Woman charged with attempted murder in failed coat hanger abortion

[PreachersWife2004]

Once again, a fetus is not a human life. It has human DNA, and it is living tissue, but it's not a human, and I'm not going to pretend that it is.

If you're going to characterize anything you disagree with as rationalizing, then you are not arguing honestly. And if you're going to make snide swipes at my personal beliefs, then you won't be posting on this board very long.

I didn't take that as a swipe, Sepia. Many Christians view abortion as wrong, and many Christians assume that other Christians feel the same way. It is, I will admit, strangely odd when I find Christians who are pro-abortion. And in the world of Christianity, I believe that you're either pro-life, or pro-abortion. Choice doesn't enter into it. You can't, as a Christian, rightly say "I don't believe in abortions, but I think every woman has a right to choose to have them".

That's not arguing your claim of being a Christian, either. That's merely pointing out what *I* believe as a Christian. If you feel convicted by it, maybe you should ask yourself why.

 

[dgiharris]

...., I believe that you're either pro-life, or pro-abortion. Choice doesn't enter into it. You can't, as a Christian, rightly say "I don't believe in abortions, but I think every woman has a right to choose to have them".

That's not arguing your claim of being a Christian, either. That's merely pointing out what *I* believe as a Christian. If you feel convicted by it, maybe you should ask yourself why.

If we lived in a NON-SECULAR society than I would 100% agree with you.

however, we live in a SECULAR society and as such that means that our laws should not be based on religious beliefs. Therefore, it is perfectly fine for me as a Christian to say I don't believe in abortion yet I think every woman as a right to make the choice.

Otherwise, I would be arguing to mandate all of my religious beliefs. Not some, not half, all of them. That is the logical end point of a NON-Secular society. You believe according to this religious text, or we put a bullet in your head. You follow everything according to this religious text or we put a bullet in your head.

I find the many Christians are unable to see exactly how their beliefs on this issue impact all rights and all laws.

You can't cherry pick the laws you want to use the bible to refute and/or support. Sorry, it doesn't work that way. Those who don't understand that don't understand what Freedom entails.

If your argument requires the bible in order to prove its validity, then you are making a losing argument unless you are arguing matters of the soul and your relationship with God. Otherwise, if it is a legal earthly matter, the bible has no place in it unless we live in a Non-Secular society and as of 1787 we do NOT.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

I'm not asking for our laws to be set by Christian standards. I disagree wholeheartedly with the notion that if it's legal on the secular level, that it's okay at the spiritual level. We are told in the bible that God's law trumps man's law. Every. Time.

On a Christian Forum such as this, I don't see anything wrong with Christians expecting that other Christians follow the bible.

 

[SepiaAndDust]

I didn't take that as a swipe, Sepia. Many Christians view abortion as wrong, and many Christians assume that other Christians feel the same way. It is, I will admit, strangely odd when I find Christians who are pro-abortion. And in the world of Christianity, I believe that you're either pro-life, or pro-abortion. Choice doesn't enter into it. You can't, as a Christian, rightly say "I don't believe in abortions, but I think every woman has a right to choose to have them".

That's not arguing your claim of being a Christian, either. That's merely pointing out what *I* believe as a Christian. If you feel convicted by it, maybe you should ask yourself why.

I'm not likely to put up with you challenging my Christian walk or defining Christianity for me, either, PW.

Back off.

 

[Followers4christ]

I'm not likely to put up with you challenging my Christian walk or defining Christianity for me, either, PW.

Back off.

There are numerous teachings in Scripture that make it abundantly clear what God’s view of abortion is. Jeremiah 1:5 tells us that God knows us before He forms us in the womb. Psalm 139:13-16 speaks of God’s active role in our creation and formation in the womb. Exodus 21:22-25 prescribes the same penalty—death—for someone who causes the death of a baby in the womb as for someone who commits murder. This clearly indicates that God considers a baby in the womb to be as human as a full-grown adult. For Christians, abortion is not a matter of a woman’s right to choose. It is a matter of the life or death of a human being made in God’s image (Genesis 1:26-27; 9:6).

Pro-abortion is a unchristian stance as it's a assault on God's creation.

Here is a great link that goes in to detail on the bible and abortion:

https://carm.org/bible-abortion

Also a link goes in to detail can a Christian be pro-choice:

http://www.gotquestions.org/Christian-pro-choice.html

 

[SepiaAndDust]

There are numerous teachings in Scripture that make it abundantly clear what God’s view of abortion is. Jeremiah 1:5 tells us that God knows us before He forms us in the womb. Psalm 139:13-16 speaks of God’s active role in our creation and formation in the womb.

Poetry. Not literal.

Exodus 21:22-25 prescribes the same penalty—death—for someone who causes the death of a baby in the womb as for someone who commits murder.

Not sure I can trust that. The two verses just before that say “When a man strikes his slave, male or female, with a rod and the slave dies under his hand, he shall be avenged. But if the slave survives a day or two, he is not to be avenged, for the slave is his money."

Pretty obviously, that whole section is neither infallible nor inspired.

 

[Truthfrees]

I'm still trying to figure out why you feel that DNA is important at all.

I haven't rationalized anything. Human tissue is not human life.

If you're talking about a mole, polyp, or tumor you're absolutely correct.

But if you're talking about a baby, it's for sure a human life.

A mole, polyp, or tumor doesn't have a beating heart at 3 weeks.

 

[Truthfrees]

And in the world of Christianity, I believe that you're either pro-life, or pro-abortion. Choice doesn't enter into it. You can't, as a Christian, rightly say "I don't believe in abortions, but I think every woman has a right to choose to have them".

Excellent point!

Pro-life isn't at all anti-choice.

We're against choosing to do extreme violence to a helpless innocent little life, when there's so many "choices" of contraception, or adoption.

 

[Armoured]

I'm not asking for our laws to be set by Christian standards. I disagree wholeheartedly with the notion that if it's legal on the secular level, that it's okay at the spiritual level. We are told in the bible that God's law trumps man's law. Every. Time.

On a Christian Forum such as this, I don't see anything wrong with Christians expecting that other Christians follow the bible.

Follow the Bible all you like, just don't pretend it argues against abortion.

 

[Armoured]

If you're talking about a mole, polyp, or tumor you're absolutely correct.

But if you're talking about a baby, it's for sure a human life.

A mole, polyp, or tumor doesn't have a beating heart at 3 weeks.

So what makes a heart bear special? as noted, earthworms have more heart beats than a human will ever have, but so what?

 

[Truthfrees]

So what makes a heart bear special? as noted, earthworms have more heart beats than a human will ever have, but so what?

That means the earthworm and a baby are not just a lump of tissue.

They're both living entities.

Tumors, moles, polyps, etc are lumps of tissue.

A cadaver is also a lump of tissue that used to be a living entity.

 

[Truthfrees]

There are numerous teachings in Scripture that make it abundantly clear what God’s view of abortion is. Jeremiah 1:5 tells us that God knows us before He forms us in the womb. Psalm 139:13-16 speaks of God’s active role in our creation and formation in the womb. Exodus 21:22-25 prescribes the same penalty—death—for someone who causes the death of a baby in the womb as for someone who commits murder. This clearly indicates that God considers a baby in the womb to be as human as a full-grown adult. For Christians, abortion is not a matter of a woman’s right to choose. It is a matter of the life or death of a human being made in God’s image (Genesis 1:26-27; 9:6).

Pro-abortion is a unchristian stance as it's a assault on God's creation.

Here is a great link that goes in to detail on the bible and abortion:

https://carm.org/bible-abortion

Also a link goes in to detail can a Christian be pro-choice:

http://www.gotquestions.org/Christian-pro-choice.html

Follow the Bible all you like, just don't pretend it argues against abortion.

A. The Bible says we're made in God's image.

B. The scriptures F4C gave showed that of all God's awesome creatures, we humans are knit together in the womb by God, and HE even knows us BEFORE we're being knit together in the womb.

C. That means the tiny little me that started in my mother's womb was a living being precious in God's sight.

D. That also means killing me when I'm still in the womb is murder.

E. Murder is wrong.

Line upon line, scripture clearly leads us to know that abortion is wrong.

 

[Armoured]

A. The Bible says we're made in God's image.

B. The scriptures F4C gave showed that of all God's awesome creatures, we humans are knit together in the womb by God, and HE even knows us BEFORE we're being knit together in the womb.

C. That means the tiny little me that started in my mother's womb was a living being precious in God's sight.

D. That also means killing me when I'm still in the womb is murder.

E. Murder is wrong.

Line upon line, scripture clearly leads us to know that abortion is wrong.

From C on, that's all a matter of interpretation and extrapolation. I'm not saying it's invalid, but don't pretend the Bible says it. It doesn't.

 

[Truthfrees]

A. The Bible says we're made in God's image.

B. The scriptures F4C gave showed that of all God's awesome creatures, we humans are knit together in the womb by God, and HE even knows us BEFORE we're being knit together in the womb.

C. That means the tiny little me that started in my mother's womb was a living being precious in God's sight.

D. That also means killing me when I'm still in the womb is murder.

E. Murder is wrong.

Line upon line, scripture clearly leads us to know that abortion is wrong.

From C on, that's all a matter of interpretation and extrapolation. I'm not saying it's invalid, but don't pretend the Bible says it. It doesn't.

C and D would be extrapolation, but E isn't.

Murder is still wrong. It's one of the "10" as well as other places in scripture.

A baby in a womb is alive until it's murdered.

So taking C and D out is fine with me.

A, B, and E still make it wrong scripturally to murder a baby in the womb.

MURDERING IN UTERO BABIES IS WRONG BECAUSE:
A. The Bible says we're made in God's image.

B. The scriptures F4C gave showed that of all God's awesome creatures, we humans are knit together in the womb by God, and HE even knows us BEFORE we're being knit together in the womb.

E. Murder is wrong.

 

[Armoured]

C and D would be extrapolation, but E isn't.

Murder is still wrong. It's one of the "10" as well as other places in scripture.

A baby in a womb is alive until it's murdered.

So taking C and D out is fine with me.

A, B, and E still make it wrong scripturally to murder a baby in the womb.

E doesn't fit, because murder is the illegal killing of a person, which fails on two counts. 1, abortion is legal, so it can't be murder 2, define "person"? Because by a lot of perfectly logical metrics a foetus, especially an early term one, simply doesn't qualify.

 

[Truthfrees]

E doesn't fit, because murder is the illegal killing of a person, which fails on two counts. 1, abortion is legal, so it can't be murder 2, define "person"? Because by a lot of perfectly logical metrics a foetus, especially an early term one, simply doesn't qualify.

"Legally" you're correct, that the laws of this land NOW allow in utero babies to be murdered, but there was a time when it WASN'T legal.

"Scripturally" the laws of this land are NOW wrong. In the past they were "scripturally" right.

 

[Armoured]

"Legally" you're correct, that the laws of this land NOW allow in utero babies to be murdered, but there was a time when it WASN'T legal.

"Scripturally" the laws of this land are NOW wrong. In the past they were "scripturally" right.

That's a circular argument. Scripturally, abortion isn't murder where it's legal.

Look, I oppose abortion, don't get me wrong, but the Bible simply doesn't address abortion directly, and the closest it does, it would seem to OK it, arguably. Or at least makes it clear it's not dealt with the same way murder is. I'm sorry, but it just doesn't.

 

[Truthfrees]

That's a circular argument. Scripturally, abortion isn't murder where it's legal.

Look, I oppose abortion, don't get me wrong, but the Bible simply doesn't address abortion directly, and the closest it does, it would seem to OK it, arguably. Or at least makes it clear it's not dealt with the same way murder is. I'm sorry, but it just doesn't.

I'm not seeing how you arrive at your conclusion.

Please clarify. What do you see scripture says to these questions?

1. Murder is wrong: yes or no

2. Murdering a human being is wrong: yes or no

3. An old person is a human being: yes or no

4. A baby is a human being: yes or no

5. An in utero baby is a human being: yes or no

 

[Armoured]

I'm not seeing how you arrive at your conclusion.

Please clarify. What do you see scripture says to these question?

1. Murder is wrong: yes or no

2. Murdering a human being is wrong: yes or no

3. An old person is a human being: yes or no

4. A baby is a human being: yes or no

5. An in utero baby is a human being: yes or no

Scripturally or legally?

Tell me your definition of "human being" and we'll see if an in utero foetus fulfils the requirements without any glaring logical fallacies.

Scripturally, it certainly doesn't.

 

[Truthfrees]

Ignoring "legally" for now, what do you see scripture says to these questions scripturally?

1. Murder is wrong: yes or no

2. Murdering a human being is wrong: yes or no

3. An old person is a human being: yes or no

4. A baby is a human being: yes or no

5. An in utero baby is a human being: yes or no