Wisdom from Ancient Theologians

[thecolorsblend]

The topic of the armour of God which your post erroneously quoted. Christians are given the sword of the word of God as their offensive weapon against the wiles of the devil. Why do you as a professing christian use a different sword to combat other professing Christians and attempt to disarm those Christians who are using the God-given sword of the word of God?

I think the error here is yours.

St. Ignatius mentioned soldiers and their pay; not Vincent. And St. Ignatius wasn't quoting Ephesians or 2 Timothy. He was using similar language but making a different point.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

I think the error here is yours.

St. Ignatius mentioned soldiers and their pay; not Vincent. And St. Ignatius wasn't quoting Ephesians or 2 Timothy. He was using similar language but making a different point.

ya that quote was fictious too. Anyway I have no interest in playing make believe with you.

 

[thecolorsblend]

ya that quote was fictious too. Anyway I have no interest in playing make believe with you.

It's fictitious? I've found it in several places. What makes you say it is fictitious?

 

[Wgw]

OK.
Only faith produces holy and righteous works.

I think that statement is not incorrect even from an EO/OO perspective.

 

[Wgw]

Homily XIII of St. Basil the Great:

The wise Solomon, distinguishing the times for the various affairs of life, and assigning to each one what is suitable, said: "There is a time for all, and a time for every thing; a time to be born, and a time to die." But, making a slight change in the sentence of the wise man, in proclaiming to you the saving Gospel, I say to you; there is a time to die, and a time to be born. What reason is there for this inversion? Solomon treating of birth, and dissolution, in conformity with the nature of bodies, spoke of birth before death, (for it is impossible to die without being born): but as I am about to treat of spiritual regeneration, I place death before life: since it is by dying to the flesh, that we come to be born in the Spirit; as even the Lord says: "I will kill, and I will make to live." Let us then die, that we may live. Let us mortify the carnal feeling, which cannot be subject to the law of God, that a strong spiritual affection may arise in us, through which we may enjoy life and peace. Let us be buried together with Christ, who died for us, that we may arise again with Him, who proffers new life to us. For other matters there is a time peculiarly appropriate: a time for sleeping and for waking, a time for war and for peace: but the whole period of man's life is the time for baptism. For as the body cannot live unless it breathe: neither can the soul live unless she know the Creator: for ignorance of God is death to the soul: and he that is not baptized, is not enlightened; and without light neither can the eye perceive sensible objects, nor the soul contemplate God. All time, then, is opportune to receive salvation through baptism—night or day, hour or minute, even the least conceivable space of time. But it is just to regard as more suitable, the time which is more nearly connected with it: and what time is more closely connected with baptism than Easter day, since the day itself is a memorial of the resurrection, and baptism is the powerful means for our resurrection? On resurrection day, then, let us receive the grace by which we rise again. On this account the Church with a loud voice calls from afar her catechumens, that as she already has conceived them, she may at length usher them into life, and weaning them from the milk of catechetical instruction, give them to taste of the solid food of her dogmas. John preached a baptism of penance, and all Judea went forth to him: the Lord proclaims a baptism whereby we are adopted as children; and which of those who hope in Him, will refuse to obey his call? That baptism was introductory, this is perfective; that separated from sin, this unites with God. The preaching of John was of one man, and he drew all to penance, and you, instructed by the prophets: "Wash yourselves: be clean:"—admonished by the Psalmist: "Come ye to Him, and be enlightened:"— having the joyful proclamation of the Apostles: "Do penance and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, for the remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit:"—invited by the Lord Himself, who says: "Come to me all you that labour and are burdened, and I will refresh you:" (for all these passages have occurred in today's lesson)—you, I say, tarry, and hesitate, and put off.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I think that statement is not incorrect even from an EO/OO perspective.

Very true. Faith is the foundation of everything. Without it there is nothing at all. If it is true saving faith, and one submits to God, then holy and righteous works, changes, actions, thoughts, etc. should follow.

 

[Erose]

OK.
Only faith produces holy and righteous works.

Actually it is grace.

 

[Rick Otto]

Very true. Faith is the foundation of everything. Without it there is nothing at all. If it is true saving faith, and one submits to God, then holy and righteous works, changes, actions, thoughts, etc. should follow.

Thank you.

 

[Fireinfolding]

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Where it says,

Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

By faith into this grace there.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Thank you.

You're welcome.

I hope I have not inadvertently stepped into a faith vs. grace chicken and egg debate.

I'm not a fan of trying to put God into boxes. (I'm not at all saying you were doing that, Rick, by quoting your post.)

This is not exactly relevant, but it reminds me of a conversation I was having elsewhere with people of different backgrounds (mostly Orthodox) about "how are we saved?" and it reminded of my (mostly failed) thread here a year or two ago on here where I was interested in compiling everything the Scriptures said about salvation. And they say, in various combinations, believe, be baptized, have faith, confess the Name of The Lord, and so on. With inference, they say MANY things.

My point being, I believe God works through various means, and is generous with Himself/grace. I think He seeks ways to reach and save us - rather than setting up particular hoops (however many or in whatever order people imagine) through which we must jump. I don't mean to say that we don't have to do anything - we do. But I just think on God's part, He is interested in saving mankind. Sometimes on our part, in our discussions, we are interested in pinning Him down expressly and so "putting Him in a box".

I just wanted to be clear that I'm not interested in doing that.

But I do agree that faith is a necessary foundation of our holy and righteous works, thoughts, etc.

I mean, any counterfeit we may be able to muster on our own (and people do) while expressly rejecting faith in God - are simply born out of pride or some other useless human ambition, and so by definition are neither holy nor righteous.

 

[Wgw]

You're welcome.

I hope I have not inadvertently stepped into a faith vs. grace chicken and egg debate.

I'm not a fan of trying to put God into boxes. (I'm not at all saying you were doing that, Rick, by quoting your post.)

This is not exactly relevant, but it reminds me of a conversation I was having elsewhere with people of different backgrounds (mostly Orthodox) about "how are we saved?" and it reminded of my (mostly failed) thread here a year or two ago on here where I was interested in compiling everything the Scriptures said about salvation. And they say, in various combinations, believe, be baptized, have faith, confess the Name of The Lord, and so on. With inference, they say MANY things.

My point being, I believe God works through various means, and is generous with Himself/grace. I think He seeks ways to reach and save us - rather than setting up particular hoops (however many or in whatever order people imagine) through which we must jump. I don't mean to say that we don't have to do anything - we do. But I just think on God's part, He is interested in saving mankind. Sometimes on our part, in our discussions, we are interested in pinning Him down expressly and so "putting Him in a box".

I just wanted to be clear that I'm not interested in doing that.

But I do agree that faith is a necessary foundation of our holy and righteous works, thoughts, etc.

I mean, any counterfeit we may be able to muster on our own (and people do) while expressly rejecting faith in God - are simply born out of pride or some other useless human ambition, and so by definition are neither holy nor righteous.

On this point, I believe grace enables the faith response, which in turn enables good works, which in turn constitute metanoia and faciliate theosis.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Faith IS a gift of God, yes?

So in a sense it must be offered to us through grace.

But like I said, I don't want to get involved in picking Scriptures apart to argue such things. (I'm also not saying that you are doing so either.)

I am reminded of how often the answer to many questions concerning the Christian faith is "both/and" rather than "either/or" ... which is why I don't wish to start arguing proofs. And I also don't want to derail the thread.

 

[Wgw]

Faith IS a gift of God, yes?

So in a sense it must be offered to us through grace.

But like I said, I don't want to get involved in picking Scriptures apart to argue such things. (I'm also not saying that you are doing so either.)

I am reminded of how often the answer to many questions concerning the Christian faith is "both/and" rather than "either/or" ... which is why I don't wish to start arguing proofs. And I also don't want to derail the thread.

Indeed, I agree with your post.

 

[Aelred of Rievaulx]

Justin Martyr First Apology 65-67
After we have thus baptised him who has believed and has given his assent, we take him to those who are called brethren where they are assembled, to make common prayers earnestly for ourselves and for him who has been enlightened and for all others everywhere, that, having learned the truth, we may be deemed worthy to be found good citizens in our actions and guardians of the commandments, so that we may be saved with eternal salvation.
When we have ended the prayers, we greet one another with a kiss.
Then bread and a cup of water and of mixed wine are brought to him who presides over the brethren, and he takes them and offers praise and glory to the Father of all in the name of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and gives thanks at some length that we have been deemed worthy of these things from him. When he has finished the prayers and thanksgiving, all the people present give their assent by saying, 'Amen.'
Amen is Hebrew for 'So be it'.
And when the president has given thanks and all the people have assented, those whom we call deacons give to each one present a portion of the bread and wine and water over which thanks have been given (eucharistethentos), and take them to those who are not present.
And we call this food 'thanksgiving' (eucharistia); and no one may partake of it unless he is convinced of the truth of our teaching, and has been cleansed with the washing for forgiveness of sins and regeneration, and lives as Christ handed down.
For we do not receive these things as common bread or common drink; but just as our Saviour Jesus Christ, being incarnate through the word of God, took flesh and blood for our salvation, so too we have been taught that the food over which thanks have been given by the prayer of the Word who is from him, from which our flesh and blood are fed by transformation, is both the flesh and blood of that incarnate Jesus.
For the apostles in the records composed by them which are called gospels, have handed down what was commanded them: that Jesus took bread, gave thanks, and said, 'Do this for my remembrance; this is my body'; and likewise he took the cup, gave thanks, and said, 'This is my blood'; and gave to them alone.
And the evil demons have imitated this and ordered it to be done also in the mysteries of Mythras. For as you know or may learn, bread and a cup of water are used with certain formulas in their rites of initiation.
And thereafter we continually remind one another of these things. Those who have the means help those in need; and we are always together.
And we bless the Maker of all things through his Son Jesus Christ and through the Holy Spirit over all that we receive.
And on the day called Sun-day an assembly is held in one place of all who live in a town or country, and the records of the apostles or writings of the prophets are read for as long as time allows.
Then, when the reader has finished, the president in a discourse admonishes and exhorts us to imitate these good things.
Then we all stand together and offer prayers; and as we said before, when we have finished praying, bread and wine and water are brought up, and the president likewise offers prayers and thanksgivings to the best of his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution, and everyone participates in the elements over which thanks have been given; and they are sent through the deacons to those who are not present.
And the wealthy who so desire give what they wish, as each chooses; and what is collected is deposited with the president.
He helps orphans and widows, and those who through sickness or any other cause are in need, and those in prison, and strangers sojourning among us; in a word, he takes care of all those who are in need.
And we all assemble together on Sun-day, because it is the first day, on which God, having transformed the darkness and matter made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour rose from the dead the same day; for they crucified him the day before Saturday; and the day after Saturday, which is Sun-day, he appeared to his apostles and disciples, and taught them these things which we have presented to you for your consideration.

 

[Aelred of Rievaulx]

I guess Christians were worshipping on Sunday since before Justin Martyr (who assumes it) less that 100 years after Easter and they believed that just as the Christ became incarnate so too the bread and wine become the body and blood of Christ and the wealthy gave for the orphans and widows.

 

[Rick Otto]

You're welcome.

I hope I have not inadvertently stepped into a faith vs. grace chicken and egg debate.

I'm not a fan of trying to put God into boxes. (I'm not at all saying you were doing that, Rick, by quoting your post.)

This is not exactly relevant, but it reminds me of a conversation I was having elsewhere with people of different backgrounds (mostly Orthodox) about "how are we saved?" and it reminded of my (mostly failed) thread here a year or two ago on here where I was interested in compiling everything the Scriptures said about salvation. And they say, in various combinations, believe, be baptized, have faith, confess the Name of The Lord, and so on. With inference, they say MANY things.

My point being, I believe God works through various means, and is generous with Himself/grace. I think He seeks ways to reach and save us - rather than setting up particular hoops (however many or in whatever order people imagine) through which we must jump. I don't mean to say that we don't have to do anything - we do. But I just think on God's part, He is interested in saving mankind. Sometimes on our part, in our discussions, we are interested in pinning Him down expressly and so "putting Him in a box".

I just wanted to be clear that I'm not interested in doing that.

But I do agree that faith is a necessary foundation of our holy and righteous works, thoughts, etc.

I mean, any counterfeit we may be able to muster on our own (and people do) while expressly rejecting faith in God - are simply born out of pride or some other useless human ambition, and so by definition are neither holy nor righteous.

I see no debate.
By grace we exist. By faith, we do so in righteousness, not of our own because faith is a gift.
Before it being irresistibly gifted to us, we are damned. We have no inherently redeeming features.
That is how we need salvation.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Thanks again.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I see no debate.
By grace we exist. By faith, we do so in righteousness, not of our own because faith is a gift.
Before it being irresistibly gifted to us, we are damned. We have no inherently redeeming features.
That is how we need salvation.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Thanks again.

You're welcome, and thank you.

No, I didn't think you were debating. Forgive me, I'm just cautious in this area of the forums. It's as much a reminder to myself as anything. I don't want to debate over things that are trivialities, and situations where both sides can be right in a sense.

And the things I feel strongly about that are not trivialities, it's probably better I don't debate either.

But since I know that you and I can speak cordially with each other (and also in the sense of teasing you just a tiny bit ) I could actually disagree with you on a technicality.

When you said that there was nothing redeeming about us (and technically that IS correct if you mean redeeming in the sense of what Christ did for us - there is indeed nothing we can do for ourselves to redeem ourselves!) ........ but on the other hand, if we are talking about value, we are inestimably valuable in the sight of God, for the reason of bearing His image. So much so, of course, that Christ came and died for us.

Erased a bit more, as it might get into points we don't agree on? (Or maybe we do.) But I think it's safe to say this is common ground?

Anyway, Good morning, Rick. Haven't spoken with you much recently, as I haven't been in GT that much. I hope you and your family are well.

 

[Rick Otto]

You're welcome, and thank you.

No, I didn't think you were debating. Forgive me, I'm just cautious in this area of the forums. It's as much a reminder to myself as anything. I don't want to debate over things that are trivialities, and situations where both sides can be right in a sense.

And the things I feel strongly about that are not trivialities, it's probably better I don't debate either.

But since I know that you and I can speak cordially with each other (and also in the sense of teasing you just a tiny bit ) I could actually disagree with you on a technicality.

When you said that there was nothing redeeming about us (and technically that IS correct if you mean redeeming in the sense of what Christ did for us - there is indeed nothing we can do for ourselves to redeem ourselves!) ........ but on the other hand, if we are talking about value, we are inestimably valuable in the sight of God, for the reason of bearing His image. So much so, of course, that Christ came and died for us.

Erased a bit more, as it might get into points we don't agree on? (Or maybe we do.) But I think it's safe to say this is common ground?

Anyway, Good morning, Rick. Haven't spoken with you much recently, as I haven't been in GT that much. I hope you and your family are well.

We are, in spite of everything!(lol).
Yes, I love a good tease, and you are personable, so I trust you, even when I know you "aren't right".

If you check your bible, I am like about 99.999% sure that wherever you see God valuing "us", the "us" are his "elect" (see the first few versus of Eph), NOT all of humanity. I don't mean to be the booger in the sugar, but I started caring about God and His truth at 3& 1/2 yrs old. I will never forget that moment. It was my first epiphany.
I have pre-verbal and pre-walking memories, too. I remember my first nightmare and lots of stuff like that.
I don't glow in the dark though, so I don't think of myself as special.
I grew up the youngest of four intense and verbal personalities, so I grew up trying harder and longer to be considered an equal. Sorry if I become overbearing.
You seem very even tempered. I respect and admire that. Thanks for your attention.

 

[All4Christ]

@RickOtto - I don't want to get into a deep debate here, but I've been taking a closer look at some of those verses recently. I'd like to propose an alternative interpretation.

"3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved." - Ephesians 1:3-6

For the sake of argument, consider the use of "us" to mean the Church, rather than individuals. The Ephesians were Gentiles. It's a pretty powerful thing to think about: God predestined not only Jews, but also Gentiles to be a part of the Church and therefore to be adopted as sons of God. This wasn't an afterthought. Rather, this was predetermined to occur from the foundation of the world.

So why are some predetermined to be adopted while others are not? God is all-knowing and is not bound by time. God foresaw who has and will accept His gift. Because of their future acceptance, He predetermined that they will be adopted as sons of God. Again, keep in mind that He predetermined that Gentiles who accept His gift, not just a Jews, were to be adopted as well.

The original interpretation you proposed does not work with many other scriptures. God desires all men to have eternal life! John 3:16, 1 Timothy 2:3-6, 1 John 2:2

This is supported by the writings of the early Church Fathers.

St. Gregory Palamas explained this concept well:

We ought to understand that while God knows all things beforehand, yet He does not predetermine all things. For He knows beforehand those things that are in our power, but He does not predetermine them. For it is not His will that there should be wickedness nor does He choose to compel virtue. So that predetermination is the work of the divine command based on fore-knowledge. But on the other hand God predetermines those things which are not within our power in accordance with His prescience (NPNF Series 2 Vol. IX p. 42).

St. Ireneous of Lyons

For it was not merely for those who believed on Him in the time of Tiberius Caesar that Christ came, nor did the Father exercise His providence for the men only who are now alive, but for all men altogether, who from the beginning, according to their capacity, in their generation have both feared and loved God, and practised justice and piety towards their neighbours, and have earnestly desired to see Christ and to hear his voice (Against the Heretics 4.22.2).

 

[~Anastasia~]

We are, in spite of everything!(lol).
Yes, I love a good tease, and you are personable, so I trust you, even when I know you "aren't right".

If you check your bible, I am like about 99.999% sure that wherever you see God valuing "us", the "us" are his "elect" (see the first few versus of Eph), NOT all of humanity. I don't mean to be the booger in the sugar, but I started caring about God and His truth at 3& 1/2 yrs old. I will never forget that moment. It was my first epiphany.
I have pre-verbal and pre-walking memories, too. I remember my first nightmare and lots of stuff like that.
I don't glow in the dark though, so I don't think of myself as special.
I grew up the youngest of four intense and verbal personalities, so I grew up trying harder and longer to be considered an equal. Sorry if I become overbearing.
You seem very even tempered. I respect and admire that. Thanks for your attention.

Thanks Rick. I remember you and I tried to have the conversation. And perhaps I don't have a mature understanding of Calvinism (or perhaps the variety I was taught was just a little more hard-lined) but yes, that's the part I backed over and erased. It was tending into that anyway.

I understand not wanting to back off from something you believe in that way. I had something of an epiphany of my own just about two years ago, and this is probably the most important of several factors that led to my decision to become Orthodox. But what it means for me is that I cannot undo what I understand now. But I will say, we (mankind) need to remain aware that there is often a balance in many Truths with other Truths, and to completely ignore the other side of the coin can create a mis perception of reality. I believe certainly that God loves us all ... but I don't wander into what I used to hear as the "God loves you and wants you to have a wonderful life and blessings" that never mentioned repentance or humility or taking up one's cross, etc.

But what really interested me about your post is your description of your childhood. I am either the same or opposite you in each point. I was the oldest (an only at that point) but I remember pondering eternal questions at four years old (you beat me by six months, lol). I especially had trouble with the concepts of eternity and the infinite, though to be honest, at that point, the thought of eternal life made more sense to me than death. I have pre verbal and pre walking memories too - my earliest was something less than six months and was only a fuzzy concept of myself and my mother feeding me - but I don't think I remember my first nightmare.

Anyway, I always thought I was a little strange for all of that - maybe not exactly special. But I didn't expect anyone else would relate. It does make me wonder other things about how your formation led to how you encounter things of faith - but I'm afraid that really would derail the thread. I just tend to wonder about such things, I guess.

I am glad to hear that your family is well. I pray you have a blessed year, since we are near the beginning of it. In whatever form that takes in God's wisdom and mercy.