1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a friendly forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting after you have posted 20 posts and have received 5 likes.
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

  2. Please check out our two newest forums, the "Buy, Sell or Trade" (link ) forum in the Society Category, and the "Conspiracy Theories" (link) forum in our Discussion and Debate Category.

Women and Tzitzit's

Discussion in 'Messianic Judaism' started by elishiva123, Jan 4, 2012.

  1. elishiva123

    elishiva123 Junior Member

    Messages:
    24
    Likes Received:
    0
    Marital Status:
    Married
    Faith:
    Messianic
    Hi family, I have a question for the women here. Do any of you wear Tzitzit's and if so, what do you wear them on? Thanks! I'd like to hear from you all. I'd appreciate it alot.

    Myself, I wear them. Who else does or doesn't?
     
  2. I did before I had kids. I make them (haven't since I had them), mostly my clothing style changed and I've not got any way to wear them right now. I had a lot of 4 cornered garments when I was a bit thinner and not a mommy.
     
  3. elishiva123

    elishiva123 Junior Member

    Messages:
    24
    Likes Received:
    0
    Marital Status:
    Married
    Faith:
    Messianic
    I found a way to wear them. I make Tallit Katans for women. They're really pretty and come with their own Tzitzits. If you wanna see some, you can email me at elishiva123 at ymail if you want. I'd be happy to show you them.

    It drove me nuts trying to figure out what sort of four cornered garment to wear them on, so with the help of Ruach, I am making them and now selling them to other women who want them. I am even opening an etsy shop to display them, and will also have a website open for them soon as well.

    Let me know if you'd like to see them.

    Yeshua bless you!
    Elishiva
     
  4. elishiva123

    elishiva123 Junior Member

    Messages:
    24
    Likes Received:
    0
    Marital Status:
    Married
    Faith:
    Messianic
    PS, dont let having kids stop you from wearing them. It's part of our submission to being obedient to this command. :)
     
  5. It stems more from the fact I have been sick and in pjs for the last 2 years... and prior to that at home and 100% attached to an infant. No time to change, dress, etc.
     
  6. elishiva123

    elishiva123 Junior Member

    Messages:
    24
    Likes Received:
    0
    Marital Status:
    Married
    Faith:
    Messianic
    Oh I know how that is, believe me. I may not know your circumstances, but I've had alot of issues myself, and still do have health issues.

    Thanks for sharing with me.

    If you'd ever be interesting in seeing my (Tzitzit Outer Garments "Togs") just drop me an email. I'd be happy to show them to ya.

    Yeshua bless you.
    Elishiva
     
  7. ChavaK

    ChavaK להיות טוב ולעשות טוב

    Messages:
    7,261
    Likes Received:
    23
    Gender:
    Female
    Marital Status:
    Widow/Widower
    Politics:
    US-Republican
    Faith:
    Judaism
    This is interesting, I have never heard of a non-Messianic Christian wearing them.
    What do you make them out of? Do you observe other parts of the Torah too?
    Can you post some photos here?
     
  8. elishiva123

    elishiva123 Junior Member

    Messages:
    24
    Likes Received:
    0
    Marital Status:
    Married
    Faith:
    Messianic
    Hi ChavaK, I will post pics tomorrow. I'm wondering, what do you mean, you've never heard of a non-Messianic Christian wearing them? What makes you think I'm a non-Messianic Christian? (Just wondering, not being sarcastic or anything). What gave you that impression? (Again, just curious). To be honest, Ruach drew me out of the Christian church about eight months ago and that's when I began my journey back to my Hebraic roots. I do observe other parts of the Torah, as well as the Brit Hadash too. I am a head coverer, I wear dresses, I am modest in my dressing, but really, most importantly, I submit to my King, Yeshua, daily, minute by minute, thru each day. He is Lord over me and my life and I submit to His Lordship. Have you ever seen the Tallit Katans on the internet, usually made for boys or men? They're a one piece rectangular garment with a neck hole you put over your head and lay on your shoulders and down the front and back of you. I make them, but for women, in pretty colors. I use only 100% cotton. I will have photos tomorrow. I sell them for $25.00 a piece. They're 42 inches long, from the bottom of the front to the bottom of the back, they're 18 inches wide. Theyre really cute. I made them because the Word says that we need to wear them on our "outer garments, with which we cover ourselves with". Well how many four cornered outer garments are available in todays world? Not many. So I came up with a style that I love, and that I hope other people will love as well. Because the object here is to help other women also obey the command, for "all" of the (children - bn) of Israel to wear them, not just men. Anyway that's a bit of my story. I'll post again on Thursday. Yeshua bless you. Have a good night.
     
  9. yedida

    yedida Ruth Messianic, joining Israel, Na'aseh v'nishma!

    Messages:
    9,779
    Likes Received:
    0
    Marital Status:
    In Relationship
    Faith:
    Non-Trinitarian-Messianic
    I have to say that I had wondered the same thing. I was pleased that you were observing the tzitziot mitzvah but confused by it also. Your icon is very generic, so I guess that is what caused the confusion (and also the fact is that it doesn't take much to put me there lately :D).
    I am looking forward to seeing your katans. Right now, I only have them on my tallit, which is a satiny white with one thin blue strip toward the middle of it. I wear it with a blue hand crocheted, beaded kippah. Both very feminine, I cherish them both, the tallit made especially for me by a beloved sister in my first Messianic congregation and the kippah she made for herself but I admired it so much she gifted it to me.
    Nice to meet you, and don't be a stranger to this neck of the woods!
     
  10. xDenax

    xDenax Active Member

    Messages:
    3,669
    Likes Received:
    0
    Gender:
    Female
    Marital Status:
    Married
    Faith:
    Judaism
    I do not wear tzitzit as it is not considered a commandment for women.

    Chava assumed you were a non-messianic Christian because that is the icon you are using.
     
  11. ChavaK

    ChavaK להיות טוב ולעשות טוב

    Messages:
    7,261
    Likes Received:
    23
    Gender:
    Female
    Marital Status:
    Widow/Widower
    Politics:
    US-Republican
    Faith:
    Judaism
    The icon you are using....it is for "traditional" Christians. Messianics
    use the Torah scroll. Sorry for the confusion.
    As I said, I have never heard of a Christian who wasn't also Messianic
    wear them, so I was curious.


    Okay, thanks for the clarification.

    Oh sure, my husband wears one. So yours are similar, just nice colors? Do you use different colors on the tzitzit, or just on the "vest" part they are attached to?

    Great! I am interested in seeing what they look like.
    How do you decide to tie the tzitzit? What tradition
    do you follow?


    Yes, not many, LOL. Are these to be worn under shirts/blouses (like a
    regular tallis katan) or they to be worn as an outer garment (like a coat-
    worn over a shirt).

    Thank you!
     
    anisavta likes this.
  12. ChavaK

    ChavaK להיות טוב ולעשות טוב

    Messages:
    7,261
    Likes Received:
    23
    Gender:
    Female
    Marital Status:
    Widow/Widower
    Politics:
    US-Republican
    Faith:
    Judaism
    Me neither....nor tallis gadol nor yarmulke.
    Correct.
     
  13. elishiva123

    elishiva123 Junior Member

    Messages:
    24
    Likes Received:
    0
    Marital Status:
    Married
    Faith:
    Messianic
    Hi sisters, I have to say, first, that I'm sorry that I have not had the time to take pics of the katans yet. I will have them for sure by Monday and post them up here.

    Second, I am a firm believer that Tzitzit's are most definately meant for women, and that women must wear them, as it is a command for all generations. Since I've only been barely studying Hebraic roots for about 8 months now, and am still only touching the surface, I am doing what I can to be as obedient as I can, to everything that I learn about, as I learn it. And Tzitzit's were pretty much the first thing that I came across as I read through the Tanakh, that I learned was a command for all generations. At first, I believed it was for both men and women. I spent a couple of months trying so hard to figure out some sort of "outer garment" to wear them on, still wearing them on a vest, in the meantime. But then as the months went on, the more I spoke with Messianic believers, the more I learned that wearing Tzitzit's "was not a command for women". Well that through me for a loop, as you can imagine. People were telling me that they were a mens garment and that since I was wearing them I was an "abomination" to Yahweh because any woman who wears a mens garment, well, would be an abomination to Yahweh. (Deut 22:5). Ok so I went and got rid of all of the Tzitzit's that I had made, and got on my face, and cried out to Yahweh begging His forgiveness for being an abomination to Him. Well, I will tell you this, I've never felt the Ruach speak to me, as much as I did right then. I heard what I thought sounded like ben-eye. Ok well I thought, how weird is that?? So, I went on a google search, typing in the word phonetically, praying that He would lead me to what He was trying to show me. Well I spent a whole day digging through google, and I opened up the Complete Jewish Bible, the Strongs, the Treasure of Scripture Knowledge, the Hebrew Lexicon, the Greek Lexicon, the Hebrew Interlinear bible, the Greek Interlinear bible, and Bible Gateway and prayed for Ruach to open my eyes to this and lead me to His truth on the subject. After a days worth of studying, I came across so many scriptures. I will put in here what I learned.

    In numbers 15:38-40 it says, "Speak to the (children) of Israel, tell them to make tassels on the corners of their garments. (It's in Deut 22:12 where I learned that it must be a four cornered outer garment.) Anyway, I went to the other books I had in front of me and saw that the word for (children) in Hebrew was Bni. BINGO! There was the word I heard in my head when I was apologizing! Well, from the Strongs I learned that this word has many meanings. It means children as in male (and/or) female, and also people as in group or nation. It also means son/grandson, or child, a member of a group or nation, young (as in animals), and a member of a guild, order or class. It even refers to lifeless things such as in sparks, stars, or arrows.

    I want to show you both a few scriptures where this same word, (1121) is used. ok?

    Exodus 31:13 "Speak thou, unto the (children) of Israel saying, 'verily my Sabbaths you shall keep, for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations , that you may know that I am Adonai that sanctifies you.

    Do you see the similarities in this verse and the one about Tzitzit's? It uses the same word children as this does. If Tzitzti's were only meant for men, then so would keeping the Sabbath, would only be for men, and we know this isn't so, so it can't be so, for Tzitzit's either.

    It is the Oral Law that tells us that Tzitzit wearing is only meant for men. It's from the Talmud, the Orthodox Jews who decided to expound on the Written Law, (as if Yahweh didn't do a good enough job with His own Written Law).

    Here are a few other scriptures which use the same word, bni, 1121.

    Exodus 29:45 "I will dwell among the (children) of Israel and will be their Elohim."

    If this same word, children 1121 bni meant only for men, then this would mean that Elohim meant that He would only dwell among the men of Israel. Do you see it yet?

    And in Leviticus 18:2 "Speak to the (children of Israel) and say to them, 'I am Adonai your Elohim' ". It would also mean that this verse is only meant for men.

    All of the scriptures that I listed here, and there are more too, use the word "children". (the number 1121 in the Strongs, the letters bn in Hebrew. These are intended to address the "nation" of Israel as a whole, just like in Numbers 15:37-40 about the Tzitzit's.

    If Yahweh wanted to refer specifically to men in the verse about Tzitzit's then dont you think that He would have used the Hebrew word for men? aner, Strong's G435. The use of this word is referred to in reference to a particular sex, so as to distinguish men from women. It also refers to age to distinguish between a man and a boy, or when mentioning something usually done by men and not women. The specific Strong's number when referring to women is 1135 and the Strong's number for the word Female is 5347. And there are many scriptures to prove those.

    Back during the time of dispersion the Israelite s took on the styles of clothing of the heathen around them. The style of 'outer garment' used by the people in bible days was an outer cloak, which was a full wrap around garment that went down to the ground from the bottom of the front to the bottom of the back. (sorta just the way a katan is now but much longer). Somewhere during the 17th century, the Orthodox Jews initiated the command to wear Tzitzit's again, as it was lost during their disbursement. Instead of just wearing them on their outer garments, like Yahweh originally told them to do, they decided to come up with a garment that would be the same for everyone, and that they'd make it only for men. (P.S. it is in the Talmud where you read all of the 'extra' instructions and supposed "commands" from Yahweh that women aren't supposed to wear them. ) Anyway this outer garment that the Orthodox Jews came up with, that would be one for everyone, was the Tallit. They decided that it would only be meant for special prayer times, and only during Synagogue prayer. Well that's all wrong, and totally against Torah. In Tanakh you can see it so clearly, that Yahweh meant for the Tzitzit's to be on our outer garments 'with which we cover ourselves'. Speifically so that we will see them while we are awake and remember His commands.

    Which brings me to another point. Do you really believe that Yahweh meant for only men to have to wear something that would remind them of His commands? I don't believe so. I believe He meant that everyone, including women, would have to have the Tzitzit's as daily reminders to keep His commands. He does tell us that we are a forgetful people, and that's the reason He wanted us to wear them, along with being separate from the heathens.

    These garments, are meant to be a garment we use to cover ourselves, so in trying to keep to His command I tried and tried to find on the internet at least a katan that I could wear over my clothes, to hang my Tzitzit's on. I couldnt find any. I found one, a white and pink one, pretty too, but it was for girls and they didnt have any womans sizes. (most likely because the world has gone so far from Yahwehs true commands). Anyway since I couldnt find any for women I was led by Ruach to make them. So I did. Now I have a line of womens katans called 'Togs'. (Tzitzit Outer Garments). These garments are cute. They are meant to be worn as an outer garment. They are sorta like an apron, only they are waist length. They do look just like katans, a one piece rectangle with a neck hole in the center, so that they drape down the front and back.

    I make the Tzitzit's 10-5-6-5. But I can make them the other way as well. I use either Satin thread or 100% cotton thread. All with a blue Techelet in them. I'm sorry I haven't had the chance to post pics yet, but I will get to that, by Monday.

    Whew, ok, I've talked long enough.

    Please post your thoughts. Anything you'd like to say, I'd like to hear.

    Yeshua bless you.
    Elishiva
     
  14. xDenax

    xDenax Active Member

    Messages:
    3,669
    Likes Received:
    0
    Gender:
    Female
    Marital Status:
    Married
    Faith:
    Judaism
    I'm sorry, perhaps you are confused because Chava and I both posted in here. Neither of us are Messianic. I answered because this topic pertains to women and I just tend to respond to topics that address women (there aren't many over here). I can't say this is always the case but generally, those who use the star of david icon are non-messianic Jews.

    So, it's very obvious you are wearing it? If you can, I'd like to see a picture of one actually being worn. Not just a picture of the garment itself. I'm having a difficult time picturing what it actually would look like on a person. It's just like an apron?
     
  15. elishiva123

    elishiva123 Junior Member

    Messages:
    24
    Likes Received:
    0
    Marital Status:
    Married
    Faith:
    Messianic
    Dina, I'm confused because you gave me the impression that you are Messianic. You have a star of David as your avitar and you were over here posting in a Messianic forum. Therefore, I thought you were Messianic and was answering your questions with that in mind. I did not realize that Chava wasn't either, for the same reasons.

    Yes it's very obvious that I wear them, because Yahweh tells us in His Word to wear them on our 'outer garments with which we cover ourselves with' so that we can keep a reminder to ourselves to keep His commandments.

    I'm not sure I'll post a photo of me wearing one. But I will post photos of some of them, on Monday when I can get the photos finished. That way you'll at least be able to see what some of them look like.

    I also thought Chava was Messianic because she said her husband wears one. That doesn't necessarily mean that they're Messianic though, they could be Orthodox. I don't know, either way.

    Ok, so, I'll be back on Monday.
     
  16. yedida

    yedida Ruth Messianic, joining Israel, Na'aseh v'nishma!

    Messages:
    9,779
    Likes Received:
    0
    Marital Status:
    In Relationship
    Faith:
    Non-Trinitarian-Messianic
    A little heads up in need here. Our wonderful religious Jewish brothers and sisters fly the Star of David. Most of the Messianics fly the scroll (Jew and gentile), but there are some Messianic Jews who fly traditional to orthodox Christian icons. Those you'll just have to figure out as you converse with them, for not all "Christian" icons are Messianic Jews, but just traditional/orthodox Christians who come in to visit. But it's not as daunting as it sounds to find your way around here.
     
  17. ChavaK

    ChavaK להיות טוב ולעשות טוב

    Messages:
    7,261
    Likes Received:
    23
    Gender:
    Female
    Marital Status:
    Widow/Widower
    Politics:
    US-Republican
    Faith:
    Judaism
    Ah, welcome to the world of icon confusion, LOL.
    This is a wide variety of people who post here. The greatest percentage is of course Messianic. Most use the scroll icon, but there are some that use the star of david icon even though they are not Jewish/Jews. Go figure.:)
    Then there are Jews who use the cross icon. And some who use a variety of Christian icons, or "other" icon (the ying/yang looking one).Once you
    have been here a while, it's obvious who is who. AFAIK, the only non-Messianic Jews here who use the star of david icon are Dena, Yonah,
    jcpro, Simchat Torah and myself. If you see other people using star of david icons, they
    are probably gentile messianics. Whew! How confusing it gets.


    Great! I am looking forward to seeing them.
    Yes my husband and I are non-Messianic Orthodox Jews.
    Looking forward!
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2012
  18. xDenax

    xDenax Active Member

    Messages:
    3,669
    Likes Received:
    0
    Gender:
    Female
    Marital Status:
    Married
    Faith:
    Judaism
    I'm not sure I will be here next week (I'm going out of town and haven't decided if I'll take my computer) but I look foward to seeing a picture when I do return.
     
  19. Sarahtruthseeker

    Sarahtruthseeker Newbie

    Messages:
    1
    Likes Received:
    0
    Marital Status:
    Married
    Faith:
    Christian
    Is it possible that we should not be selling things of Yah?
    Pro 23:23 Buy the truth, and do not sell it,
    Also wisdom and instruction and understanding.
     
  20. yedida

    yedida Ruth Messianic, joining Israel, Na'aseh v'nishma!

    Messages:
    9,779
    Likes Received:
    0
    Marital Status:
    In Relationship
    Faith:
    Non-Trinitarian-Messianic
    Let us know when you find the store that will give away the CDs, the Bibles, the books, the tzadaka boxes, the tallits, mezuzzahs, the crosses and other jewelry - I'll be the second one there (you having been there first, of course). :D
    It's a good thought but we'd be mighty spiritually lacking....(There may come a day when we will have to do without all those things, but why should we when we don't have to?)
     
Loading...