Women becoming pastors?

[timothygrae]

You are welcome.

There is no mention of women being Pastors, as Lutheran Church Canada does not ordain women to the Office of the Holy Ministry. Not a Lutheran source, but this explains our position: Christianity and Ethnicity in Canada
(Page 263).

Also, how we define Pastor is likely a bit different from the Baptist view considering our more historicaly traditional view of the Sacraments: Lutheran Church–Canada +++ History & Beliefs

The first article was quite interesting, though they seem to be speculating rather than making any significant claim; still an interesting read.

The second article was informative. I've always found myself to identify on some level with the Lutheran denomination (as all Christians should, to some degree at least, given all denominations still place Christ at the centre and head of the church). I have a profound respect for the steadfastness of their beliefs and practices, as is seen in Orthodoxy, whereas I find in Baptist churches, as I myself am a part of, the diversity of beliefs can at times be slowing to church progression; however I do value the discussions that this variety brings about within the church and the heightened sense of democracy that comes with this.

The only thing that keeps me away from churches such as Lutheran (don't think I'm implying that Lutherans are in any way wrong in their Christian structures) is their interpretation of the Bible as a strict set of specific requirements and separate structures (this may not be explicitly so, and even if it is, this is not fundamentally incorrect) whereby I prefer to look at the Bible as a more conceptual text, a behavioural hierachy, so to speak. In this I mean that Matthew 22:37-40 is the greater concept from which our behaviour stems from. I personally see Paul's letters more as guidance than instruction, and in several cases a rebuke of blatant deferring from this Law, all of which is of high value. I consider context and individual relevance when reading the epistles, hence why I believe women have the capacity to be pastors. I believe the concepts presented in the Bible are applicable to all, and direct instruction may be directed to persons of specific circumstance.

And then there is my slant towards arminianism over calvanism... Which is a discussion for a different forum.

Having said all this, the church is the entire body of believers, and not limited to specific buildings or institutions or denominations, as stated in the second article, based on 1 Corinthians 12, though church is a word that has develped to mean those other things. Each denomination has different values which speak to different persons, which is valuable, as God speaks to us each differently for each of us are unique.

 

[SkyWriting]

Sure. Paul was wrong. Ok. Whatever.

Some of my neighbors are women.
This is how they should be treated:

34 Bible Verses about SkyWritings Female Neighbors

 

[SkyWriting]

Seems as if they don't believe that a certain part of the NT is inspired.
I spoke to a religious female cousin who said that what Paul wrote is nonsense.

What he wrote was nonsense. Paul was concerned about power.

 

[SkyWriting]

My take on this that a woman should not be the senior pastor of a church.

The scriptures state that your neighbor lady should be treated as you would want to be treated. This takes priority over everything.

What Does the Bible Say About Golden Rule?

 

[SkyWriting]

Oh so you going against what the Lord told Paul to write.

Paul didn't have a chance to read the entire new testament.

6 Bible verses about Golden Rule

 

[Radrook]

Paul didn't have a chance to read the entire new testament.

6 Bible verses about Golden Rule

What percentage of the NT did Paul write?

 

[Der Alte]

What he wrote was nonsense. Paul was concerned about power.

Nonsense! Paul had power as a Pharisee with warrants for him to arrest Jewish Christians and have them punished by Jewish authorities including scourging, stoning and death. But he gave up that "power" to become a Christian being persecuted by both the Romans and the Jewish leaders. He had so much power here is what happened to him.

2 Corinthians 11:23-27
(23) Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft.
(24) Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one.
(25) Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep;
(26) In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren;
(27) In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness.​

And Paul had so much power that he was finally taken to Rome and executed.

 

[SkyWriting]

Nonsense! Paul had power as a Pharisee with warrants for him to arrest Jewish Christians and have them punished by Jewish authorities including scourging, stoning and death. But he gave up that "power" to become a Christian being persecuted by both the Romans and the Jewish leaders. He had so much power here is what happened to him.

2 Corinthians 11:23-27
(23) Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft.
(24) Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one.
(25) Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep;
(26) In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren;
(27) In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness.​

And Paul had so much power that he was finally taken to Rome and executed.

What happens to a person does not define their ego, though it can.
Jesus was also killed because he was perceived as calling Himself God.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Some of my neighbors are women.
This is how they should be treated:

34 Bible Verses about SkyWritings Female Neighbors

You said Paul is wrong. I don't see your verses showing Paul was wrong.

A neighbor is not an office in the church. A neighbor is not a pastor, elder or deacon.

 

[Philip_B]

You said Paul is wrong. I don't see your verses showing Paul was wrong.
A neighbor is not an office in the church. A neighbor is not a pastor, elder or deacon.

In fairness, it was @ToBeLoved who first said Paul was wrong - though I think it was said with an implied question mark.

A pastor, elder, or deacon are indeed neighbours in terms of the Luke 10:30-37 reckoning of the lawyers question of Luke 10:29. Far to much damage has been done to clergy by lay people who forget this.

 

[Der Alte]

What happens to a person does not define their ego, though it can.
Jesus was also killed because he was perceived as calling Himself God.

Still does not support your previous claim.

What he wrote was nonsense. Paul was concerned about power.

 

[SkyWriting]

Still does not support your previous claim.

What he wrote was nonsense because it does not pass the golden rule test.
Paul should make no guidelines regarding the behavior of women
lest women make rules regarding the behavior of men....or just Paul.

6 Bible verses Paul violated about Golden Rule
when he spoke regarding women.

 

[Der Alte]

What he wrote was nonsense because it does not pass the golden rule test.
Paul should make no guidelines regarding the behavior of women
lest women make rules regarding the behavior of men....or just Paul.

Without even looking, there is nothing wrong with any verse in Paul's writing. Nothing! I said before I do not chase links. If you have something to say, say it here and I will address it.

 

[BettyAnn]

I've seen such a situation several times and yes, they did ask the men to leave. Politely but honestly. All of them were understanding except in one case. In that case the woman's study was cancelled. Sometimes things happen.

Here's another point: If the only thing women are allowed to do is preach to other women and children then why are so many men in their ministries? Wouldn't it be the men in the wrong for allowing a woman to teach them and usurp their authority? Should women pastors ask all the grown men to leave?

 

[LoveofTruth]

The way I see it, if God can speak to Balaam through the mouth of a donkey (Numbers 22), how can you justify saying that God can't speak through women? You need to remember that Paul is writing with a certain context, and in this circumstance he is writing in a society where women are uneducated, and constant interruption during church meetings to occur due to a woman's lack of understanding is obviously going to disrupt proceedings. Note the next verse clearly encourages women to learn the Word of God, though in private, therefore acknowledging that women are capable of understanding, and suggesting that this instruction is given in response to lack of education.
We can see through the Old Testament women of high regard and in positions of leadership sanctioned by God, namely Miriam, Deborah and Huldah. Clearly, God can use women as leaders in his church. To suggest that this is outdated doctrine is a baseless claim, and to me seems to imply that God's power has become more limited since Old Testament times. And while several elements of Old Testament doctrine are outdated, this particular issue seems to be fairly stable in terms of validity in maintaining relevance in moder culture.
And then there are the people who will say, 'God created man first.' Well, actually, God created fish and birds before even man, and I don't see us appointing them church leaders. To then say that woman was deceived by the Serpent indicates that they are less qualified to leads churches is clearly undertaken in forgetting Romans 3:23; "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God," i.e. We are all as bad as each other, no individual is worth more to God.
I am not saying that all people are capable of being pastors. I believe God gifts individuals differently in order to serve a specific purpose, to form the body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12). And if a woman has the gift of preaching and leadership, than that is clearly given unto them by God, and to work against that would surely work against the advancement of the kingdom?

Women are allowed to speak and have revelations and prophesy as they are speaking in Christ and so led, but as far as judging men or thier husbands and standing over them usurping thier authority in the home this is not allowed . To do so would contradict Gods order for the home where the husband is to rule well his own house. God is not the author of confusion and he doesn't teach one thing to some and contradict himself to others .

Imagine a young child in the home meetings of those days watching his father rule the house during the week , then when the church gathers in thier home on a certain day the mother rebukes the father in front of all. This would cause confusion

 

[LoveofTruth]

The way I see it, if God can speak to Balaam through the mouth of a donkey (Numbers 22), how can you justify saying that God can't speak through women? You need to remember that Paul is writing with a certain context, and in this circumstance he is writing in a society where women are uneducated, and constant interruption during church meetings to occur due to a woman's lack of understanding is obviously going to disrupt proceedings. Note the next verse clearly encourages women to learn the Word of God, though in private, therefore acknowledging that women are capable of understanding, and suggesting that this instruction is given in response to lack of education.
We can see through the Old Testament women of high regard and in positions of leadership sanctioned by God, namely Miriam, Deborah and Huldah. Clearly, God can use women as leaders in his church. To suggest that this is outdated doctrine is a baseless claim, and to me seems to imply that God's power has become more limited since Old Testament times. And while several elements of Old Testament doctrine are outdated, this particular issue seems to be fairly stable in terms of validity in maintaining relevance in moder culture.
And then there are the people who will say, 'God created man first.' Well, actually, God created fish and birds before even man, and I don't see us appointing them church leaders. To then say that woman was deceived by the Serpent indicates that they are less qualified to leads churches is clearly undertaken in forgetting Romans 3:23; "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God," i.e. We are all as bad as each other, no individual is worth more to God.
I am not saying that all people are capable of being pastors. I believe God gifts individuals differently in order to serve a specific purpose, to form the body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12). And if a woman has the gift of preaching and leadership, than that is clearly given unto them by God, and to work against that would surely work against the advancement of the kingdom?

And women can speak in prophesy as we read in scripture . We see that in Acts 2 and when there was s church meeting in Philips home with others and Paul etc. Philip had four daughters that prophesied in that meeting. This is clear that women can speak in a certain way . But speaking this way is not so much them that speak but the Spirit of God.

 

[Sammy-San]

I feel this has come down to personal preference now. Besides, different people have different roles and giftings (1 Corinthians 12). Hence why several churches have several pastors, such as Youth pastors, music pastors etc. And to keep it relevant to the topic, I feel that a woman can have any of these giftings, hence be a pastor...

What about Eve being deceived?

 

[Strong in Him]

What about Eve being deceived?

What about Adam deliberately choosing to ignore God's word?

 

[ToBeLoved]

In fairness, it was @ToBeLoved who first said Paul was wrong - though I think it was said with an implied question mark.

A pastor, elder, or deacon are indeed neighbours in terms of the Luke 10:30-37 reckoning of the lawyers question of Luke 10:29. Far to much damage has been done to clergy by lay people who forget this.

No. Read 1 Timothy there are certain church offices and the expectations of what those people should be is listed in the Bible.

Saying a neighbor is a church office is just silly.

Qualifications for Overseers

1 Timothy 3:1–7
1 The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task. 2 Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3 not a drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. 4 He must manage his own household well, with all dignity keeping his children submissive, 5 for if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how will he care for God’s church? 6 He must not be a recent convert, or he may become puffed up with conceit and fall into the condemnation of the devil. 7 Moreover, he must be well thought of by outsiders, so that he may not fall into disgrace, into ha snare of the devil.



Titus 1:5–9
5 This is why I left you in Crete, so that you might put what remained into order, and appoint elders in every town as I directed you— 6 if anyone is above reproach, the husband of one wife,3 and his children are believers4 and not open to the charge of ebauchery or insubordination. 7 For an overseer, as God’s steward, must be above reproach. He must not tbe arrogant or quick-tempered or a drunkard or violent or greedy for gain, 8 but hospitable, a lover of good, self-controlled, upright, holy, and disciplined. 9 He must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it.

 

[Ilovereading]

Paul didn't have a chance to read the entire new testament.

6 Bible verses about Golden Rule

I know yet God told Paul to write the letters he had written.