Women and Tzitzit's

xDenax

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Well, the same question I would bring before people of all religions...what's with the need to change one's appearance or to comply with a "uniform code" of any religious community?

See where I am comng from?

Isn't is often because they think it's what God wants? People wear tzitzit because it's what they believe God wants. People cover their hair generally because they think it's what God wants. Women wear dresses only because they feel it's what God wants.

They could also like the feeling of belonging it brings or the sharing of identity.
 
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ContraMundum

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ContraMundum

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Interesting topic, would love to read it if you can share it when done.

Cultural norm/religious acceptance. I don't look any different than anyone else walking down the street, so people aren't going to say "Look! An Orthodox Jew!" But put me in a religious setting, and if I didn't cover my hair or follow tzunius, I'd stick out like a sore thumb.
I don't wear a sheitl or long skirts/long sleeved tops to announce to the world what or who I am. I do it because my beliefs require it, and let's face it, everyone wants to fit in with their "peer" group.

Yes, thanks for that. Acceptance is one issue that I think is at the heart of it- the idea that acceptance by God and acceptance by one's peers (eg. external pressures) are at the heart of the matter is something I am going to have to explore.
 
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ContraMundum

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Isn't is often because they think it's what God wants? People wear tzitzit because it's what they believe God wants. People cover their hair generally because they think it's what God wants. Women wear dresses only because they feel it's what God wants.

They could also like the feeling of belonging it brings or the sharing of identity.

I think this is pretty much also what ChavaK is saying too. I need to think on this. It's a kind of peer group and God combined pressure angle on it.
 
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ChavaK

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Well, the same question I would bring before people of all religions...what's with the need to change one's appearance or to comply with a "uniform code" of any religious community?

See where I am comng from?
Yes, but it especially doesn't make sense when someone is trying to identify with a religious community that is not their own.
 
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M

MessianicMommy

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Wow..THAT'S coming back in? What next, purple rimmed sunglasses? :)

All those "hippie" sunglasses are in style, especially rose colored glasses. Then you have the designers churning out their designs which are sometimes vastly different. :D



Ah, kimono. Doesn't that come from the Greek word for winter? :)

Thanks for the fashion training! :wave:
LOL!

You're welcome :)
 
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MessianicMommy

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Yes, thanks for that. Acceptance is one issue that I think is at the heart of it- the idea that acceptance by God and acceptance by one's peers (eg. external pressures) are at the heart of the matter is something I am going to have to explore.
You might find it more of a "pressure" thing in certain countries, specifically certain *parts* of countries.

I know in PA Dutch country, if you're not Amish or Mennonite, there's not much pressure as to what you wear for church. But, in the Amish/Mennonite world, you wear and live how they say in the ordnung and no differently. Same in other areas heavily Older order Anabaptist.

In the Bible Belt, it depends strongly on your denomination. You know the AOG/COG people from the get-go, by how they dress. You may or may not be able to identify the various baptist groups by their dress, but in general, the older women usually wear Ladies' suits or dresses, and they aren't cut below a certain amount or above a certain amount. There's usually a great deal of pressure on the younger women to conform to a similar style of dress. Also, depending on the type of baptist, only skirts/dresses are acceptable, and sometimes culottes are acceptable if they're knee or longer length. Other times, there isn't that much control over what is acceptable wear when you are at home on your own.

I don't know many in either group that cover, but some AOG/COG feel very, very strongly about the length of women's hair and not cutting it or shaving other hair. :sorry: It's a sin you just don't ever want to do.

I think it was the 7th day Baptists that cover. I haven't met very many, but those I had contact with - the women cover, similar to Mennonites.

Some within other denominations cover, but maybe not to the extent you find at modestworld.com or tzinius.com - just a kerchief or hat or such carefully placed. Sometimes it is very strongly discouraged by the other women, and sometimes the pastor or deacon/elder board. It just depends on the congregation and it's politics, as well as the level of control they have over the members. They'd not dare discourage a woman with cancer from covering her head though. :sorry:
 
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siseleanor

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It's straightforward so far as I am aware, as women there is no reason we cannot put on tzitzit and make the brocha, and can then take them off. We don't have to wear them all day. It's an opportunity to make a blessing, and beautiful. So far as I recall the rabbis do all agree that a woman shouldn't wear a four cornered garment without tzitzit, it's just not something obligatory, and we are discouraged from doing something which makes it look as if we are trying to be more pious than the pious. That jars.
As for reason, it comes down to the difference between a chassidic approach and a mitnagdim approach. The first one eats in order to be able to make the blessing, the second one makes the blessing in order to be able to eat. It's a mitzva, something beautiful which puts a smile on G-d's face, because it makes that holy bond between us and G-d which is what the Torah is, spiritual, holy, covenant-faithful intimacy. Sorry just whizzing through, haven't read the whole thread.
 
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yedida

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It's straightforward so far as I am aware, as women there is no reason we cannot put on tzitzit and make the brocha, and can then take them off. We don't have to wear them all day. It's an opportunity to make a blessing, and beautiful. So far as I recall the rabbis do all agree that a woman shouldn't wear a four cornered garment without tzitzit, it's just not something obligatory, and we are discouraged from doing something which makes it look as if we are trying to be more pious than the pious. That jars.
As for reason, it comes down to the difference between a chassidic approach and a mitnagdim approach. The first one eats in order to be able to make the blessing, the second one makes the blessing in order to be able to eat. It's a mitzva, something beautiful which puts a smile on G-d's face, because it makes that holy bond between us and G-d which is what the Torah is, spiritual, holy, covenant-faithful intimacy. Sorry just whizzing through, haven't read the whole thread.

Can't say I disagree.
 
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Lulav

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Yes, quite true, I figured that much out so far, but the question is: why? What's so important about wanting the world to know what you identify with? I started pondering this due to the prevalence of the burka (sp?) in the area I am now ministering in, and then I got to thinking...a lot of people are really into wearing "colours" (as the gangs call it) to identify their religion- my own colleagues included (although I have pretty much ditched it except for certain occasions myself)


See what I am getting at? I wonder what the underlying deep rooted motive is. I have thought about my own practice of clerical wear too, and my own religious heritage from before the cloth.

Interesting subject CM, I'd love to read it when you're finished!

BTW, speaking of the 'cloth', I am assuming you are referring to the collar? If not why is it called that. Why do we hear about 'Men of the cloth' instead of 'Priest' of G-d or 'Man of G-d'?
 
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ChavaK

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I've gone through this whole thread and waited for the promised pictures of the ladies katan,and see that they still haven't been posted. What happened? Did the OP get scared off?
Yeah, I was waiting for them too. Not sure what happened, but I doubt
we scared her away!
 
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kcminneus

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Brand newbie here - just registered today, and have been browsing posts. :wave:
Can ya believe it!? - I just perused this entire thread. Interesting discussion.

Just here for a few minutes but am going to toss in a response to the last two posters (Lulav and Chavak) regarding the awaited photos of the OP's ladies katans:

I noticed in reading through the thread, she commented that she couldn't post a photo in the thread until she'd reached a set number of posts, she hadn't reached that yet, and asked for help with that. I looked at her public profile, as someone here within the thread recommended she post a photo there. Dated January 8th, she did indeed post a photo of the ladies katan in an album on her profile. Your posts were dated well over a month later.

The posts indicating "I've gone through this whole thread and waited... and they still haven't been posted...did the OP get scared off?" seems a bit "catty".

Jus' sayin'...
Shalom to ya'll. :)
 
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yedida

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Brand newbie here - just registered today, and have been browsing posts. :wave:
Can ya believe it!? - I just perused this entire thread. Interesting discussion.

Just here for a few minutes but am going to toss in a response to the last two posters (Lulav and Chavak) regarding the awaited photos of the OP's ladies katans:

I noticed in reading through the thread, she commented that she couldn't post a photo in the thread until she'd reached a set number of posts, she hadn't reached that yet, and asked for help with that. I looked at her public profile, as someone here within the thread recommended she post a photo there. Dated January 8th, she did indeed post a photo of the ladies katan in an album on her profile. Your posts were dated well over a month later.

The posts indicating "I've gone through this whole thread and waited... and they still haven't been posted...did the OP get scared off?" seems a bit "catty".

Jus' sayin'...
Shalom to ya'll. :)

Not really catty. This place, MJ as a whole, was going thru some major trials with some viral posters and that's what was being referenced.
 
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ChavaK

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Brand newbie here - just registered today, and have been browsing posts. :wave:
Howdy newbie!
I noticed in reading through the thread, she commented that she couldn't post a photo in the thread until she'd reached a set number of posts, she hadn't reached that yet, and asked for help with that. I looked at her public profile, as someone here within the thread recommended she post a photo there. Dated January 8th, she did indeed post a photo of the ladies katan in an album on her profile. Your posts were dated well over a month later.

The posts indicating "I've gone through this whole thread and waited... and they still haven't been posted...did the OP get scared off?" seems a bit "catty".

Jus' sayin'...
Shalom to ya'll. :)

No, not catty at all.....as far as I can tell she didn't post that she had
put the pictures on her profile. Didn't occur to me to go take a look,
even though I suggested it, LOL.
 
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Lulav

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Brand newbie here - just registered today, and have been browsing posts. :wave:
Can ya believe it!? - I just perused this entire thread. Interesting discussion.

Just here for a few minutes but am going to toss in a response to the last two posters (Lulav and Chavak) regarding the awaited photos of the OP's ladies katans:

I noticed in reading through the thread, she commented that she couldn't post a photo in the thread until she'd reached a set number of posts, she hadn't reached that yet, and asked for help with that. I looked at her public profile, as someone here within the thread recommended she post a photo there. Dated January 8th, she did indeed post a photo of the ladies katan in an album on her profile. Your posts were dated well over a month later.

The posts indicating "I've gone through this whole thread and waited... and they still haven't been posted...did the OP get scared off?" seems a bit "catty".

Jus' sayin'...
Shalom to ya'll. :)

Since you quoted my post I will respond.

I wonder why you felt the need to just join up to make this observation?
And that is the only post you've made.

This is not an introductory thread, but seems contrived to just start trouble?

And it seems aimed at me.:confused: If you have something against me, my PM box is open. I don't appreciate having false accusations made at me by a brand new 'newbie' especially if they really aren't brand new.

My comment was sincere, I thought she might have been scared off by all the debate, which I saw as evidenced by her stopping participation here.

As Chavak said, there were no replies saying she had posted it in her profile and to think we would automatically think to look there is a bit presumptuous.

One thing I will thank you for, I've never been referred to as being 'catty' before, I don't go for that kind of girly talk, but now I can cross it off my list. :thumbsup:
 
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Lulav

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In reviewing this thread I see that the OP dropped out after posting a strong protest against any Rabbinic following. By her profile it seems she is new to the faith and is zealous as many newbies are, to be in complete obedience. While this may be misguided by ignorance and misunderstanding her zeal for the L-RD should not be squelched.

I got a look at them, and they are cute, and the one she posted is in my favorite color. However although the argument about B'nei having some relevance it is a cultural marker as well and should be respected. Using a Rabbinic design for the outer-garment and tying by Rabbinic standards and Kabbalah even, while denigrating them for other writings is hypocritical for lack of a better word.

I think if one feels the need to fulfill this commandment it should be not a copy of Rabbinical Tradition but something of one's own, so as to avoid confusion and offense.

I'll give you an example. There is a cable TV show called Project Runway. I got interested in it as I dabble myself in design. On one of the shows the remaining three got to make a collection of their choosing. One of the contestants inspiration was based on the dress style of Hasidic men. This was coupled with women wearing clothes of satin and brocade, and described by him as 'modern rock star meets Hasidic gentleman' and 'the collection's inspiration involving a vampire in Williamsburg "who borrows clothes from her Hasidic dandy friends'.

If that weren't bad enough, he has all the models hair styled in pseudo Peyos. This is offensive to me even. Although their whole heads were curled, the ringlets were meant to imitate the peyos, which are a commandment.

Some say that imitation is the most sincere type of flattery, but sometimes it goes beyond that and is an affront to things held sacred.
 
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yedida

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Why would women wear tzitzits? Why would men, for that matter? We're no longer under the law. It saddens me to see so many Jewish people who have found their Saviour thinking they still need to do something extra to be righteous.

You misunderstand Messianic Judaism as church teachings misunderstand it and Judaism. There is no one here that believes that anything "extra" can be done. But obedience remains obedience regardless of what you want to think of it.
Please review the SoP and CF House Rules before posting here further. Thank you.
 
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Lulav

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Why would women wear tzitzits? Why would men, for that matter? We're no longer under the law. It saddens me to see so many Jewish people who have found their Saviour thinking they still need to do something extra to be righteous.
'Hi Helen, you said, 'no longer', does this mean you are a Jewish believer? I see you are flying the Israel flag and have Israel as your country. But do you know that tzitzit are a reminder of the commandments? Like a mezzuzah?

Do you write lists to yourself to reminds you not to forget something? That's what it's like, just it's G-ds way of reminding us. :)
 
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