Woman charged with attempted murder in failed coat hanger abortion

[Armoured]

Ignoring "legally" for now, what do you see scripture says to these questions scripturally?

1. Murder is wrong: yes or no

2. Murdering a human being is wrong: yes or no

3. An old person is a human being: yes or no

4. A baby is a human being: yes or no

5. An in utero baby is a human being: yes or no

5, no.

 

[Truthfrees]

5, no.

So 1-4 you would say scripture says is a human, but scripture doesn't say 5 is a human?

IF so, can you please clarify why scripture doesn't say 5 is a human?

1. Murder is wrong: yes or no

2. Murdering a human being is wrong: yes or no

3. An old person is a human being: yes or no

4. A baby is a human being: yes or no

5. An in utero baby is a human being: yes or no

 

[Armoured]

So 1-4 you would say scripture says is a human, but scripture doesn't say 5 is a human?
1. Murder is wrong: yes or no

2. Murdering a human being is wrong: yes or no

3. An old person is a human being: yes or no

4. A baby is a human being: yes or no

5. An in utero baby is a human being: yes or no

a human being, no.

 

[Truthfrees]

a human being, no.

Why not if everyone else is?

 

[Armoured]

Why not if everyone else is?

Because it specifically deals with in utero foetuses differently to how it deals with human beings, for one thing?

 

[Truthfrees]

Because it specifically deals with in utero foetuses differently to how it deals with human beings, for one thing?

How is that?

What scripture are you basing that on?

 

[PreachersWife2004]

I'm not likely to put up with you challenging my Christian walk or defining Christianity for me, either, PW.

Back off.

I defined MY Christianity, Sepia. MINE. Not yours. Again, if you're feeling convicted by my definition, ask yourself why.

Follow the Bible all you like, just don't pretend it argues against abortion.

Does your priest know you disagree with the Catholic Church on this?

 

[Armoured]

How is that?

What scripture are you basing that on?

Exodus 21:22-24

 

[PreachersWife2004]

Exodus 21:22-24

That's a misapplication of that scripture. The initial portion is just that if the pregnant woman is harmed and the baby is born, then a fine is imposed, whatever that may be.

If you read further, it talks about any following harm. Life for life.

 

[SepiaAndDust]

I defined MY Christianity, Sepia. MINE. Not yours. Again, if you're feeling convicted by my definition, ask yourself why.



Does your priest know you disagree with the Catholic Church on this?

You need to stop. Like now. You are not the Religion Police.

I'm not feeling convicted, I'm feeling attacked by a bully with an Administrator badge.

Armoured, likewise, doesn't answer to you. What he does and does not agree with is between him and God. I'm sure that everyone would thank you kindly to keep your snark out of it.

 

[SepiaAndDust]

As to scripture and the sanctity of life:

17 Kill all the Midianite boys, and kill all the Midianite women who have had sexual relations.
18 But save for yourselves the girls who have not had sexual relations with a man.

 

[Armoured]

That's a misapplication of that scripture. The initial portion is just that if the pregnant woman is harmed and the baby is born, then a fine is imposed, whatever that may be.

If you read further, it talks about any following harm. Life for life.

To the woman, not to the foetus. The foetus is treated differently.

 

[Armoured]

I defined MY Christianity, Sepia. MINE. Not yours. Again, if you're feeling convicted by my definition, ask yourself why.



Does your priest know you disagree with the Catholic Church on this?

I don't disagree with the Catholic Church. But even if I did, so what, you trying to drive someone else away from the church? Think about your comments, please.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

I don't disagree with the Catholic Church. But even if I did, so what, you trying to drive someone else away from the church? Think about your comments, please.

The Catholic Church has changed her stance on abortion? When?

If being honest about abortion is driving you away from the church, I think the problem is in you, and not me.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

You need to stop. Like now. You are not the Religion Police.

I'm not feeling convicted, I'm feeling attacked by a bully with an Administrator badge.

Armoured, likewise, doesn't answer to you. What he does and does not agree with is between him and God. I'm sure that everyone would thank you kindly to keep your snark out of it.

YOU are the one who needs to stop seeing attacks where there are none. And don't try to bring my staff position into this - it has no bearing whatsoever. I'm not being snarky, either. I wrote what I believe. If you have a problem with what I believe, too bad. I have not said you were not a Christian, I did not question your Christianity. I pointed out what *I* believe.

Call me a bully again and I will report it. THAT is against the rules and you know it.

And Armoured answers to the Catholic Church, which believes that abortions are wrong.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a5.htm

Seems to me the Catholic Church doesn't think women are supposed to be able to choose abortion. This is one area where Confessional Lutherans have followed the Church's teachings in that regard.

Abortion

2270 Human life must be respected and protected absolutely from the moment of conception. From the first moment of his existence, a human being must be recognized as having the rights of a person - among which is the inviolable right of every innocent being to life.72

Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you.73
My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately wrought in the depths of the earth.74

2271 Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured abortion. This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable. Direct abortion, that is to say, abortion willed either as an end or a means, is gravely contrary to the moral law:

You shall not kill the embryo by abortion and shall not cause the newborn to perish.75
God, the Lord of life, has entrusted to men the noble mission of safeguarding life, and men must carry it out in a manner worthy of themselves. Life must be protected with the utmost care from the moment of conception: abortion and infanticide are abominable crimes.76

2272 Formal cooperation in an abortion constitutes a grave offense. The Church attaches the canonical penalty of excommunication to this crime against human life. "A person who procures a completed abortion incurs excommunication latae sententiae,"77 "by the very commission of the offense,"78 and subject to the conditions provided by Canon Law.79 The Church does not thereby intend to restrict the scope of mercy. Rather, she makes clear the gravity of the crime committed, the irreparable harm done to the innocent who is put to death, as well as to the parents and the whole of society.

2273 The inalienable right to life of every innocent human individual is a constitutive element of a civil society and its legislation:

"The inalienable rights of the person must be recognized and respected by civil society and the political authority. These human rights depend neither on single individuals nor on parents; nor do they represent a concession made by society and the state; they belong to human nature and are inherent in the person by virtue of the creative act from which the person took his origin. Among such fundamental rights one should mention in this regard every human being's right to life and physical integrity from the moment of conception until death."80

"The moment a positive law deprives a category of human beings of the protection which civil legislation ought to accord them, the state is denying the equality of all before the law. When the state does not place its power at the service of the rights of each citizen, and in particular of the more vulnerable, the very foundations of a state based on law are undermined. . . . As a consequence of the respect and protection which must be ensured for the unborn child from the moment of conception, the law must provide appropriate penal sanctions for every deliberate violation of the child's rights."81

2274 Since it must be treated from conception as a person, the embryo must be defended in its integrity, cared for, and healed, as far as possible, like any other human being.

Prenatal diagnosis is morally licit, "if it respects the life and integrity of the embryo and the human fetus and is directed toward its safe guarding or healing as an individual. . . . It is gravely opposed to the moral law when this is done with the thought of possibly inducing an abortion, depending upon the results: a diagnosis must not be the equivalent of a death sentence."82

2275 "One must hold as licit procedures carried out on the human embryo which respect the life and integrity of the embryo and do not involve disproportionate risks for it, but are directed toward its healing the improvement of its condition of health, or its individual survival."83

"It is immoral to produce human embryos intended for exploitation as disposable biological material."84

"Certain attempts to influence chromosomic or genetic inheritance are not therapeutic but are aimed at producing human beings selected according to sex or other predetermined qualities. Such manipulations are contrary to the personal dignity of the human being and his integrity and identity"85 which are unique and unrepeatable.

 

[Truthfrees]

Exodus 21:22-24

Looking at this in a 100 translations I see several that say miscarriage, and several say premature birth.

"No further injury" can include a live baby in a pre-mature birth, but not in a miscarriage. The original doesn't say which.

So I can see why you believe what you do.

But if you look at the other translations, I hope you can see why I and others believe this scripture says abortion is wrong and punishable.

I guess we can only leave it to each person to find out from God what God feels about the pre-born baby.

But there is scripture for either position.

But here's the translations that make more sense with the scriptures that say we're fearfully and wonderfully made by God, and HE knows us before we are born.

If God knows us before we are born, that speaks of personhood, not tissuehood.

Exodus 21:22-24 New King James Version (NKJV)
22 “If men fight, and hurt a woman with child, so that she gives birth prematurely, yet no harm follows, he shall surely be punished accordingly as the woman’s husband imposes on him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. 23 But if any harm follows, then you shall give life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,

Exodus 21:22-23 Amplified Bible (AMP)
22 “If men fight with each other and injure a pregnant woman so that she gives birth prematurely [and the baby lives], yet there is no further injury, the one who hurt her must be punished with a fine [paid] to the woman’s husband, as much as the judges decide. 23 But if there is any further injury, then you shall require [as a penalty] life for life,

Exodus 21:22-23 Darby Translation (DARBY)
22 And if men strive together, and strike a woman with child, so that she be delivered, and no mischief happen, he shall in any case be fined, according as the woman's husband shall impose on him, and shall give it as the judges estimate. 23 But if mischief happen, then thou shalt give life for life,

Exodus 21:22-23 Expanded Bible (EXB)
22 “Suppose two men are fighting and ·hit [injure] a pregnant woman, causing ·the baby to come out [or a miscarriage; C the Hebrew is not clear whether dead or alive]. If there is no further ·injury [harm], the man who caused the accident must pay money—whatever amount the woman’s husband says and the court allows. 23 But if there is further ·injury [harm], then ·the punishment that must be paid is [L you shall give] life for life,

Exodus 21:22-23 GOD’S WORD Translation (GW)
22 “This is what you must do whenever men fight and injure a pregnant woman so that she gives birth prematurely. If there are no other injuries, the offender must pay whatever fine the court allows the woman’s husband to demand. 23 If anyone is injured, the offender must pay a life for a life,

Exodus 21:22-23 Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)
22 “When men get in a fight and hit a pregnant woman so that her children are born prematurely but there is no injury, the one who hit her must be fined as the woman’s husband demands from him, and he must pay according to judicial assessment. 23 If there is an injury, then you must give life for life,


Exodus 21:22-23 Lexham English Bible (LEB)
22 “‘And if men fight and they injure a pregnant woman, and her children go out and there is not serious injury, he will surely be fined as the woman’s husband demands concerning him and as the judges determine.23 And if there is serious injury, you will give life in place of life,


Exodus 21:22-23 Modern English Version (MEV)
22 If men fight and hurt a pregnant woman so that her child is born prematurely, yet there is no serious injury, then he shall be surely punished in accordance with what the woman’s husband demands of him, and he shall pay as the judges determine. 23 But if there is any serious injury, then you shall give life for life,



Here's a whole list to look at to see how many translations say miscarriage, and how many say pre-mature birth. https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Exodus 21:22

 

[Truthfrees]

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