WOF teachings?

High Fidelity

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Thinking on this..they probably looked at me weird thinking I didnt know how to work their machine.
For example. One was always asking some kind of question to do with faith. Saying faith was key. Yes its true. But then he would add that ppl didnt know how to 'use' faith. He then started saying a bunch of stuff that sounded like Christians Science teaching. Like the key to good health was repeating certain scriptures out loud.

Im sure this is what this church lady did. She would repeat by his stripes I am healed over and over. I heard through church that she actually had some kind of cancer but she would never admit to it. It seems like..these kinds of believers want to believe they already immortal?? Even when evidence is so to the contrary? That they are already living in a kingdom so they entitled to every luxury and worldly riches as thats how God wants them to live? And that anyone poor and sick simply doesnt have any faith?

Well, a lot of people say Christian Science is neither Christian or scientific. But yes, a lot to be wary of.
 
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Goodbook

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One of the first churches I attended i found was a prosperity one. I did not stay for long, cos after you got baptised and joined up you had to start tithing. Like they would MAKE you and that was why they constantly praying about jobs and finances for their congregations cos if nobody was working, they couldnt get enough money to work their big sound system, and then the pastors and leaders couldnt do anything...as it was all dependent on people coming to hear them preach every week. As they had no other source of income i suppose. They couldnt work regular jobs as...'god' didnt call them, but their members had to find work and well paying jobs or else.

If you didnt tithe you made to feel really guilty and unblessed. Thats what I remember. They also had preprinted tithe envelopes in case you forgot and left them on every seat before you went into the dark cavity of their auditorium, where you got assualted by flashing lights and music. The sermon would be about faith and they would teach faith is a FORCE.
 
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High Fidelity

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One of the first churches I attended i found was a prosperity one. I did not stay for long, cos after you got baptised and joined up you had to start tithing. Like they would MAKE you and that was why they constantly praying about jobs and finances for their congregations cos if nobody was working, they couldnt get enough money to work their big sound system, and then the pastors and leaders couldnt do anything...as it was all dependent on people coming to hear them preach every week. As they had no other source of income i suppose. They couldnt work regular jobs as...'god' didnt call them, but their members had to find work and well paying jobs or else.

If you didnt tithe you made to feel really guilty and unblessed. Thats what I remember. They also had preprinted tithe envelopes in case you forgot and left them on every seat before you went into the dark cavity of their auditorium, where you got assualted by flashing lights and music. The sermon would be about faith and they would teach faith is a FORCE.

Didn't you get the memo? Pray hard enough and give enough to your local church and you'll be healthy and wealthy ;)
 
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Dave-W

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Im sure this is what this church lady did. She would repeat by his stripes I am healed over and over. I heard through church that she actually had some kind of cancer but she would never admit to it. It seems like..these kinds of believers want to believe they already immortal?? Even when evidence is so to the contrary? That they are already living in a kingdom so they entitled to every luxury and worldly riches as thats how God wants them to live? And that anyone poor and sick simply doesnt have any faith?

Yes - that is the belief. If you are not wealthy and in good health you LACK FAITH. It can be said in a very condemning way.

An amusing anecdote: THe church I attended in Lansing MI back in the early '80s was near an up and coming WOF congregation. One day the wife of one of our asst pastors was out shopping with their kids and saw a small van that she liked. They had been talking about buying a new car. So the owner sees her looking it over and tells her "You want one like this? Just confess it and God will give it to you." At which point her 10 year old son says to him "Why don't ya just give us yours and you can confess to get a new one."
 
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Scottmcc1

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How would you live out 2 Corinthians 10:3-5?

"For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh, 4 for the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh, but divinely powerful for the destruction of fortresses. 5 We are destroying speculations and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and we are taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ,"

For me this is what Word of Faith is all about.
 
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Goodbook

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One of my workmates, who belonged to this church (no idea why, maybe cos it was the nearest one and many from her culture were going...she could be with those who spoke her language) said the pastor would boast about playing golf and his flash car. I dont think he ever invited many of the other members to play unless they in his inner circle of leaders.

Im like ok whatever. So hes rich, so what?
But the i noticed in another church i started going to the same thing. pastor would preach feel good messages on being 'positive' and then boast at how great it was to be a pastor. Like he was amazed that anybody would go and listen to him each week. That it was the best job ever. So im thinking..well, evreryone should be a pastor then and live off your congregation if its so great. Cos i dont think he had any other kind of job. But if you were unemployed and poor in the church you were just looked down on as the lowest of low..and still expected to give and give.

Then if you axtually pointed out some scriptures about how the people in acts behaved with money those ppl on that forum really did not like it! They actually REFUSED to look at those scriptures, I would ask them what does Peter say in this chapter, what does Paul say, i would give them the reference and they would say 'nothing' or completely avoid the question.
Cos they are robbing Peter to pay Paul! But the holy spirit can never be bought or sold!!!
 
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High Fidelity

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But the i noticed in another church i started going to the same thing. pastor would preach feel good messages on being 'positive'

That's part of the problem with people like Joel Osteen. Christianity is about a lot more than the 'feel good' verses and a lot of people that go to those churches or give them too much attention definitely have an air of being told they're perfect one too many times.
 
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Goodbook

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Hmm just got txt from the friend who was kinda first into the wof teaching and church when i became a christian that her family were moving to australia.

She said that they only knew a month before they were going. I had no idea. I dont want to analyse too much as many i know go to australia for jobs etc. but I do know a lot of prsopertiy gospel teaching got birthed there first and made its way to nz. She said god willing a lot and thats usually something that muslims say. I know they constantly worried about finances all the time and how healthy they were....I remember she first told me i had to look up all the promises in the Bible and then praise God a lot then I could have them and just in general keep nagging God about it in prayer.

The tricky thing with wof teaching is that..its sometimes hard to tell if the person whos bought into it really truly is corrupted by it or just deceived.
 
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DiscipleHeLovesToo

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then there's that guy that said 'all things are possible to those who believe'! He also said something about killing plants with words, and chunking mountains into the sea by speaking to them! i heard He also said that faith would make you whole, and He claimed that His followers would be able to heal the sick and cast out devils! He even said that believers could calm the wind and the sea!!! and talk about nutty advice on finance, He said that if you give out of selfless love, your gift would be multiplied back to you! and He said that if you store your riches in 'heaven', that it wouldn't lose value from inflation or swings in the money markets, and that no one could steal it from you! He said that if you focus on Him you wouldn't have to plan for retirement; that all the things you need would be 'added to you'! and believe it or not, He said that anything you give up to follow Him would be multiplied back to you in this life 100 fold, and that people would hate you and speak badly about you because of that!!! He even claimed that if you believe Him and what He said, that you'll have eternal life!!!

what was His name again? oh yea - Jesus Christ of Nazareth!

of course, if you think like most of the people in the world, you won't have to worry about any of that happening to you...
 
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Goodbook

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Of course, i believe everything you say!
But, why are you mad at me for?! Or you talkin to someone else?

Thats my Jesus too, but he dont speak to my wallet man. He speaks to my heart, and my heart isnt in my wallet.

Thats the one thing that poisons everythin, cos the LOVE of MONEY is the root of ALL EVIL. Which some have coveted after, and...have erred from the faith. They only love Jesus for what they can GET, just like Judas. They will pierce themselves with many sorrows, cos its completely obvious what they are really after.
 
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DiscipleHeLovesToo

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i'm not mad sister; just trying to get you to see that there is no faith that's not 'word-based' in Christianity. it sounds like you ran across a group that don't understand faith; a crowd that thinks that actions such as 'proper confessions' make God move for them. but God has already moved, and confession is a key to receiving what He's already given.

there are basically 3 'types' of confessions:

-a confession of convenience; this is where those around you are confessing something that you don't necessarily understand and agree with, but you confess it too just to fit in

-a confession of convincing; this is where you've seen a promise from God in His word that you know is for every Christian, and although you believe it in your heart, your head isn't convinced yet because of opposing reports from your senses and the world. faith comes by hearing and hearing the word of God, so as you confess the word of God that's in your heart, your head begins to believe it as well, and your thinking process begins to change.

-a confession of conviction; this is where you've not only seen a promise from God in His word that you know is for every Christian and believed it in your heart, but have meditated on that promise, and having practiced confessing it, it has become part of your thinking process - so when something rises up against that particular Truth, you automatically confess the Truth in response to condemn the lie the devil's trying to sell you.

for example; you have a cold, and you speak against it, but nothing seems to happen - you still have all the symptoms of a cold - and those symptoms are arguing with you about your healing; they are speaking to you. but once you incorporate 1 Peter 2:24 into your thinking (as referring to Isaiah 53:5, which the Holy Spirit through Matthew 8:17 interpreted to mean physical healing); this argument from your physical body will produce a confession of conviction that releases the power of God to heal that cold and 'condemn the tongue that rises against you in judgment' which are the symptoms your body is using to argue with you about your healing. most people can hold up in faith for a while; but faith never fails - people just get tired and decide it doesn't work after all - there is no time limit on faith, no point where continuing in faith is futile. and unless you have a cold right now, you have already received your healing from every cold you've ever had.

Isa 54:17 KJV
(17) No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, and their righteousness is of me, saith the LORD.

it's really about delegated authority...
 
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DiscipleHeLovesToo

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as far as prosperity goes, why should the devil and his bunch have all the wealth in the world? how will we help those who do not yet know what great things God has given them unless we are prosperous to the point where we can freely give to them on His behalf?
 
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High Fidelity

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as far as prosperity goes, why should the devil and his bunch have all the wealth in the world? how will we help those who do not yet know what great things God has given them unless we are prosperous to the point where we can freely give to them on His behalf?

There's a difference between having enough wealth from your efforts to distribute to the needy and preaching that if your faith is strong enough and you donate to your local church you will be healthy and wealthy.

The likes of Joel Osteen, for example, I think just tell themselves that to justify calling themselves Christian, which presupposes loving their neighbour, compassion etc, whilst living in a $10m mansion.
 
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Goodbook

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ok.
Im not begrudging people of their earthly riches here.
But..often the ones that are earthly rich actually are putting those who are not down. It comes across in their manner and it's not cool. It's like - well you obviously have no faith then. Um no.

The riches Jesus speaks of moths cannot eat or destroy. So..it seems to me they have a different gospel...and argue in a way that is like what you are arguing.

The thing is, we can learn to be content whether we are exalted or not. Our identity is in Christ not our earthly circumstances. But it seems people still want to make it out that money is King in their lives and all christians ought to be rolling in it.
 
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Goodbook

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When death and life are in the power of the tongue, it means cursing and blessing others, like words can hurt people. It is not meant for ourselves. All our gifts are given so others can benefit. But look at Judas, pretend follower of Christ, used whatever gift he had selfishly. Annas and Sapphira kept part of the money back for THEMSELVES.

If we are given anything, it is NOT for ourselves. Yet I see so many WOF actually boast about all the riches they been given, and keep it all to themselves, in effect saying, no God blessed me, get your own.
 
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Goodbook

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I subscribe to a daily scripture reading and just thought I'd share this as seemed relevant to what been mulling over lately...i think a WOF taught believer would turn it all around and claim the abundant life simply meant they had wads of cash to spend at the shops and never have any kind of physical weakness.



John 10:10
(10) The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
King James Version Change your email Bible version

What does He mean by "life . . . more abundantly"? A problem arises when discussing this concept due to the apparent subjectivity of the term "abundant." What is abundant living for one person may be absolutely unsatisfying for another. A hard-charging, A-type businessman - into exotic vacations, sports cars, and rock climbing - would not consider a rocking chair on the porch, a vegetable garden out back, and a weekly round of golf at the local course to be fulfilling, yet they would probably suit a retired senior citizen just fine. One person's bowl of cherries is another's bowl of cherry pits.

The Greek word Jesus uses in John 10:10 to describe the kind of life He came to teach His disciples is perissón, meaning "superabundant," "superfluous," "overflowing," "over and above a certain quantity," "a quantity so abundant as to be considerably more than what one would expect or anticipate." In short, He promises us a life far better than we could ever envision, reminiscent of I Corinthians 2:9, "Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, nor have entered into the heart of man the things which God has prepared for those who love Him" (seeIsaiah 64:4). Paul informs us that God "is able to do exceedingly abundantly above all that we ask or think" (Ephesians 3:20).

However, before we begin to have visions of palatial homes, classic automobiles, around-the-world trips, and wads of pocket money, we need to step back and consider what God says comprises "life." Once we determine His view of living, we will have a better grasp of what kind of blessings we can expect as Christ's disciples. All we need to do is glance around at our and our brethren's situations to know that wealth, prestige, position, and power in this world are not high-priority items on God's list of blessings (I Corinthians 1:26-29). In terms of economic, academic, and social strata, most of us come from the lower and middle classes, and we tend to remain in a situation similar to the one in which we were called (compare I Corinthians 7:20-24).

Perhaps the most telling biblical definition of life - particularly eternal life - is uttered by Jesus Himself in John 17:3: "And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent." Note that this definition makes no mention of length of days, health, prosperity, family, occupation - in fact, the only thing it does mention is knowing God!

What can we take from this?

» God is not overly concerned with the physical circumstances of our lives. It is enough that He assures us that we need not worry about what we will eat or wear (Matthew 6:25-32;Philippians 4:19).

» Eternal life, the kind of life in which a Christian is truly interested, is not determined by duration but by a relationship with God. This is why, once we are converted and impregnated with the gift of the Holy Spirit, we are said to have eternal life already (I John 5:11-13), though not, of course, in its fullness.

» Eternal life - the life God offers us through Jesus Christ and His teaching - is thus about quality, not quantity. Put another way, the abundant life is life as God lives it (Ezekiel 33:10-11; I Peter 2:21; I John 2:6), for once we truly come to know God, we will desire to emulate Him.

» Physical blessings, then, may or may not be byproducts of God's way of life; neither our wealth nor our poverty is a sure indication of our standing with God. Certainly, God desires that we "prosper in all things and be in health" (III John 2), but the bottom line is "I have no greater joy than to hear that my children walk in truth" (verse 4), not that we live like royalty.

» Finally, a Christian's life revolves around, as Peter puts it, "grow[ing] in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ" (II Peter 3:18). This suggests that the abundant life is a process of learning, practicing, and maturing, as well as failing, recovering, adjusting, enduring, and overcoming because, in our present state, "we see in a mirror, dimly" (I Corinthians 13:12).

As humans, we are naturally oriented toward material things, but as Christians, our perspective must change. Paul admonishes, "Set your mind on things above, not on things on the earth. For you died [in baptism], and your life is hidden with Christ in God" (Colossians 3:2-3). To us, life - and our perception of abundant life - is a whole new ballgame!



— Richard T. Ritenbaugh
 
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DiscipleHeLovesToo

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There's a difference between having enough wealth from your efforts to distribute to the needy and preaching that if your faith is strong enough and you donate to your local church you will be healthy and wealthy.

The likes of Joel Osteen, for example, I think just tell themselves that to justify calling themselves Christian, which presupposes loving their neighbour, compassion etc, whilst living in a $10m mansion.

ok; let me take a different approach here. you've judged that a $10m mansion is too much - where is the upper limit? would a $1m house be ok? how about $0.5m house? what about a $100k house? if you can judge what's too much; you can judge what is not too much - where is the upper limit in your judgment? and why do you get to decide?

i'm not a follower of Joel Olsteen, but i'm not going to help the devil publicly criticize and condemn that man either; why do you think you are qualified to judge him or anyone else besides yourself? are you so familiar with his personal finances that you know how much he gives? would it be ok for him to live in a $10m mansion if he gives $100m to help the needy each year? what if someone gave him that house - would you expect him to sell it and live in an efficiency apartment? could you move into a smaller place and give more to the needy? are you living on exactly what you need and giving the rest to the needy? is this why you feel you are able to judge him?

remember, as you judge, so shall you be judged...
 
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DiscipleHeLovesToo

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When death and life are in the power of the tongue, it means cursing and blessing others, like words can hurt people. It is not meant for ourselves. All our gifts are given so others can benefit. But look at Judas, pretend follower of Christ, used whatever gift he had selfishly. Annas and Sapphira kept part of the money back for THEMSELVES.

If we are given anything, it is NOT for ourselves. Yet I see so many WOF actually boast about all the riches they been given, and keep it all to themselves, in effect saying, no God blessed me, get your own.

are you saying that it's not really the confession thing that bothers you about people you put into the group you call WOF; it's how much money they have?
 
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