Women Clergy?

Fish and Bread

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You're Pope for the day.

Do you authorize the ordination of women as bishops, priests, and deacons?

Just deacons?

Not at all?

Though Cardinals are now almost always bishops and used to almost always be priests, in theory, could a Pope appoint a women as a Cardinal without ordination where she could wear the red hat and vote in conclave for the next Pope and maybe have an oversight role somewhere but not be able to celebrate mass, hear confessions, and do other things reserved to ordained clergy?
 

mark46

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You ask for a personal opinion. I have given it below. But there related issues. For example, the Orthodox now accepts Catholic priests and sacraments. This might change if we had female priests. Also, there is a lot of theological underpinnings to be written, including changes to various documents. There would need to be an encyclical by the pope saying why this step is allowable.

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First, I would authorize the ordination of female deacons. The diaconate is a very convenient stepping stone. This would establish for the world that women cans be ordained.

After a period of time, probably a few years, I would authorize the ordination of female priests.

Then, finally, bishops.
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But, let us be clear. The more important step is the ordination of Latin Rite Catholic married men. There are no dramatic changes required, only a decision by the pope. Of course, Eastern Rite Catholics are accepted into the priesthood. Episcopalian priests are accepted in the Catholic priesthood. it is only Latin Rite Catholic men that are excluded.
 
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Rhamiel

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if I were Pope for a day, I would not be able to ordain women as priests

the Pope does not have the authority to go against Christ

I do like the idea of creating women Cardinals
there has been historical precedent of members of the laity being named Cardinals
historically this was done when the Pope had bigger land holdings with the Papal States being a nation of some power, I think several military/political leaders were named Cardinals
right now there are 115 Cardinals
I would appoint 30 prominent Nuns from various religious orders to be Cardinals
or would it be Cardinalitas? Cardinaltrix?
so 30 out of 145 is not a lot, but it would be a voice in the election of the next Pope, especially if it is close

maybe it would even be good to name 30 abbots as well to represent the Monks as well?
 
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Fantine

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I had an interesting conversation with someone who knows a lot about church history about St. Hilda of Whitby (614-680) who was the abbess over men's and women's monasteries, and who was abbess over five monks who eventually became bishops.

The historian said that this was very common in Celtic countries

Bede describes Hilda as a woman of great energy, who was a skilled administrator and teacher. As a landowner she had many in her employ to care for sheep and cattle, farming and woodcutting. She gained such a reputation for wisdom that kings and princes sought her advice.

Hilda of Whitby - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It is said that birds dip their wings in her honor when they pass over her monastery.

So certainly I believe that women are capable of being priests--and if the Church had been centered in egalitarian England instead of Rome perhaps they would be today.

And of course I would have to allow women to enter the seminary if I were Pope for a day (otherwise how could I have become Pope in the first place?)
 
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CaDan

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Pope for a day? That's hardly time to accomplish my dream of replacing stodgy old white robes with a snazzy Elvis jumpsuit with CHI-RO in rhinestones on the front.

More seriously - Deacons for sure on the first day. The Scriptural support is there. Then call a Council to work on other issues.
 
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Fish and Bread

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Pope for a day? That's hardly time to accomplish my dream of replacing stodgy old white robes for a snazzy Elvis jumpsuit with CHI-RO in rhinestones on the front.

I can get behind that, but only if there is also a disco ball hanging down from the ceiling. ;)

More seriously - Deacons for sure on the first day. The Scriptural support is there. Then call a Council to work on other issues.

The old joke used to be something along the lines of that at Vatican III the bishops would be able to bring their wives, and at Vatican IV, they'd be able to bring their husbands. :)
 
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Open Heart

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I'm pretty sure I would bring back ordained deaconesses, as I am convinced they once existed in the church.

But I am not so sure about ordained priests and bishops. I don't want to choose, but if I were forced to choose, I would say no. My reason is this. It seems like everywhere in the church where women are allowed, we dominate. I think men need something they can do.

If you walk into my parish office, all of the staff (including me) are women. All of the fundraising, except the male only fraternity of the Knights of Columbus, is done by women. The Pro-life lobby is run by women and overwhelmingly has women involvement. The daily mass is dominated by women. Church volunteers are mostly (though not all) women. The catechists are mostly women. On and on.

It seems to me that the only areas where men dominate are the ones where women are excluded, which are basically the Knights, and the Brothers, and the Priesthood.

I'm afraid that if we allow an ordained priesthood, that men will stop participating, that it too will become dominated by women. And then what will be left for men?

Let men have the one thing they have going for them in the church.

But I'm not the pope, and never will be, and thank goodness for that. I don't want the power and responsibility. I don't really know what to do with these sorts of things. I think its better left to the glacier slow turnings of time. The Catholic church doesn't move fast, but when it does, it carves out rock.
 
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Rhamiel

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No, I believe in the male-only priesthood. Deconesses if there is a need, but not "just because".

in a way, the female religious communities fill the roles that the deaconesses filled in the early church
operating charities, ministering to women in need
 
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mark46

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in a way, the female religious communities fill the roles that the deaconesses filled in the early church
operating charities, ministering to women in need

I think that it is the nuns that perform these functions. Women lead so many church ministries.

The issue is made clear when a community of nuns needs to find a priest to give them communion each day. The issue is whether a woman can be called by God to the priesthood.
 
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Rhamiel

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hmmm
I have been mulling this over

do not some of the Oriental Orthodox Churches have deaconesses who are not ordained?

we could incorporate something like that into the Latin Church
the basis of monks and nuns are the religious community?
the basis of the deacon is service to the parish?

I might be mistaken on some of this theology
lol I am out of my depth
 
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Rhamiel

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I think that it is the nuns that perform these functions. Women lead so many church ministries.

The issue is made clear when a community of nuns needs to find a priest to give them communion each day. The issue is whether a woman can be called by God to the priesthood.

that was kind of my point, the roll that the "deaconess" filled in the early Church is now filled by nuns

as for the need of a priest, well yes, every community of lay members need a priest
same for monks, they need a priest too
monks and nuns are technically members of the laity even though they are consecrated religious
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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in a way, the female religious communities fill the roles that the deaconesses filled in the early church
operating charities, ministering to women in need

that was kind of my point, the roll that the "deaconess" filled in the early Church is now filled by nuns

as for the need of a priest, well yes, every community of lay members need a priest
same for monks, they need a priest too
monks and nuns are technically members of the laity even though they are consecrated religious

In our tradition, Lutheran Chruch Canada, the duties of our Deacness are much the same as the traditional duties of Catholic Nuns. While they are not ordained, they are consecrated. They do not serve as "deacons" liturgically though. Male Deacons do as do Elders which are "lay Deacons".

This works well for us.
 
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Rhamiel

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In our tradition, Lutheran Chruch Canada, the duties of our Deacness are much the same as the traditional duties of Catholic Nuns. While they are not ordained, they are consecrated. They do not serve as "deacons" liturgically though. Male Deacons do as do Elders which are "lay Deacons".

This works well for us.

wow, that is very interesting :)
I had no idea that was the case

this is something to keep in mind as ecumenical talks advance

does anyone know if the Syriac Orthodox Church has deaconesses still?
a girl I used to know said he mother was given the title of deaconess in the Syriac Church but then her mother became Marronite Catholic because her husband was Marronite
I have not talked to this girl in years though, I might be misremembering things
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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wow, that is very interesting :)
I had no idea that was the case

this is something to keep in mind as ecumenical talks advance

does anyone know if the Syriac Orthodox Church has deaconesses still?
a girl I used to know said he mother was given the title of deaconess in the Syriac Church but then her mother became Marronite Catholic because her husband was Marronite
I have not talked to this girl in years though, I might be misremembering things

I'm not sure where the usage of the title "Deaconess" originated, but we confessional Lutherans. being creatures of habit and tradition, certainly would not have invented it.:)
 
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Rhamiel

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I'm not sure where the usage of the title "Deaconess" originated, but we confessional Lutherans. being creatures of habit and tradition, certainly would not have invented it.:)

tradition and habit?
oh I thought it was innovation and plasticity?
must be a misunderstanding on my part
 
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Fish and Bread

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I'm not sure where the usage of the title "Deaconess" originated

Some translations of Romans 16:1 read something along the lines of the following "I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a deacon of the church at Cenchreae" (That's the NRSV bible, but it is not the only translation that reads essentially that way). There is either an early ecumenical council or a local church council at some point that laid out some rules for how many deaconesses a diocese could have (Then using the term deaconess rather than deacon IIRC) and what the qualifications were for becoming one (Something like a widowed celibate or widowed woman over 40, if I recall correctly), which in context appears to be them restricting a pre-existing practice that was previously more liberalized. However, this of course fell out of favor before the end of the first millennium after Christ and one can find things forbidding deaconesses and such.

The debate in Christian circles is largely centered around whether these deaconesses were deacons in the ordained sense who would read the Gospel at mass and so on and so forth just as male deacons, or whether they were unordained female volunteers upon whom a title was conferred without ordination who would do things like assist with baptisms for female converts, as the custom in those days was for adult converts to be baptized naked in a river and there would have been some questions surrounding just what was going on there if it had been naked women alone with a man or several men. I am not sure there is persuasive evidence for either viewpoint, either is possible.

In Catholicism and some similar churches and denominations where ordination is said to be something that creates a permanent ontological change to someone's soul, which is marked forever, the question of whether deaconesses were ordained becomes more significant than in other traditions, even if there became some consensus as to what precisely they did and if the question were to only come down to whether it was an ordained or non-ordained role. Some conservatives to view that the three-fold ordained ministry of the bishops, priests, and deacons is given by God and restricted by God to men and can not be altered by humankind, but the latter part of that preposition would fall apart if female deaconess were proven to have been *ordained*. In theory, this would create a traditional argument that ordination of women is possible theologically and that the decision not to have women bishops and priests is also a matter of discipline, rather than doctrine or discipline, which would make it a discretionary thing that the Church could change at any time versus something that that the Church has no authority to ever allow.

Of course, there are some who would reject the very basis for the argument and simply say that women should be allowed to be ordained regardless of history, and that if there were not historical ordinations, it was because of sexism or people bowing to limitations imposed by sexism or circumstances that are not necessarily relevant any longer to today's Church. At certain times during the Roman Empire, Christianity was viewed as a woman's religion, and restricting ordination at that time to only men could have been a way to combat that, or the Apostles might have simply ordained men because they were Jewish and that was the Jewish tradition, and then had people take it as holy writ when it may not have been.

I think there is often a subtext to these discussions about whether Jesus was simply the end of the discussion on everything in his time on earth, or whether he was pointing in a direction in which things should continue to move. Perhaps, for example, he was including women to a greater extent and in more distinct roles than Judaism and some other religions might have been accepting at that time, and could not push any more *at that time* without limiting the reach of the religion that would develop from his teachings, and we should continue to push to the limits of what our society will accept, which would probably mean ordained women bishops, priests, and deacons.

I think often the traditional point of view is limits our moral understanding to essentially those of 2,000 years ago, whereas a more progressive outlook allows us to advance morally and ethically. Vatican II was I think the first time the idea of doctrinal development was explicitly recognized, which was perceived a major change in it's time and part of the basis of some traditionalists schisming over or complaining about the council, but Vatican II's definition of doctrinal development, while a change from the traditional ideas surrounding the issue, and over all a liberalization, was not quite as progressive as some would have liked either as it did not allow for development along certain lines. Had the Church continued to go in the direction of Vatican II, the next council probably would have liberalized even further, but John-Paul II and Benedict XVI aggressively tried to reign in interpretations of the council and view them through a very traditional lens in many respects, and appointed bishops largely on the basis of finding people who agreed with their theology. Rembert Weakland, former Archbishop of Milwaukee, comments extensively on the difference between bishops appointed by the few Popes preceding JP2's tenure as Pope and that the type of bishops JP2 was appointing in his book and how the newer bishops were less independent thinkers and tended to view themselves more as foot soldiers of the Pope than as co-equals who could have their own opinions as the previous generation (The Pope technically is simply the "first among equals", a phrase which is very vague and gets interpreted differently at different times and by different people). He said the local bishops conference in the United States used to involve a lot of debate and independent decision making, but quickly transitioned to people quoting the latest encyclicals and doing whatever they thought Rome wanted as the older bishops retired and the ones appointed during JP2's 26 year tenure became a large minority, and then a majority, and eventually the entire conference. There was, in his view, a transition from independent thinkers selected for their pastoral qualities to people selected almost entirely for theological agreement who were perhaps less equipped to be shepherds of their own flocks.
 
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mark46

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Phoebe was "diakonos" the first one mentioned in Scripture. This is same title gives to himself. She is attached to a particular church. So, to me, there is no question that there were female deacons in the time of Scripture.
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HOWEVER, and this is a BIG, however, in all the Tradition that has come down to us from the 3rd century on, when there were clear roles for pope, bishop and ordained religious, there is only one situation where any female is in a consecrated role, only one. There are NO female priests or bishop in the Tradition of the Church.
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As the Orthodox tell us, there were certain roles which only women could perform. For example, recall that when adults were baptized they were naked. It would have seemed improper for men to baptize or confirm naked women. So, yes, there were woman deacons. HOWEVER, it does not follow that women performed ANY of the roles performed by male deacons and priests.
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SO, WHERE ARE?
Scripture certainly has examples of the role of a female deacon. The Early Church did indeed have female deacons for certain task. So, these roles should be seen to be in opposition to Scripture. The Episcopal Church has taken the leap, and decided that since women are not prohibited from being ordained, and there are many reasons to want to ordain women, TEC (and many other Anglican bodies throughout the world) ordain female deacons, priests and bishops.

In the end, when there are no prohibitions, there are man-made choices. However, one should proceed with much care when making such a large move from the tradition of the Church.
 
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