Wisconsin manufacturer takes away Muslim prayer breaks

[TerranceL]

Typical anti-business, anti-capitalism rant. I think we're done here.

You can really spot the people who've never actually had jobs in manufacturing.

When you've got a manufacturing line running and 10% of your crew leaves to do something else, everything gets shut down.

 

[redleghunter]

Then find an employer that will let you stop working to pray.

If they were a practitioner of Santeria would it be fine for them to bring animals to work to sacrifice? It is a important tenant of their religion after all.

Great point. It's a job. You work prescribed hours and have breaks and lunch.

 

[rambot]

I'm guessing smoke breaks are no longer allowed either?

 

[TerranceL]

I'm guessing smoke breaks are no longer allowed either?

Seems you're guessing wrong, unscheduled breaks aren't allowed. If the smoker can't wait till the scheduled break time they've got serious problems.

 

[rambot]

Seems you're guessing wrong, unscheduled breaks aren't allowed. If the smoker can't wait till the scheduled break time they've got serious problems.

Sorry. I am familiar with unscheduled smoke breaks; otherwise I know them to be called "breaks".

 

[ChristsSoldier115]

A manufacturing plant in Wisconsin has changed its prayer policy to prevent dozens of Muslim employees from worshipping on the job — and threatened to fire them if they don’t like it, workers said.

Ariens Company, a Brillion-based maker of snow blowers and lawn mowers, used to allow the 53 Muslims who work at its headquarters plant to take two breaks a day — for five minutes at a time — to fit in their ritual prayers, according toWBAY.

But that abruptly changed Thursday, when the company sent out a statement saying it “does not allow for unscheduled breaks in production” — even for prayer.

http://m.nydailynews.com/news/natio...-takes-muslim-prayer-breaks-article-1.2499671

“If someone tells you, ‘you pray on your break,’ and the break time is not the prayer time, it will be impossible to pray,” employee Masjid Imam Hasan Abdi told WBAY."............

It all depends on the company policy, if you signed the dotted line that said they would respect your religious beliefs, then raise heck over it, but if you didn't.. then they have no obligation to respect your beliefs. Maybe people should be reading their contracts before they sign the dotted line.

 

[HannahT]

I suppose we could look at this from the other direction. Did they approach this in the honorable way their faith requires of them. You are live in a manner your faith requires if they wish to be as pious as they claim.

Did the people in question take a job knowing that they would be allowed 2- 10 minute breaks, and a lunch? They mention that prior to hiring. Depending on the amount of hours - or your union contract - it is clearly laid out by law or contract. they had the personal responsibility - per their religious tenets - to inform their employer prior to hiring of this religious need. If they can't work out the proper times, etc - are they indeed following their faith properly by taking the job? I would say no.

If they went into the job knowing what is required of them? They are being irresponsible to their faith, and should be looking for work that accommodates their needs to show themselves of good character. That is also covered by their faith. It's rather disingenuous to go into a job knowing you can't be accommodated, and then demand it afterwards. It's deceitful - which is also covered within their faith (in other words, you shouldn't be deceitful).

I have worked with Muslims before, and they were very engaged and active within their mosques. They were true to their faith, and they never demanded or requested this type of thing. They worked well with the accommodations that were given.

This type of thing needs to go both ways. Accommodate their faith as much as possible, and they also have to do their part by being reasonable to the employer.

To me? It sounds like someone looking to grab headlines - or a name for themselves.

 

[TerranceL]

Sorry. I am familiar with unscheduled smoke breaks; otherwise I know them to be called "breaks".

In canada they let you go on breaks whenever you please?

 

[rambot]

In canada they let you go on breaks whenever you please?

To be clear, I know nothing about manufacturing jobs but yes, I am aware of people who have had a couple of short smoke breaks throughout the day (they either stayed a bit late or came a bit early) at their time.

 

[andy b]

Who gets to decide what's the legitimate?



Unless your employer is operating in the capacity of a State Actor, I don't see why they'd be confined to the same rules as the government.

...as I stated in my other post, there are numerous constitutionally protected practices that we can't do on the clock when we're supposed to be working. I can't just walk away from my desk to go outside and protest for 10 minutes at random times of the day...if I did that, I'd be reprimanded for doing so (rightfully)


It's also grossly unfair to the other employees in some situations.

For example, in a salaried position (where there is no clocking in or out for the day), if the expectation is that you're supposed to give the company your time from 9-5, it's not fair to everyone else who's supposed to stay at their desk working while their co-workers take an additional 20-30 minutes worth of paid breaks for the day.

In an hourly factory environment, it could also cause some contention in a couple of scenarios. The obvious one, if they're not clocking out to do it...the other, if it's a situation where one person can't do their job until the other person has done theirs...and they have to wait (or stay late) because the other person was taking additional breaks throughout the day.

No matter how you slice it, it's a form of special treatment...any time you're allowing one group of people to leave their workstations in circumstances were everyone else can't, that's going to cause a contention among the crew.

Agree 100% I'm paid to work 8 hours a day ,......what's so hard about getting up earlier and praying before work

 

[ThatRobGuy]

To be clear, I know nothing about manufacturing jobs but yes, I am aware of people who have had a couple of short smoke breaks throughout the day (they either stayed a bit late or came a bit early) at their time.

Covering the difference by coming in early or staying late works if you're in a position where you're in the capacity of an individual contributor. However, if your in a team environment that requires someone else getting something done before you can do your part, people taking additional breaks can be frustrating.

I say that as a person who was in that situation in a warehouse job (which is what I did to put myself through college prior to entering the IT world a decade ago).

I still even remember the guy's name who caused me to have to work late on many a day lol...

Essentially, his job was to was to load up the boxes with X number of each kind of bolt/screw/washer/etc... (we boxed and stored various kits for assembly of different kinds of office furniture), when he was done, it was up to me and another guy to take the boxes to the right part of the warehouse and shelve them accordingly and update the inventory system in the computer, we had certain numbers we had to hit for the day. On days when the boss was out, he'd take additional (and extended) smoke breaks, and he wouldn't get his part of the work done until 5:30 (which means we were stuck there until 6:30 at the earliest), very frustrating considering I had to be to my night classes by 7:30.

The key difference being, nobody makes a fuss when the boss tells someone "hey, knock it off with the smoke breaks!"

 

[HannahT]

To be clear, I know nothing about manufacturing jobs but yes, I am aware of people who have had a couple of short smoke breaks throughout the day (they either stayed a bit late or came a bit early) at their time.

It depends on where you are (department) within the manufacturing - and what is going on that day.

My H runs the shipping department. If there is a time during the day in which nothing big is coming off the line, and there are no Semi's to be loaded, etc? He doesn't mind people going outside to get a quick smoke.

What does tick him off is when the opposite is true. The goods are coming off the line so fast that they are blocking the aisles, and the truckers are there waiting to be loaded...and then they go and smoke. They generally don't push that - because it is an unauthorized break per the union contract. Yet, you always have a few from time to time that push it just because.

Yes, of course I'm leaving out other dynamics...but you should be able to get the point here.

He can do that in his department, but in other departments? They can't. The machines are constantly running, and you can't leave them unmanned. They do shutdown for the breaks and lunches. They do make allowances for things if need be. Yet, overall the lines need to continue to run...to fulfill the orders waiting to be loaded. The allowances don't happen every day - I'm saying if all of a sudden someone needs to run to the bathroom or something. It takes time to shut down the machines, and turn them back on. You also have the department before you at times waiting for you to finish, and it slows down the whole company.

One thing within the manufacturing atmosphere - especially if unionized - if you do something for one you must do something for all. So, if you have to shut the machines down an additional time each day for prayer? You would have to do so for others as well. The customer's wouldn't get their orders on time - or you are asking the company to take less orders just to accommodate workers. In this financial climate? You don't want to give the competitors the upper hand, and possibility lose good jobs...which means less hours and salary for the workers. The worse case? You would have to close the entire plant.

This is where 'reasonable accommodations' come in. Sometimes you can change a breaktime to fulfill their need, and other times you can't. You don't add additional break times for to pray, because they have to clock out - so they don't get their full 40 hours they need. If your plant runs 24/7? The scheduling is almost impossible.

There are so many dynamics at play here. You have vendors, customers, shipping, etc. You don't ask them to change the way their company does things to help accommodate prayer times. That's unreasonable.

There are so many working parts to this, and each plant is different.

 

[Murby]

It is preventing the free exercise of their religion which requires them to pray several times a day.

It most certainly does not. They can certainly quit their job and pray as much as they like.

What if my religion required me to pray for 15 minutes three times an hour? So now you have an employee who's only able to work for 15 per hour because they're praying for the other 45 minutes?

Religious freedom does not mean you are free to impose your religion on others. It also does not mean that others must suffer the inconveniences associated with your religion.

The five daily prayers Muslims say are a central tenet of their religion and a requirement, not a suggestion. To deny them that liberty would be to deny the exercise of one of the biggest parts of their entire religion.

They are not being denied that liberty, they've put themselves in circumstances that make that liberty unpractical for them.

Would you really want the pilot of your aircraft to go take breaks to pray??

What about your surgeon? If you're being operated on, would you want your surgeon to take breaks to go pray?

Religious freedom is a two way road. You are free to practice your religion, we are free to be free of the consequences of your religion.

 

[Soma Seer]

It's also grossly unfair to the other employees in some situations....

In an hourly factory environment, it could also cause some contention in a couple of scenarios. The obvious one, if they're not clocking out to do it...the other, if it's a situation where one person can't do their job until the other person has done theirs...and they have to wait (or stay late) because the other person was taking additional breaks throughout the day.

According to the article in which I'd read about this issue weeks ago, workers at the plant were disgruntled because they had to shoulder extra work of those employees taking prayer breaks. (My apologies if someone already has mentioned this tidbit; I've not read through all the posts just yet.)

 

[bhsmte]

The key here folks, is what is deemed to be a "reasonable" accommodation of religious practices.

A company can change policies whenever they choose, as long as they can show, it has a key impact on the viability of their business. Any religious accommodation and or even accommodation for employees who have disabilities, is not required to go beyond what is "reasonable" for the company to put in place and or maintain.

If it became clear, it was not longer "reasonable" to allow all of these prayer breaks, because it was interrupting productivity within the business, the company has the right to change the policy.

 

[HannahT]

I did a quick google search. I found a local story about this circumstance.

You will notice in the video the upset employees are saying they are not allowed to pray at all. Yet, the employer has prayer rooms for them - and asked them to pray during breaks within those prayer rooms.

It sounds like they employees are saying - its my way or you are telling me NOT to pray. That's just not the circumstance, and them claiming it is - doesn't change the reality.

The company even offered to try to find different shifts and locations within the plant to help accommodate the times.

Sounds like the employees are being unreasonable. Just because it seems in Somalia they may have accommodated this - doesn't mean every country will do the same. They wanted to leave the production line twice a day to pray, and no doubt took their breaks as well.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

A manufacturing plant in Wisconsin has changed its prayer policy to prevent dozens of Muslim employees from worshipping on the job — and threatened to fire them if they don’t like it, workers said.

Ariens Company, a Brillion-based maker of snow blowers and lawn mowers, used to allow the 53 Muslims who work at its headquarters plant to take two breaks a day — for five minutes at a time — to fit in their ritual prayers, according toWBAY.

But that abruptly changed Thursday, when the company sent out a statement saying it “does not allow for unscheduled breaks in production” — even for prayer.

“If someone tells you, ‘you pray on your break,’ and the break time is not the prayer time, it will be impossible to pray,” employee Masjid Imam Hasan Abdi told WBAY."............

It is preventing the free exercise of their religion which requires them to pray several times a day. The five daily prayers Muslims say are a central tenet of their religion and a requirement, not a suggestion.
To deny them that liberty would be to deny the exercise of one of the biggest parts of their entire religion.

Then the employers can either dock their pay for that prayer time or let EVERY employee take a few xtra breaks, [or they could just convert to Islam.]
Or just say:

.

 

[SepiaAndDust]

I'm guessing smoke breaks are no longer allowed either?

Floor workers everywhere I've ever worked get written up for taking any sort of extra break. Three or four of those, and you're fired.

 

[myownmynativeland]

A manufacturing plant in Wisconsin has changed its prayer policy to prevent dozens of Muslim employees from worshipping on the job — and threatened to fire them if they don’t like it, workers said.

Ariens Company, a Brillion-based maker of snow blowers and lawn mowers, used to allow the 53 Muslims who work at its headquarters plant to take two breaks a day — for five minutes at a time — to fit in their ritual prayers, according toWBAY.

But that abruptly changed Thursday, when the company sent out a statement saying it “does not allow for unscheduled breaks in production” — even for prayer.

http://m.nydailynews.com/news/natio...-takes-muslim-prayer-breaks-article-1.2499671

“If someone tells you, ‘you pray on your break,’ and the break time is not the prayer time, it will be impossible to pray,” employee Masjid Imam Hasan Abdi told WBAY."............

Soooooo, go find another job, preferably in the M.E. Problem solved.

 

[BrianJK]

Yes, let's make our jobs inaccessible to people of certain religions. That shows how free our society is!