Will the Holy Spirit be removed before the Man of Sin is revealed?

[random person]

And will the man of sin be revealed before the Rapture?

2 Thessalonians 2:1-6

Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers, not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God. Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time.


(I am a partial Preterist btw).

 

[Purge187]

Different strokes for different folks.

Some have said that the Holy Ghost's ministers (the church) are removed prior to the Antichrist being revealed, indicating a pre-Trib rapture. Someone on a site I visited earlier today suggested that the Holy Ghost will move out of the way so that the Antichrist can do his thing.

He can't completely vanish from the world altogether. Otherwise, the increased outpouring of God's Spirit that was predicted in the Book of Joel would be a lie.

 

[Bible2]

random person said in post 1:

Will the Holy Spirit be removed before the Man of Sin is revealed?

No.

The restrainer of the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:6-8) could be a powerful, good angel, like the one who will restrain Satan at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 20:1-3). The restrainer can't be the Holy Spirit, because in the future the restrainer will be removed (2 Thessalonians 2:7b), whereas the Holy Spirit can never be removed because he is always omnipresent (Psalms 139:7-10). Similarly, the restrainer can't be the church, or the Holy Spirit in the church, because the church won't be removed (John 17:15,20, Proverbs 10:30), and there are now no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-5), and now no one can be a believer without the Spirit (Romans 8:9); and the Antichrist will be allowed to physically overcome believers in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13), just as, for example, the Roman emperors and Satan were allowed to physically overcome believers in the first century AD (e.g. Revelation 2:10).

random person said in post 1:

And will the man of sin be revealed before the Rapture?

Yes.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 refers to when an individual man will be revealed (i.e. without any remaining doubt) as being the Antichrist, by his sitting (at least one time) in a future, 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaiming himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36,31, Matthew 24:15). This is one of the things that has to happen before the future day of Jesus' 2nd coming and the gathering together (rapture) of the church (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8), immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

random person said in post 1:

(I am a partial Preterist btw).

Note that no man ever sat in the Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaimed himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36,31, cf. Matthew 24:15), just as no man ever fulfilled other detailed references to the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) in Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 16:2-16, Revelation 19:19-21, and 2 Thessalonians 2:8-9. Any mistaken teaching which claims that the Antichrist has already come and gone could be employed in the future by the real Antichrist to fool some Christians into thinking that he isn't the Antichrist.

The Antichrist will fulfill 2 Thessalonians 2:4 after he by force takes control of a future, 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem, stops the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices which the ultra-Orthodox Jews will have restarted in front of it, and has the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the temple (Daniel 11:31,36, Matthew 24:15).

The Antichrist could then make quite a show of his sitting himself in the temple and declaring himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36,31). In a television and internet broadcast which will be seen live by the world, he could first be shown entering the temple's most holy place in magnificent golden robes. He could then step up to the Ark of the Covenant (which could have been discovered, and placed in the temple by the Jews), and lift the Mercy Seat off of the Ark, showing the Ark to be empty. He could then look into the camera and say: "Where is YHWH? He is not here! He is a distant fraud! His power on this earth is as hollow as this empty Ark!" (The Antichrist will utterly revile YHWH: Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36.)

Then the Antichrist could raise the Mercy Seat high above his head only to suddenly smash it down violently to the ground, breaking it into pieces. The piped-in sound of crowds roaring with approval could then be heard in the background. Then the Antichrist could place his hands on the Ark and stare into the camera: "WE can do better than this". He could then knock over the Ark and stamp it with his foot, bashing in its side. Two of the Antichrist's followers in robes could then quickly come in and clear away the rubble of the Mercy Seat and the Ark, while 4 more men in robes carry into the temple's most holy place a magnificent golden throne and place it right where the Ark had been before. All the men could then bow down and motion with their arms for the Antichrist to sit on the throne. He could then grandly take his seat upon it.

Glorious symphonic music could then swell as the sound of crowds roaring with approval increases. Then the Antichrist's False Prophet (Revelation 19:20) (who could be an apostate pope) could enter the temple's most holy place and approach the Antichrist carrying a majestic golden crown encrusted with large diamonds and all kinds of precious stones. The Antichrist could take the crown from the pope's hands, and as the Antichrist is placing the crown on his own head, a camera could zoom in on his face as he says: "I AM THAT I AM. I AM YOUR GOD. Worship me, all ye nations of the earth!"

(cf. Revelation 13:8, Daniel 11:36; 2 Thessalonians 2:4)

 

[vinsight4u]

/

 

[shturt678s]

The Holy Spirit has been replaced from way back along with the Antichrist being revealed. Replacement occurs at IIThess.2:4 in the Sanctuary, ie, not "Temple".

There won't even be a Rapture, however there will be a "1" Return in the sense of Jn.5:28, 29, ie, all in their graves will rise - good and the bad.

Old Jack

 

[Revlog]

Hi random person. You quoted the first 6 verses.

1Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, 2that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God. 5Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things? 6And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed.​

For proper context, we should really see the rest of it:

7For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way. 8Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; 9that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, 10and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. 11For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, 12in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.​

In your partial preterist view, how do you:

• Explain the "one who restrains being taken out of the way"?
• Explain the power and signs and false wonders associated with the appearance of the lawless one?

 

[random person]

Hi random person. You quoted the first 6 verses.

1Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, 2that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God. 5Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things? 6And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed.​

For proper context, we should really see the rest of it:

7For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way. 8Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; 9that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, 10and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. 11For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, 12in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.​

In your partial preterist view, how do you:

• Explain the "one who restrains being taken out of the way"?
• Explain the power and signs and false wonders associated with the appearance of the lawless one?

The Restrainer - Emperor Claudius who did not persecute the Christians and kicked all the Jews out of Rome that were persecuting Christians.

Man of Sin, The Beast (the fifth or sixth king depending if one counts Julius Caesar or not) - Nero Caesar who poisoned Claudius and usurped the throne and set in motion one of the worst Christian persecutions Christianity ever witnessed and for 42 months ta boot between 64AD to 68 AD. He committed suicide by stabbing a blade into his own throat.

 

[shturt678s]

The Restrainer - Emperor Claudius who did not persecute the Christians and kicked all the Jews out of Rome that were persecuting Christians.

Man of Sin, The Beast (the fifth or sixth king depending if one counts Julius Caesar or not) - Nero Caesar who poisoned Claudius and usurped the throne and set in motion one of the worst Christian persecutions Christianity ever witnessed and for 42 months ta boot between 64AD to 68 AD. He committed suicide by stabbing a blade into his own throat.

IIThess.2:6, "restrainer" is simply our precious Lord in heaven. The "antichrist" = a sequence of men. :o

Old Jack

 

[ebedmelech]

IIThess.2:6, "restrainer" is simply our precious Lord in heaven. The "antichrist" = a sequence of men. :o

Old Jack

No Jack. The "restrainer"..restrains, until he is taken out of the way. You cannot take the Lord "out of the way".

I suggest you rethink that one.

 

[zeke37]

the Holy Spirit is NEVER removed.
that's a pre trib fantasy, as much as Nero fulfilling the beast is.

 

[Revlog]

The Restrainer - Emperor Claudius who did not persecute the Christians and kicked all the Jews out of Rome that were persecuting Christians.

Thanks for replying to my questions.

Acts 18:1-3 - 1After these things he left Athens and went to Corinth. 2And he found a Jew named Aquila, a native of Pontus, having recently come from Italy with his wife Priscilla, because Claudius had commanded all the Jews to leave Rome. He came to them, 3and because he was of the same trade, he stayed with them and they were working, for by trade they were tent-makers.​

I note that verse 2 says Claudius expelled "all the Jews". And are you saying that Aquila was one of the Jews persecuting Christians?

Anyway, it's likely that Claudius viewed Christianity as a Jewish sect, and his intent was simply to end disturbances related to the spread of Christianity. I think that this pagan emperor would have expelled Jews without concerning himself with their opinions of Jesus.

Man of Sin, The Beast (the fifth or sixth king depending if one counts Julius Caesar or not) - Nero Caesar who poisoned Claudius and usurped the throne and set in motion one of the worst Christian persecutions Christianity ever witnessed and for 42 months ta boot between 64AD to 68 AD. He committed suicide by stabbing a blade into his own throat.

I'm not seeing how this involves the power and signs and false wonders. 2 Thes 2 sounds to me more like the great signs with which the false prophet deceives the world in Rev 13, and the false Christs and false prophets who will arise and show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect, which Jesus said would immediately precede his coming.

Anyway, to each his own.

BTW, I see that you have a 42 month period for Nero which is interesting. Of course the date of Nero's death in June 68 is solid. However, I've been having trouble locating the writings of a reliable ancient historian who cites November 64 as the start of Nero's persecution of Christians. Do you have references? I've see a number of authors making the same claim (without sources), and they seem to be largely advocates of a preterist view.

 

[shturt678s]

No Jack. The "restrainer"..restrains, until he is taken out of the way. You cannot take the Lord "out of the way".

I suggest you rethink that one.

Maybe your correct with IIThess.2:6, 7, "And the thing now holding up you know, so that he is revealed in his season,...v.7...only until the one holding (it) up now shall get out of the way."

"the mystery of this lawlessness is already operating," ie, already actively at work. It is compelled to work under cover; this lawlessness is still held down, its cover has not yet been stripped away by our Lord my tlrue friend. The latter will not happen until He who holds this evil force down gets out of the way.

The Antichrist had not yet appeared then, but the lawlessness he would represent what was already active. In due season it would develop a personal head, the one described in vs. 3, 4, eg, wayyy before Mr. Luther.

Thank you again,

Old Jack

 

[random person]

Thanks for replying to my questions.

Acts 18:1-3 - 1After these things he left Athens and went to Corinth. 2And he found a Jew named Aquila, a native of Pontus, having recently come from Italy with his wife Priscilla, because Claudius had commanded all the Jews to leave Rome. He came to them, 3and because he was of the same trade, he stayed with them and they were working, for by trade they were tent-makers.​

I note that verse 2 says Claudius expelled "all the Jews". And are you saying that Aquila was one of the Jews persecuting Christians?

Anyway, it's likely that Claudius viewed Christianity as a Jewish sect, and his intent was simply to end disturbances related to the spread of Christianity. I think that this pagan emperor would have expelled Jews without concerning himself with their opinions of Jesus.


I'm not seeing how this involves the power and signs and false wonders. 2 Thes 2 sounds to me more like the great signs with which the false prophet deceives the world in Rev 13, and the false Christs and false prophets who will arise and show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect, which Jesus said would immediately precede his coming.

Anyway, to each his own.

BTW, I see that you have a 42 month period for Nero which is interesting. Of course the date of Nero's death in June 68 is solid. However, I've been having trouble locating the writings of a reliable ancient historian who cites November 64 as the start of Nero's persecution of Christians. Do you have references? I've see a number of authors making the same claim (without sources), and they seem to be largely advocates of a preterist view.

Well, the conflagration of Rome occurred in mid-July in 64AD, the month of November as the beginning of the Neronian persecutions were given by church historian Johann Lorenz von Mosheim. Ernest Renan gives the month of August a month after the conflagration.

 

[Revlog]

Well, the conflagration of Rome occurred in mid-July in 64AD, the month of November as the beginning of the Neronian persecutions were given by church historian Johann Lorenz von Mosheim. Ernest Renan gives the month of August a month after the conflagration.

Thanks random person for providing the requested information.

Seeing that Johann Lorenz von Mosheim wrote in the mid 1700s, I am left wondering where he got his information.

You understand, that without a reliable account from or based on first century historians, the claim that Nero fulfilled the 42 months prophecy of Rev 13 is exceedingly thin. That, on top of other debates over the timing of John's revelation and other matters.

I'm sure you're aware that people have at times "tweaked history" to make it fit with their own agenda -- and sadly, Christians are not immune to this temptation. I'm not saying that your or Johann Lorenz von Mosheim have done this, but it's certainly conceivable that such a tweak was involved in the formation of this "Nero 42 month prophecy".

 

[random person]

Thanks random person for providing the requested information.

Seeing that Johann Lorenz von Mosheim wrote in the mid 1700s, I am left wondering where he got his information.

You understand, that without a reliable account from or based on first century historians, the claim that Nero fulfilled the 42 months prophecy of Rev 13 is exceedingly thin. That, on top of other debates over the timing of John's revelation and other matters.

I'm sure you're aware that people have at times "tweaked history" to make it fit with their own agenda -- and sadly, Christians are not immune to this temptation. I'm not saying that your or Johann Lorenz von Mosheim have done this, but it's certainly conceivable that such a tweak was involved in the formation of this "Nero 42 month prophecy".

Well we don't have a sure date of when the Neronian persecutions began til when they ended.

But from August 64 AD (rounded up from mid-July) to May 68AD (rounded down from June 8th) is 3 years, 10 months.

Was the persecutions immediate or was Rome being rebuilt of greater import?

But what we do have is three years and an unnamed amount of months that the world witnessed the greatest Christian persecution in its young history. Nero put a death sentence on each and every Christian! Thank the Lord he didn't succeed.

 

[ebedmelech]

Maybe your correct with IIThess.2:6, 7, "And the thing now holding up you know, so that he is revealed in his season,...v.7...only until the one holding (it) up now shall get out of the way."

"the mystery of this lawlessness is already operating," ie, already actively at work. It is compelled to work under cover; this lawlessness is still held down, its cover has not yet been stripped away by our Lord my tlrue friend. The latter will not happen until He who holds this evil force down gets out of the way.

The Antichrist had not yet appeared then, but the lawlessness he would represent what was already active. In due season it would develop a personal head, the one described in vs. 3, 4, eg, wayyy before Mr. Luther.

Thank you again,

Old Jack

Working as of the time Paul spoke this. He is speaking to the 1st century church of the impending persecution. This is why Paul spoke of the apostasy which would weed out the false believers.

Verses 3, and 4 are personal to those of that time but serves as an example to the church throughout time of enduring until the end...just as they did.

We have to keep in mind Matthew 24:4-9. The "birth pangs" will continue throughout time until the end. It flows perfectly as Paul speaks to us in Romans 8:18-25.

As for Luther, when you see the persecution of the reformers by the papacy, can you blame him? However he was wrong.

 

[ancientsoul]

2 Thessalonians 2:7 ... instruction concerning the day of the Lord ... For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

1st he ... Michael
2nd he ... Satan

 

[shturt678s]

Working as of the time Paul spoke this. He is speaking to the 1st century church of the impending persecution. This is why Paul spoke of the apostasy which would weed out the false believers.

Verses 3, and 4 are personal to those of that time but serves as an example to the church throughout time of enduring until the end...just as they did.

We have to keep in mind Matthew 24:4-9. The "birth pangs" will continue throughout time until the end. It flows perfectly as Paul speaks to us in Romans 8:18-25.

As for Luther, when you see the persecution of the reformers by the papacy, can you blame him? However he was wrong.

Have to treat you gently as don't have too many sparring partner friends off this great forum or on. Mr. Luther missed a whole bunch, however those after, eg, Mr. M. Chemnitz (1560 or so) through to about 1929 dialed most in accurately.

IIThess.2:3, "Do not let anyone deceive you in any way!" re-echoes Jesus's warning given in Matt.24:4, and not the other way around correct? Now if Matt.24:4, etc. will continue to the end then why wouldn't a re-echo of this warning continue to the end?

Old Jack

 

[ebedmelech]

2 Thessalonians 2:7 ... instruction concerning the day of the Lord ... For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

1st he ... Michael
2nd he ... Satan

Well...I hold that your view took place as Jesus spoke John 12:31, 32 saying:
31 Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out.
32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”

That holds true to Revelation 12:7-11:
7 And there was war in heaven, Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon. The dragon and his angels waged war,
8 and they were not strong enough, and there was no longer a place found for them in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.
10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, “Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even when faced with death.
12 For this reason, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has only a short time.”

Look at those understanding Jesus declared ALL AUTHORITY in Matthew 28:18!!!

 

[ancientsoul]

Well...I hold that your view took place as Jesus spoke John 12:31, 32 saying:
31 Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out.
32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”

That holds true to Revelation 12:7-11:
7 And there was war in heaven, Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon. The dragon and his angels waged war,
8 and they were not strong enough, and there was no longer a place found for them in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.
10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, “Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even when faced with death.
12 For this reason, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has only a short time.”

Look at those understanding Jesus declared ALL AUTHORITY in Matthew 28:18!!!

i would have been shocked had you agreed with me ...

companion verse to 2 Thessalonians 2:7 ...

1 John 2:18 ... the danger of the antichrists ... Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many anti-christs; whereby we know that it is the last time.

the anti-christ
and many anti-christs

Satan is not here ... his spirit is ... but he is not ... he has never been born through the womb on this earth ...

Satan IS the anti-christ ...

Michael holds him in chains ...

when Michael lets him go ... then Satan comes here ... with his minions ...

and yes, all power was given to Jesus ... but Jesus won't be here until AFTER Satan ... and Satan has to be released to come here ...and that's how i see it ... time will tell ...