiatry and counseling as a whole needs to shut down because it has never had a 100% success rate in changing any behavior....

...and even today, with the advent of even more strident efforts by the gay community to stifle conservative Christians and secular psychiatrists who deem homosexuality to be unhealthy for various reasons, ministries like Exodus, Genesis Counseling and NARTH prove that change is possible. Even secular counseling shows that change is possible, but again, political efforts by gays has all but shut down the efforts of psychiatrists and counselors to work with gays who want to leave their destructive lifestyles. see NARTH President is Given the Last Word on the Gay and Lesbian Task Force Report for more on the political maneuvering within the APA on the issue of change...

Gays and gay supporters have repeated the lies "sexual orientation is genetic" or "you can't change a person's sexual orientation" so often that unfortunately people have in the main, accepted their lies as truth, proving the adage 2 Timothy 4:3-4 (ESV) 3 For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, 4 and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths."

Paul reminds us that even within the culture he was in, a culture much like ours today, change in lifestyle was possible:

1 Corinthians 6:9-11 (ESV) 9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Since Jesus is the same, yesterday, today and forever, change is still possible. To deny this is to deny the power of God to change people's lives no matter their addictions, orientations and inclinations.

blessings,
ken

 

[BeachedEinstein]

"...prove that change is possible..."

Tell that to the gay teens who commit suicide.

You seem to want to make conservative Christians the victim here. Such is not the case, I'm afraid. And I know sexual orientation is not genetic, but that doesn't mean sexual orientation isn't predetermined.

And seeing as humans learn primarily by their experience, and seeing as I have personal experience with this, I'm afraid I'll stick to my own word. I have never met any homosexual for whom suppression and "changing" was a good and healthy process. It's destructive.

 

[elephunky]

"...prove that change is possible..."

Tell that to the gay teens who commit suicide.

You seem to want to make conservative Christians the victim here. Such is not the case, I'm afraid. And I know sexual orientation is not genetic, but that doesn't mean sexual orientation isn't predetermined.

And seeing as humans learn primarily by their experience, and seeing as I have personal experience with this, I'm afraid I'll stick to my own word. I have never met any homosexual for whom suppression and "changing" was a good and healthy process. It's destructive.

I dont see how homosexuality is genetic at all. And think of it this way - not all diseases are genetic...does that mean to say they chose to have it affect them??? Of course Im not saying that its a disease but the logic that if it isnt genetic then its a decision is pretty stupid.

 

[Nathan45]

I've had a lot of personal experience being aroung lesbians and would agree that the percentage of women who can swing both ways is far greater than men.

this could just be cultural. lesbianism is far more socially acceptable than male homosexuality. Guys who could "swing both ways" would probably just stick to women.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

I dont see how homosexuality is genetic at all.

If it's not genetic, the conditioning that causes it happens pretty early. I knew in third grade which of my fellow students were gay, and it turned out later that I was right. I don't think I'm that good a guesser.