Women Deacons

[KatherineS]

The role of deaconesses was to baptize naked women. But since no one today gets baptized naked deaconesses are no longer needed.

If you want to make the case that the female diaconate is not currently needed, I'm happy to take the discussion from there. The Church determined for a long time that the male diaconate was not needed except as a brief transition for priestly candidates but recently moved to restore the office.

 

[Struggling Sinner]

If you want to make the case that the female diaconate is not currently needed, I'm happy to take the discussion from there. The Church determined for a long time that the male diaconate was not needed except as a brief transition for priestly candidates but recently moved to restore the office.

The role of the "deaconess" was to baptize naked women. Even if naked baptism came back into the Church women religious would be able to do that for women without having to change the name of their religious vocation. But there would be no ordination since ordination was never a part of the role of the "deaconess".

 

[AvilaSurfer]

There is no such thing as a woman deacon. There never has been. There never will be. No matter how many times you say the same thing over and over and over and over again, it does not make it true. But you have fun increasing your post count.

 

[KatherineS]

There is no such thing as a woman deacon. There never has been.

So what was St. Phoebe?

 

[Davidnic]

A deaconess. How are you still not getting the difference.

 

[KatherineS]

A deaconess. How are you still not getting the difference.

The Greek uses no suffix to the word deacon when applied to St. Phoebe. Greek nouns have male and female tenses like many languages.

Phoebe was as much as a deacon as the Blessed Mother was a Jew.

++++++++

 

[Anhelyna]

This is just going round and round in circles

 

[Davidnic]

The Greek uses no suffix to the word deacon when applied to St. Phoebe. Greek nouns have male and female tenses like many languages.

Phoebe was as much as a deacon as the Blessed Mother was a Jew.

++++++++

I do read and write greek thank you very much. And actually the word used for her in most manuscripts is translated various ways: Deacons, Deaconess and Servant.

Your translation argument is very weak actually if someone actually knows Greek. And which translation are you using? What original source? Provide it.

You are aware the word used for her is a second declension noun so there are masculine and feminine ending issues with it. So your argument about masculine and feminine is not linguistically valid when referring to the office holder. Many scholars have pointed this out. So that is one against your argument.

Also since it is used 29 times in Scriptures and is equally translated as servant and other words in those passages...your argument actually means nothing on the difference between deacon and deaconess. Since I can equally argue that it is not even calling her a deacon. I am not saying that, she was historically a deaconess (as other early Church sources show is the title). So again, the argument you are trying is weak at best.

The knowledge of the office being Deaconess is from other early Church documents that make it clear.

You also realize, I am sure, that the word also means to kick up dust and refers to a messenger and she was delivering the Letter to the Romans. So there is that too. From context of what she was doing she could easily be called a messenger servant. So we have to look to the other documents and councils of the early Church. Which say the office is deaconess. And, I think has been pointed out over ten times...was not allowed to perform any of the duties special to a male deacon or priest.

Keep shooting at the fictional target though.

 

[Davidnic]

This is just going round and round in circles

Threads like this often do.

 

[Anhelyna]

I know

 

[KatherineS]

And the Blessed Mother was not a Jew, but a Jewess but that standard.

 

[AvilaSurfer]

How about this? How about you hold your breath until the Catholic Church ordains ya some women folk?

 

[Davidnic]

And the Blessed Mother was not a Jew, but a Jewess but that standard.

No. And now you are really reaching. That's not how the languages work. Jew is also the name of the race as well as the male gendered subset. That can not be applied to the word deacon. And it also can not be logically applied in English either.

What you are doing now is not even grasping at straws. You are painting straws in a wall that have no depth or reason and trying to drink from them.

The documents, including the same one the ritual is from, are clear...and early councils agree. A deaconess was not permitted to perform those things belonging to a deacon or priest. That makes the role of deaconess not the equal of deacon. So deaconess is the term, not female deacon. That along with dozens of other points from multiple posters have caused your arguments (that twist and half present the ancient sources) to plunge to the ground like they are skeet with hundred pound weights on them.

But you repeat, repeat and repeat but refute none of it. While your points are constantly refuted.

And the thread goes on and on like a cross country road trip with people singing the song that never ends.

It went from funny, to sad to even sadder and back out the other end to comical again. And everyone sees it.

The thread is not in violation so keep shooting and missing. But the arguments on the pro side are becoming pure sophistry and desperation.

 

[Davidnic]

Well off for the rest of the weekend. I am sure this thread will have more repeats than the Threes Company all the time channel by the time I come back.

 

[Dylan Michael]

If you want to make the case that the female diaconate is not currently needed, I'm happy to take the discussion from there. The Church determined for a long time that the male diaconate was not needed except as a brief transition for priestly candidates but recently moved to restore the office.

Wait.

Before Vatican II, there were permanent deacons.
They were called priests.
A priest or even bishop could act as a deacon or Subdeacon during solemn mass. All he had to do is wear the proper vestments and preform the proper rituals. With the Advent of the Permanent diaconate, this was no longer allowed.
Even today, (some) bishops wear a Dalmatic under their Chasuble during mass to show that they have the fullness of the priesthood.

 

[WarriorAngel]

If you want to make the case that the female diaconate is not currently needed, I'm happy to take the discussion from there. The Church determined for a long time that the male diaconate was not needed except as a brief transition for priestly candidates but recently moved to restore the office.

What are you talking about??

Deacons have always been around. It never died off - it didnt go away and there is no recent restoration. Besides having them my whole life time [married deacons] - i know many who have been deacons for many years previous to my birth.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Well off for the rest of the weekend. I am sure this thread will have more repeats than the Threes Company all the time channel by the time I come back.

 

[WarriorAngel]

And the Blessed Mother was not a Jew, but a Jewess but that standard.

She was the first Christian.

 

[KatherineS]

What are you talking about??

Deacons have always been around. It never died off - it didnt go away and there is no recent restoration. Besides having them my whole life time [married deacons] - i know many who have been deacons for many years previous to my birth.

I have no idea how old you are. For much of my life, the only deacons in the Latin Church were transitional of men preparing for the priesthood, who spent a year or in some cases only a few hours as a deacon.

 

[WarriorAngel]

I have no idea how old you are. For much of my life, the only deacons in the Latin Church were transitional of men preparing for the priesthood, who spent a year or in some cases only a few hours as a deacon.

When a child - our Deacon where i grew up was married and he was at our Church forever and he lived down the street from us and i played with his kids... he was like 40 something back then.

Deacons are in scriptures - St Stephen the 1st martyr was a Deacon.
AND i add - priests [presbyters] also existed and i dont think there were seminaries.

Deaconess only came into existence when baptism was brought inside on a regular basis.. [yes sprinkling occurred according to the Apostolic constitution - Didache]
However; St Jerome i believe spoke of them - which was 300 + years later - when necessity caused their use.

They certainly do not exist in scriptures, nor do women priests... nor women teachers in the Church.

Katherine ask me some stuff - i am studying history - and my Deacon [who is married - lifelong Deacon] teaches more classes on Sunday and i cannot find you an answer in my book - and David's are not satisfactory - i will get you the answers. Tho David knows plenty about Catholicism... and has information at his disposal working in a library.

Deaconess - were novel in principal borne of necessity for one time period in the Church.

They are nothing more than helpers to the Deacons - who are helpers to the priests. They only assisted for the purpose of modesty - and modesty alone.