Women and Tzitzit's

elishiva123

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Let us know when you find the store that will give away the CDs, the Bibles, the books, the tzadaka boxes, the tallits, mezuzzahs, the crosses and other jewelry - I'll be the second one there (you having been there first, of course). :D

I like how you put that.
 
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ChavaK

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I have been trying to post photos and links in here, and I finally found out that I have to have 50 posts or more here to be able to do that. So it won't let me post anything about my Togs, so that you can see them. How can I get you to be able to see them?

You are half way there....maybe you can do a lot more posts throughout
CF to get the count up. Or perhaps it is possible to put pictures of them
in your profile?
 
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yedida

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I have been trying to post photos and links in here, and I finally found out that I have to have 50 posts or more here to be able to do that. So it won't let me post anything about my Togs, so that you can see them. How can I get you to be able to see them?

Elisheva, I believe you can put your photos in an "alvum" on your profile page. You can just refer all who are interested to there right now. Later, when you're able you can do the other. Those who are really interested won't mind going to the album,, as you're more able to explain each one individually if you so choose.
 
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yedida

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You are half way there....maybe you can do a lot more posts throughout
CF to get the count up. Or perhaps it is possible to put pictures of them
in your profile?

Great minds think alike. The link I got led me to her post just below yours and I missed it. lol
 
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Henaynei

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I wear not tallit, tzitzit, kippah.
Women have so many more mitzvot for which they are responsible than men.
This is why the rabbis exempt them from certain mitzvot and why men thank HaShem each morning that He did not make them women! :)
Why must we desire to emulate those things that the rabbis have agreed are for the men?
Is it not of utmost importance for us to support and encourage our men to build fellowship with other G-dfearing men in the Jewish and MJ communities?
If we adopt that which belongs to the men are we not seen as horning in on their office as head and leader? As we feminize that which has always been masculine does it not effeminize these markers that have served to build, unite and strengthen our men? Are we, G-dly women, to follow the female culture of this world which doggedly insists that nothing be left that men can call exclusively their own?
Are not OUR feminine markers our humble, modest and chaste dress and behavior, and the G-d honoring and Torah observant homes and families we create, build up and nurture?
Is not our G-d given calling to surround, build up and encourage our men folk to stand and lead, rather than desire to usurp the markers of their roles?
Just asking....:confused:
b'Shalom
 
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elishiva123

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Henaynei, what the Rabbi's say, really does not matter. God's Word is what counts. "The Rabbi's" have taken God's Word and changed it, and made it their own, and have added to it, their own rules and regulations, and made their word above even Yah's Word!

You even admit that the Rabbi's are the one's who lay these rules down, not God. You are placing what the Rabbi's say, above Yah's Word. No where in your statement do you proclaim anything within Yah's Word. You are just all about what "the Rabbi's say".

You said, "This is why the rabbis exempt them from certain mitzvot". The (Rabbi's) exempted women from wearing Tzitzit's, where Yah TOLD THEM TO WEAR THEM.

You said, "Why must we desire to emulate those things that the rabbis have agreed are for the men? Here again, you said, 'that the RABBI'S AGREED............are for men'. Do you see what you're saying? THE RABBI'S ARE NOT LAW!!! Yah's Word IS LAW!

Open your eyes. Please!

Yah's Word says that "the 'children' of Israel" need to wear Tassels on the fringes of their outer garments. The word 'children' here, just as in many other scriptures, means "ALL" of Yah's children, not just men, whether within the fold our outside of it, for ALL generations.

Stop depending on "THE RABBI'S" and start depending on Yah's straight undefiled Word, and His Word, ONLY.
 
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Henaynei

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Henaynei, what the Rabbi's say, really does not matter. God's Word is what counts. "The Rabbi's" have taken God's Word and changed it, and made it their own, and have added to it, their own rules and regulations, and made their word above even Yah's Word!

You even admit that the Rabbi's are the one's who lay these rules down, not God. You are placing what the Rabbi's say, above Yah's Word. No where in your statement do you proclaim anything within Yah's Word. You are just all about what "the Rabbi's say".

You said, "This is why the rabbis exempt them from certain mitzvot". The (Rabbi's) exempted women from wearing Tzitzit's, where Yah TOLD THEM TO WEAR THEM.

You said, "Why must we desire to emulate those things that the rabbis have agreed are for the men? Here again, you said, 'that the RABBI'S AGREED............are for men'. Do you see what you're saying? THE RABBI'S ARE NOT LAW!!! Yah's Word IS LAW!

Open your eyes. Please!

Yah's Word says that "the 'children' of Israel" need to wear Tassels on the fringes of their outer garments. The word 'children' here, just as in many other scriptures, means "ALL" of Yah's children, not just men, whether within the fold our outside of it, for ALL generations.

Stop depending on "THE RABBI'S" and start depending on Yah's straight undefiled Word, and His Word, ONLY.
Dear sister,
First please forgive me quoting your whole reply in bulk. I'm posting from my iPod and the finer points of ettiquite in replying are not readily available, neither is spell check ;)

I can agree with you that if and when what the Rabbis say contradicts scripture then we must follow scripture.
The scriptures to which you refer are by their nature and context for the men. When G-d gave them the context is always assumed to be the men. You see in scripture that when it is written how many persons went into Egypt and how many came out it was the men that were counted. G-d has chosen the man to be the head. You and I are under the covering of our husbands. Thus if we support and encourage them to both wear the tzitzit and be honest in actually doing what the wearing signifies (obedience to those of the 613 that apply today where he lives) then you are already covered.
Dear one, I've been walking with Yeshua as a Torah Observant Gentile married to a Torah observant Messianic Jewish man for nearly 25 years. Please don't assume I need to "open my eyes" to see corruption of scripture or that the points you aimed at me are fresh, new or that I've never given them prayerful consideration. In point of fact I have spent much prayer and time in consideration and the honest appraisal G-d gave to me was an uncomfortable view of just how much of the feminist culture I had bought into and what that POV has done to the men both in our culture and, even worse, in the body of Messiah. It remains a daily struggle for me to die to the "why not ME too" attitude with which I grew up and was trained - and am still being inflicted by general media influences.
We women have stollen so much that was not ours from our men and have sold cheaply so much that was solely ours. We have lost the true appreciation of womanhood AND manhood.
For me, I choose to celebrate manhood and manly community by joyfully appreciating my womanhood and real feminity while refusing to challenge the "man's world" by insisting that I have access to those things whch the rabbis have rightly given to men.
P.S. if, like Rashi's daughters, your covering has agreed for you to wear a tallit, have the grace and humility as did they and wear it during prayer and study time alone in the privacy of your home :wave:
b'Shalom
 
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yonah_mishael

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Henaynei, what the Rabbi's say, really does not matter. God's Word is what counts. "The Rabbi's" have taken God's Word and changed it, and made it their own, and have added to it, their own rules and regulations, and made their word above even Yah's Word!

You even admit that the Rabbi's are the one's who lay these rules down, not God. You are placing what the Rabbi's say, above Yah's Word. No where in your statement do you proclaim anything within Yah's Word. You are just all about what "the Rabbi's say".

You said, "This is why the rabbis exempt them from certain mitzvot". The (Rabbi's) exempted women from wearing Tzitzit's, where Yah TOLD THEM TO WEAR THEM.

You said, "Why must we desire to emulate those things that the rabbis have agreed are for the men? Here again, you said, 'that the RABBI'S AGREED............are for men'. Do you see what you're saying? THE RABBI'S ARE NOT LAW!!! Yah's Word IS LAW!

Open your eyes. Please!

Yah's Word says that "the 'children' of Israel" need to wear Tassels on the fringes of their outer garments. The word 'children' here, just as in many other scriptures, means "ALL" of Yah's children, not just men, whether within the fold our outside of it, for ALL generations.

Stop depending on "THE RABBI'S" and start depending on Yah's straight undefiled Word, and His Word, ONLY.

If the command has never been fulfilled the way that you're suggesting, is it not you (rather than the Rabbis) who are changing the commandment? The decisions of the Rabbis are based on generations of Jewish observance. We can agree or disagree with them, of course, but we cannot just say that they are changing the Torah. Do you know what I mean? Why is it that you can declare how to perform the commands, not knowing Judaism at all, yet you think that the Rabbis are the ones making changes? It's kinda confusing, honestly.

(I write this as someone who believes in complete equality for men and women. I'm all about egalitarianism! I just think that your way of looking at it is wrong. I agree that women should feel free to wear tsitsit and kippah, if they so choose. But, I agree that women are not bound to such laws. I don't agree with the normal dictum that not being obligated to it means that you cannot do it. That's where I see the disconnect. Women are not bound to these things, but that doesn't mean that they should be prohibited from doing them.)
 
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... I agree that women should feel free to wear tsitsit and kippah, if they so choose. But, I agree that women are not bound to such laws. I don't agree with the normal dictum that not being obligated to it means that you cannot do it. That's where I see the disconnect. Women are not bound to these things, but that doesn't mean that they should be prohibited from doing them.)
This is where I fall on the spectrum.

I see where cute caps like in the 20s-50s are allowable, or feminine (only for women) kippot that are arguably not about being "the same as" or anything - or tzitziot if you're so led, without people sneering or judging your motives, or spitting / throwing things at you.

I have heard that there are some women who tie tzitziot to the corners of their headcovering. I find that a very interesting way to observe the commandment. It's uniquely feminine, without wearing a tallit katan (which is arguably masculine clothing)

kwim?
 
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yonah_mishael

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This is where I fall on the spectrum.

I see where cute caps like in the 20s-50s are allowable, or feminine (only for women) kippot that are arguably not about being "the same as" or anything - or tzitziot if you're so led, without people sneering or judging your motives, or spitting / throwing things at you.

I have heard that there are some women who tie tzitziot to the corners of their headcovering. I find that a very interesting way to observe the commandment. It's uniquely feminine, without wearing a tallit katan (which is arguably masculine clothing)

kwim?

Yeah, I understand. But, I also have a problem with "masculinity" and "femininity" in regards to clothing. It is so socially determined, which means that it changes with the generations. What men wore in the times of the Roman Empire is completely different from what men wear today. In Scotland, men wear skirt-like kilts. Who's to determine what is "masculine" and "feminine"? It's a judgment call, and I don't think that anyone should be judged one way or another based on such cultural values.

As regards the tallit katan (טַלִּית קָטָן), I've never seen a woman wearing one, but it's not something that I think is outlandish.

Traditionally, women are not required to perform any time-restricted mitzvot (מִצְוֺת). Wearing a tallit is connected to the day time (there's no command to wear a tallit at night), since the commandment says that you have to see the tsitsit (צִיצִית) — and historically, you have to have light (the sun) in order to see, and people didn't have electric lights that could be on all the time.

This is why women are not under obligation to the same set of prayers that men are obligated to. The prayer cycle is connected to the time of day. But, I see a distinction with the fact that women are supposed to light the candles of Shabbat, which is certainly time-restricted. It's clearly not an explanation that is across-the-board applicable. So, it also seems a strange reason to restrict what women can wear (as regards the tallit katan).
 
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Yeah, I understand. But, I also have a problem with "masculinity" and "femininity" in regards to clothing. It is so socially determined, which means that it changes with the generations. What men wore in the times of the Roman Empire is completely different from what men wear today. In Scotland, men wear skirt-like kilts. Who's to determine what is "masculine" and "feminine"? It's a judgment call, and I don't think that anyone should be judged one way or another based on such cultural values.

As regards the tallit katan (טַלִּית קָטָן), I've never seen a woman wearing one, but it's not something that I think is outlandish.

Traditionally, women are not required to perform any time-restricted mitzvot (מִצְוֺת). Wearing a tallit is connected to the day time (there's no command to wear a tallit at night), since the commandment says that you have to see the tsitsit (צִיצִית) — and historically, you have to have light (the sun) in order to see, and people didn't have electric lights that could be on all the time.

This is why women are not under obligation to the same set of prayers that men are obligated to. The prayer cycle is connected to the time of day. But, I see a distinction with the fact that women are supposed to light the candles of Shabbat, which is certainly time-restricted. It's clearly not an explanation that is across-the-board applicable. So, it also seems a strange reason to restrict what women can wear (as regards the tallit katan).
:clap: You "get" me! I'm glad to know I'm not so out there as some people think. This was also my understanding after studying the issue extensively for a couple of years.
 
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yonah_mishael

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:clap: You "get" me! I'm glad to know I'm not so out there as some people think. This was also my understanding after studying the issue extensively for a couple of years.

Well, I might actually be kinda "out there" with regard to traditional Jewish opinions, too. I'm not sure where people weigh in on these things.
 
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