Women In Leadership?

[peterandrewj]

Again we see another scripture saying that the woman should not teach and not be in a place of authority or power over a man. Instead she should be quiet and in obedience. She is to be in subjection.

Jbear, you've been grappling with this issue for a long time, and I don't expect to change your position overnight. But I think I need to say why I disagree..

The main objection to women being pastors and teachers primarily stem from 1 Timothy where Paul says to let the woman learn in silence and to not usurp authority over the man.

I see a problem with applying that to all women two verses down:

1 Timothy 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

How could “the woman” be saved by child bearing if Paul was not speaking to married women? And who is they which is necessary to continue in faith and charity if not husband and wife?

So if Paul is speaking about husband and wife, then women can pastor and teach as long as her head is covered.

The only barrier I see in the church concerning women is that of Bishop/Elder where eligibility includes ruling over one’s house.

Bottom line: Jesus made us all kings and priests….a royal nation and holy priesthood. In the Old Testament women were not priests but today they offer up spiritual sacrifices unto God.

If Jesus opened the door, let's encourage them to go through.

 

[NorrinRadd]

Hi NorrinRadd of faith charismatic. May you have gifts of the invisible sort.

I have a lot of sympathies for "Pentecostal" also, but their traditional definitions of "baptism in the Spirit" being "separate and subsequent" relative to regeneration/rebirth, and of "speaking in tongues" being the "initial outward evidence" of Spirit-baptism prevent me from choosing that Faith icon. I really fall somewhere between "Charismatic" and "Pentecostal," which is one of the reasons "Pneumatic" is part of my caption.

IIRC, there is a thread at the Conservative Christian area that is a wee bit longer than this thread about women and leadership. I suspect it is getting a challenging run. I shall have to find out how my denomination is doing as they were going to debate ordination of women at the national conference this past weekend (true it is still 11:23 PM on Sunday, PDT).

I infer from some of your comments below that you are Lutheran, and apparently not ELCA, since they have been ordaining women for some years now.

This lovely lady, for instance.

I am still trying to develop a mood. Do not know how to do that and it seems the directions sometimes don't work too. I guess that your type of "cheeky" is the other cheeky. For the record, I am 54 too.

I just read and studied 2 Chronicles 33:1-25. In The Lutheran Study Bible (ESV), I find a linked note for 2 Kings 21:19-26:

"King Amon rejects God's ways and walks in the ways of evil King Manasseh, his father. Today, do not simply accept the antics of evil rulers, but also do not read this passage as a blessing for overthrowing your government!"

The Lutheran church is so straightforward about authority! Thanks! Of course, if it weren't for the Lutherans, where would the Protestants be now? Still Catholics? This, by the way, is good hearted fun among brethren, not insulting or name-calling.

With all this talk of Lutherans and insults, I am impelled to once again post this favored link.

Is a "Fideist" someone who promotes the leap of faith similar to Soren Kierkegaard? Or, someone with perhaps better Lutheran credentials who believes in salvation solely through faith (by Grace). Perhaps the "by Grace" is neither parenthetical nor optional.

I mean "fideist" in the sense that I "believe" even when it doesn't necessarily make proper rational sense -- things like God being "three" and "one," Jesus being truly God and truly flesh, Jesus being the same yesterday, today, and forever, even though at a point in time He "became" flesh, etc.

I got the term "Biblicist" from Craig Keener. He uses the term in this interview, but I'm not sure that's where I picked it up.

By "Antinomian," I mean that I believe that the *entirety* of the Law of the Obsolete Covenant was abolished, nailed to the Cross, hung on the Tree; that only those Commandments that were reinstated under the New and better Covenant (Love God, which now takes the form of believe in Jesus; and Love one another / Love your neighbor as yourself) universally apply; and that only the first is necessary for salvation, with the second then following as a result. IOW, we neither "get saved" nor "stay saved" based on deeds we perform or avoid.

 

[abysmul]

Sorry, I admit I'm late to reading this thread...

Has anyone posted what Christ Himself ever said about women teaching/leading in the church?

 

[peterandrewj]

Sorry, I admit I'm late to reading this thread...

Has anyone posted what Christ Himself ever said about women teaching/leading in the church?

Welcome and don't hesitate to share your thoughts.


Jesus didn't say anything about the offices in the church. Paul said...

Ephesians 4:8 When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.....And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers.

Back then everyone in the church had something from God to edify the body - a psalm, a doctrine, a tongue, a revelation, an interpretation. Anyone sharing/prophesying was considered a prophet. They would speak and another would judge. The problem was with a wife judging the word of her husband to whom the law commanded her to be under obedience. For this reason Paul said she should be silent.

But today people say all women should be silent. It's truly a disservice to the body, and in some cases an outright attack on the church.

 

[abysmul]

Welcome and don't hesitate to share your thoughts.


Jesus didn't say anything about the offices in the church.

I couldn't find that He had, thanks. Therein lies trouble for so many, Jesus was silent on the subject but others offered what... opinion, or direct commands from Christ... and to everyone, or to specific individuals, or groups?

This will be an issue that will continue to cause division in the church until the second coming of our Lord.

 

[seeingeyes]

I couldn't find that He had, thanks. Therein lies trouble for so many, Jesus was silent on the subject but others offered what... opinion, or direct commands from Christ... and to everyone, or to specific individuals, or groups?

This will be an issue that will continue to cause division in the church until the second coming of our Lord.

Yes. This very much depends on whether one reads Paul in light of Christ, or Christ in light of Paul.

 

[Norah63]

Another late arrival. Just reading everyone posts.
There are very few big time women preachers (teachers). Lots in the denominations of every stripe.
Did that come with the liberal move or pentecostal?
And the church today is no where close to the early church pattern, so as a woman I
take good truth where I hear it.
And prefer the scriptures guide of the men in leadership of the church (as well as the family).
Our society would be much better off imho.

 

[peterandrewj]

There are very few big time women preachers (teachers). Lots in the denominations of every stripe.
Did that come with the liberal move or pentecostal?.

It's a good question. When it comes to men ordaining men for ministry, Rome held control and women were disallowed.

Maybe women took to the pulpit with the advent of Protestants? I don't know the history but I'm glad for their liberty today.

 

[ALoveDivine]

The bible clearly prohibits women in the pastorate or in teaching ministries. Women are not to hold authority over men, are not to teach men, and are not to be pastors. This is made crystal clear in scripture, and one would really have to twist the word of God to conclude otherwise.

Ladies, we love you deeply as sisters in Christ, but God has ordained different roles for the genders and we must respect that with humility and obedience. We are all equal before God, but our roles are different.

We cannot let the cultural motifs of this age so influence our churches as to lead us to directly defy the word of God.

 

[NorrinRadd]

The bible clearly prohibits women in the pastorate or in teaching ministries. Women are not to hold authority over men, are not to teach men, and are not to be pastors. This is made crystal clear in scripture, and one would really have to twist the word of God to conclude otherwise.

Ladies, we love you deeply as sisters in Christ, but God has ordained different roles for the genders and we must respect that with humility and obedience. We are all equal before God, but our roles are different.

We cannot let the cultural motifs of this age so influence our churches as to lead us to directly defy the word of God.

So as to avoid reworking ground that has already been plowed, I invite you to take the time to go back through this thread and consider the give-and-take. After that, I would be happy to engage you on any particular points you care to raise.

 

[NorrinRadd]

Another late arrival. Just reading everyone posts.
There are very few big time women preachers (teachers). Lots in the denominations of every stripe.
Did that come with the liberal move or pentecostal?

It was present in the Wesleyan revival in the 1700s.

It was present in the early days of Evangelicalism in the 1800s.


According to Catholic scholar Gary Macy, "ordination" for men and women was very similar if not equivalent for the first thousand years or more of Church History, but then was redefined.

And the church today is no where close to the early church pattern, so as a woman I take good truth where I hear it.

And prefer the scriptures guide of the men in leadership of the church (as well as the family).

Our society would be much better off imho.

If you have continued reading through the thread, you have seen there is considerable disagreement concerning what the Scriptures actually say about the "early church pattern," and who should and should not be in "leadership."

 

[Norah63]

By early church pattern I meant in many ways. Church is no longer community of
all things common, gifts in operation, all offices present, ect..
Not just the fact that there were no women in the twelve.
So for me it doesnt matter what a woman wants to call herself, or be ordained to, I'm not offended
for any of these things.
Some church has sort of emasculated the men in ways that they would rather just let the women
take over.
Just saying that a christian (man or woman) can be used of the Lord, without a title
As a woman anything that Father God wants me to do I can do without an office or certificate.

 

[jbearnolimits]

Jbear, you've been grappling with this issue for a long time, and I don't expect to change your position overnight. But I think I need to say why I disagree..

The main objection to women being pastors and teachers primarily stem from 1 Timothy where Paul says to let the woman learn in silence and to not usurp authority over the man.

I see a problem with applying that to all women two verses down:

1 Timothy 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

How could “the woman” be saved by child bearing if Paul was not speaking to married women? And who is they which is necessary to continue in faith and charity if not husband and wife?

This is a good reply to the question originally asked. I like how you are calmly sharing the scripture and letting that be your foundation in answering.

With that said I think it would be good to point out that the verses you mention are right after Paul speaks of women being sober, modest, and having good works. It is also after speaking of Adam and Eve.

The real meat of the verse follows after he says she will be saved in childbearing. That is when he says "if they continue in faith and charity," charity is another word for love for those who may not know, "and holiness with sobriety."

I think if we look closely at the wording we can see that when he says they, he is speaking of women. Because a few verses before 15 he was speaking of women as a whole, and then in verse 11 he said the word woman. In verse 12 he says a woman. This seems clear to me that he is using the word to address women as a whole on an individual level.

This makes sense if one can look closely at the words. It may be more helpful (and here is where I will show that I am not afraid of other translations as I have been accused of) to look at the NLT, or even the NIV. They word it in a more modern way.

But this did bring up an interesting thought. It seems like everyone is going to the extreme in this. Either one side says a woman should have her mouth glued shut, or one side says she should pastor and rule over anyone and everyone.

I don't know if anyone noticed my final thoughts on it in the first few posts. I said that women CAN teach, they just should not rule over men. I think it would be horrible if we men never listened to women! Think of all the homes that would be filled with dead animal heads on the walls lol! Women keep us men from going insane!

But the real issue isn't even about women being in leadership. The real issue is about women being modest, sober, gentle, full of faith, love, and holiness. There are a lot of verses that speak of women being soft spoken and yet carrying power in their words.

I live in the south and we have a lot of loud and manly women here. But it is RARE that I see the qualities of a godly woman in such.

I wanted to point out too that someone said it is unfair that we don't teach men to be like men should be and that we focus on women. I totally agree! Men need to be taught how to be a godly man. If they were, then God would not have to shame them with women ruling over them.

 

[Andrea411]

What I see is often the issue is the scriptures are taken as a bunch of one liners instead of a story line. We forget there were no chapters or punctuation. The transcribers added these. Look at the whole purpose of the book, why, who it was written to - it helps to see the intent.
Paul was also teaching to follow the law of the land. Don't get involved in arguments that would hurt the gospel. That is the situation today still.
If it would divide a denomination to ordain women - then what women following Christ would want that? But if they are called to preach, it may be they need to leave that denomination and go where God is calling them. If the Lord is working within a body of believers, be sensitive to that situation.

I have never seen a good situation where women were "USURPING" power from men that was good but you need to see what that word means. That does not mean men should usurp power... the times were different when Paul was writing this...
u·surp
take (a position of power or importance) illegally or by force.
"Richard usurped the throne"
synonyms: seize, take over, take possession of, take, commandeer, wrest, assume, expropriate More
take the place of (someone in a position of power) illegally: supplant.
"the Hanoverian dynasty had usurped the Stuarts"
synonyms: oust, overthrow, remove, topple, unseat, depose, dethrone; More
archaic
encroach or infringe upon (someone's rights).
"the Church had usurped upon the domain of the state"

Voting is not usurping but there are times when issues, even fair ones should not be brought up if they would hinder the gospel from going forth. As I said before, we should not take women as missionaries (to men); preaching into countries where women are not allowed to be seen without their husbands etc etc. i.e.: Afghanistan, S.A. and other Middle Eastern countries.
In the USA, UK and Europe the opposite situation has taken place. Women are being turned away bc they think God is a sexist. They have not had a chance to have their hearts converted bc they have been offended at the outset by man's rules, not God's.
God bless, andrea

 

[Norah63]

Let the older women teach the younger women. This is scripture of great value.
In todays world where youth rules, that verse needs to be taught a bit more.
Womens lib has done much dis-service to family and church alike.
A woman with Christ as her head has great leadership.

 

[peterandrewj]

I think if we look closely at the wording we can see that when he says they, he is speaking of women. Because a few verses before 15 he was speaking of women as a whole, and then in verse 11 he said the word woman. In verse 12 he says a woman. This seems clear to me that he is using the word to address women as a whole on an individual level.

Thanks Jbear! And I pray God bless your ministry, for the harvest is ripe.

I see what you're saying about Paul speaking to all women and will consider it further. I believe we're on the same page, and just sharing viewpoints; praise God

I don't think Paul was giving any commandments of his own. I think he was basing his instruction on the commandments of God. And I see a commandment requiring the woman to be in obedience to her husband, and usurping his authority by ruling over him would be a transgression. However I see no commandment where all men have authority over all women, to the extent no woman can rule over any man.

Nevertheless, I will pray about it and wait on God. At this time I have no problem honoring a woman full of the Holy Ghost with my submission, for the work of the ministry (even as a Pastor). If that dishonors my head, I'm sure God will reveal it.

God bless you this day of salvation, and glory to our Lord Jesus.

 

[peterandrewj]

Let the older women teach the younger women. This is scripture of great value.
In todays world where youth rules, that verse needs to be taught a bit more.
Womens lib has done much dis-service to family and church alike.
A woman with Christ as her head has great leadership.

I think people esteem these offices in the church above measure. I get the feeling if the Pastor says pray three times a day they feel compelled to obey; or if the Pastor says walk this way, they feel compelled to obey; like the "yes father that is true" response in the catholic church. And a man giving a woman rule over him like that just feels wrong?

For me, whether Pastor or Teacher, my obedience is limited to the church. I'm led of God and taught of God, and Pastor/Teacher only labors with God in it. I do not submit my mind and will to these leaders, and if a woman is anointed with these helps, I will rejoice for having found Him (God) whom I love.

 

[Gunny]

We forget there were no chapters or punctuation.

Amen.

 

[Andrea411]

Let the older women teach the younger women. This is scripture of great value.
In todays world where youth rules, that verse needs to be taught a bit more.
Womens lib has done much dis-service to family and church alike.
A woman with Christ as her head has great leadership.

A man with Christ as His head has great leadership. With freedom comes responsibility. Women were not allowed to vote till 1920. Would you take that from them?

Most of the laws that we Christians think women's lib brought were brought up in a male lead Congress, passed by a male President and became the law of the land through a 100% male Supreme Court.
Please don't lay sin at the feet of only women or women's lib. Women should not have to fight for their rights, they are full citizens of the USA and should receive them as such.
The right to privacy - that lead to Roe vs Wade is not in the constitution, there is NO right to privacy. The unborn should have the right to life and men are still in control of that, no matter what people want to say. Women should not have to walk behind any man, she should be able to walk next to and run ahead if able.

Personally, I think most of these men (politicians and judges) thought they could get away with their own indiscretions by legalizing abortion. I can't imagine they realized a million babies a year would be killed. But they know now and do nothing.

Men and women call evil good and good evil, that is not a sexist issue. Sin is sin male or female.

 

[Floyd20]

If we must wait for a pure and holy woman to arrive to be Pastor, this side of eternity, we may have quite the wait. Solomon considered it a challenge to find the "ideal" woman. Maybe he was a bit much of an idealist though. Let us not set the standards for female pastors above that for male pastors. I kind of indicated too previously that sex and gender role socialization make some people less tolerant of female leaders because it can seem confusing and maybe even seem "demonic."

New things can be more complicated and confusing and require more education. For example, the federalist system in politics is complicated and requires a better education for citizens to participate adequately. I do not believe that the federalist system caused the American civil war, but it may well have contributed. This does not make federalism inherently evil.

Likewise, a pluralist church. Or an intentionally multicultural church may be more complicated and require better education, but it is not inherently evil. Having female leaders in a church is modern but not ungodly.

Perhaps that is not a Scriptural argument. But the letter kills and the Spirit gives Life. If only Huldah the prophetess spoke the Word of God, that would be sufficient for me to accept a female speaking in church with authority. For that matter, no disrespect to pastors of either sex, if only one donkey spoke the Word of God, I would be okay with a Spirit-led donkey as a pastor.