Women Deacons

[WarriorAngel]

Agreed. Some Church dogma seemed to be discerned over time, such as the Sacrament of Confirmation and the infallibility of the Pope when speaking from the Chair of Peter.

The sacrament was never discerned - in how to practice it - the West maintains the Bishops position in doing so - as they do for ordinations...

Thats how the split in time occurred. Besides the Apostles later confirming those who were baptized - it 'became' a union at baptism - not the other way around.
However; putting it together as one time for the sacraments of initiation - baptism, confirmation, Eucharist - was a novel idea compared to Apostolic times - the timing doesnt matter - but that they are received.

The split of time came when the Bishops were unable to keep up with the demands of confirming at each baptism - which baptism can be done by priests.
So the time they could do it kept extending. In the East the Bishops just authorize the priests to do it. The West maintained the Bishop himself do it. Just as only Bishops could ever ordain.

Giving authority to priests is ok... but the earlier Church it was always reserved for Bishops.

There was never a discernment of the sacrament itself - but more or less who could do it.

 

[WarriorAngel]

The Church is all the faithful. And the Holy Spirit guides us all. But there are special Charisms of leadership given to some.

The Magisterium is the teaching authority of the Church and that is not vested in the laity.

The Holy Spirit will not lead the Magisterium to change things like the matter of Sacraments. There are dogmatic things from Scripture and Tradition that it is impossible to change. To represent inline with ancient source...of course. We do that. But not change.

When people refer to the Church it is all the faithful, but it is also..when referring to Dogma and Teaching referring to the Magisterium, that has the authority to teach and authorize to others (theologians and such) to teach.

The faithful are not without a part in all this, it is cooperative in enacting things. And essential to the practical success of living out Dogma.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Every word of the above that David wrote is true.



O God the Holy and Almighty, who sanctified women through the birth in the flesh of Your only-begottrn Son and our God from the Virgin; and bestowed the grace and advent of Your Holy Spirit not to men alone, but also to women, look now, Lord, upon this Your servant and call her to the work of Your diaconate. Send down upon her the abudent gifts of Your Holy Spirit. Preserve her in your orthodox faith, in blameless conduct, always fullfilling her ministry according to Your pleasure; because to You is due all honor, glory and worship, to the Father, and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit. Amen.

Her ministry was simple - and had nothing to do with her teaching anyone.
Servitude and assistance to the priests at baptism or even funerals [disrobing the female dead and dressing them.

That is 'all' it is.

 

[KatherineS]

Her ministry was simple - and had nothing to do with her teaching anyone.
Servitude and assistance to the priests at baptism or even funerals [disrobing the female dead and dressing them.

That is 'all' it is.

As was the ministry of male deacons.

 

[Rhamiel]

As was the ministry of male deacons.

I thought that in the Bible there is referance to the Deacons being in charge of handing out money to the widows and orphans?
that some of the greek converts were being looked over by the Jewish presbiters so greek deacons were established to help make it more fair?

 

[KatherineS]

I thought that in the Bible there is referance to the Deacons being in charge of handing out money to the widows and orphans?

There is. Along with a reference to the deacon Phoebe.

that some of the greek converts were being looked over by the Jewish presbiters so greek deacons were established to help make it more fair?

Yes. St. Phoebe was likely Greek.

 

[Root of Jesse]

There is. Along with a reference to the deacon Phoebe.




Yes. St. Phoebe was likely Greek.

Phoebe was certainly a minister, but it's unclear what her role was in the Church, given that Paul also says that women should be silent during worship. That would preclude Phoebe doing any ministry that a deacon does in the liturgy. At any rate, it's unclear how she could be a deacon and still be silent during worship...

 

[KatherineS]

Phoebe was certainly a minister, but it's unclear what her role was in the Church, given that Paul also says that women should be silent during worship. That would preclude Phoebe doing any ministry that a deacon does in the liturgy. At any rate, it's unclear how she could be a deacon and still be silent during worship...

The liturgical role of the deacon was a much later development. My friend Rhamiel alludes to this.

 

[Struggling Sinner]

Phoebe was certainly a minister, but it's unclear what her role was in the Church, given that Paul also says that women should be silent during worship. That would preclude Phoebe doing any ministry that a deacon does in the liturgy. At any rate, it's unclear how she could be a deacon and still be silent during worship...

Great point!

 

[Root of Jesse]

The liturgical role of the deacon was a much later development. My friend Rhamiel alludes to this.

I would say, based on Scripture, that the role of proclaiming the Word is very evident, with Stephen and Philip both proclaiming scripture and explaining it. That's a deacon's role in liturgy.

I understand that the diaconate became a vestigial role after an early council, so there were only transitional deacons, and that Scripture was defined about the same time, so it's not really evident. But the deacon today proclaims the Gospel and homily, then assists at the Eucharist, which is seen as doing what the first deacons did.

 

[KatherineS]

. But the deacon today proclaims the Gospel and homily, then assists at the Eucharist, which is seen as doing what the first deacons did.

The diaconate training in this diocese says that the liturgical role is not primary, but a ministry of service is the core of the diaconal charism. There is no evidence that the early deacons had the liturgical role they do today.

 

[Root of Jesse]

The diaconate training in this diocese says that the liturgical role is not primary, but a ministry of service is the core of the diaconal charism. There is no evidence that the early deacons had the liturgical role they do today.

Service to the Church is the core of being a deacon, but the authority is through laying on of hands by the bishop-ordination. Proclaiming the Word and teaching the faithful are part of that service. Liturgy is the primary place where those are done. Since Paul tells us that women should remain silent during the liturgy, it follows that women could not serve all the functions of a deacon.

All of that aside, deacons are chosen by the Holy Spirit. It really doesn't matter if a man (or a woman) wants to be a deacon. The discernment process is 5-6 years more or less continuously, after which a man who wants, with all his heart, to be a deacon may get passed on for whatever reason, even at the moment when he is face down on the ground before the altar.

But at issue is ordination. A deacon is ordained. Women cannot be ordained.

 

[KatherineS]

Service to the Church is the core of being a deacon,

true.

but the authority is through laying on of hands

Which is how women were ordained as deacons in the early church

Proclaiming the Word and teaching the faithful are part of that service. Liturgy is the primary place where those are done.

A place. Not the primary place, and particularly not in the early Church. Even the later church. Remember the sermon was an optional part of the Mass until Vatican II. One of the demands of Luther was that there be sermons at Mass.

So we have the deacon Phoebe. May she and all holy deacons pray for us from heaven.

 

[Struggling Sinner]

Which is how women were ordained as deacons in the early church

You haven't provided any evidence of this. How long do you want to continue to beat this dead horse?

 

[Esdra]

How do you know this? Where you there? The Catholic Church was there, and there is nothing in the history of the Church to suggest that the "deaconesses" were ordained if that's what you are trying to get at. If you don't want to be a nun but want to serve in the community why don't you volunteer to be a worker with Catholic Charities or some other Catholic charitable organization instead of just sitting around complaining about what you can't do?

Or study theology and become a lay-minister?
When the priest or deacon isn't there, you would even be allowed to do a Liturgy of the Word!
And what you'd always be allowed to do is to help distributing the Holy Communion. (And that even without a full study of theology.)

 

[Esdra]

The liturgical role of the deacon was a much later development. My friend Rhamiel alludes to this.

Indeed. I also think so. Exceptionally I have to agree with you, Katherine!

So it could well have been that the deaconesses and the deacons had the same functions in the Early Church.

I wonder when the liturgical role the the deacon started, however.

 

[KatherineS]

Indeed. I also think so. Exceptionally I have to agree with you, Katherine!

So it could well have been that the deaconesses and the deacons had the same functions in the Early Church.

I wonder when the liturgical role the the deacon started, however.

I would think it would have first started informally. Quite possibily one can make a connection between the decline of women in the diaconate and the decline of the non-transitional diaconate among men, taking away its apostolic service function and limiting it to a prepatory stage towards priestly ordination.

 

[Struggling Sinner]

I would think it would have first started informally. Quite possibily one can make a connection between the decline of women in the diaconate and the decline of the non-transitional diaconate among men, taking away its apostolic service function and limiting it to a prepatory stage towards priestly ordination.

 

[steve_bakr]

No - it is the Pope who is led specifically by the Holy Spirit who is there to teach the flock what the Holy Spirit desires - not the other way around.

IF the Vatican needs reformed the Pope is led to such a thing...

This is how apostates pop up. Lacking trust that in how the Church moves. God doesnt work fast - He has seconds to change things - being outside of time - it means years within the Church.

I don't know where the apostate comment came from, but that is something that some people throw in if they don't like a particular observation. So, you might want to take your apostate innuendos elsewhere.

My original point was that the Vatican is not The Church. The Church includes all of the faithful. The Church "moves" organically in a process that includes all of the faithful.

 

[AvilaSurfer]

The "Church" is indeed all faithful, lay and clerical. The lay part of the Church does not lead, guide or move anything.