Why wouldn't someone be saved?

[Bluelion]

Thanks for your info, BL! A person can get interpretations on here from different people, and people like myself who have only been Christians for a relatively short time, can get a little confused at times.

Glad i could help. The best thing I can tell you to do is pray and read God's word every night. I like the NLT bible its an easy read. The NASB is the most literal translations and is pretty easy to read as well. Study God 's word write it on your heart. Dig deep roots.

blu

 

[Nord Christian]

If you ignore the scriptures, because you like what someone said about one other passages, you do yourself a disservice. I am trying to get you - someone asking for understanding - to seek it from the same place I found a great deal of what I learned.

I have shown scripture, and suggested good books. The second best book in the English language was written by the person I first suggested you read from. It was a book that has been called the first novel.

You may call the book I am talking about, a road map of the Christian Journey to Heaven. Here is a man that spent 12 years in jail for preaching without a license, and God used his persecution to bless all of us. Don't let such a great resource lie untapped by you.

Pilgrim's Progress - aChristianSpirit

T H E
Pilgrim's Progress
From
T H I S W O R L D
T O
That which is to Come;
Delivered under the similitude of a
D R E A M,
Wherein is Discovered
The Manner of his setting out,
His Dangerous J O U R N E Y,
A N D
Safe Arrival at the Desired Country.


By . J O H N . B U N Y A N .
​

L O N D O N, 1678
​

I have almost memorized certain parts of this (25 or 30 years ago) and it gives me strength and direction often. See this first few lines:

CHAPTER 1
​

As I walked through the wilderness of this world, I lighted on a certain place where was a den (the gaol - jail), and I laid me down in that place to sleep: and as I slept, I dreamed a dream... ​

Yes, he wrote this book in JAIL.

I bookmarked the Pilgrim's progress and started reading it last night. Am up to chapter 2, at the moment.

It's a good read so far, and Mr.Bunyan using characters to depict the good and bad. Obstinate is an unbeliever. Pliable gives up on his Christian walk, and turns away when both he and Christian fall into figurative swamp or quicksand. Mr. Worldywiseman, being a deceiver, or even the devil?


Mr. Bunyan had been through a lot. Having a blind child. One stillborn. Going to jail etc.

 

[Nord Christian]

Glad i could help. The best thing I can tell you to do is pray and read God's word every night. I like the NLT bible its an easy read. The NASB is the most literal translations and is pretty easy to read as well. Study God 's word write it on your heart. Dig deep roots.

blu

Yes, thank you!

I do pray for thanksgiving to God every day, for what I have. If an indecent thought hits my mind, I pray to the Lord to forgive me for it coming through. And also pray for the Lord to take it away, as I don't want it
plaguing my mind.

I know I need to read the Bible more often. Often times I will get caught up in something, and forget, though I know that's not a good excuse. No video game, hockey game, TV show or anything on the internet is as important as impressing God's word on the heart and mind.

My Bible is an NSRV, or new standard revised version.

 

[Avid]

... Mr. Worldywiseman, being a deceiver, or even the devil?

Beware of the Worldly Wiseman. There are many out there. They have ideas, opinions, and doctrines that tell you how to feel better. Presently, many are involved in the "Prosperity" version of "Christianity." They are there in the more liberal churches. They are even found in most more conservative and fundamentalist churches these days.

That fellow will tell you not to be worried. You'll be just fine. God understands. He tells that to ANYONE he sees that has fallen under conviction of sin. Contrast their advice with that of these Godly men of centuries past.

Mere outward reformation differs as much from regeneration as white−washing an old rotten house differs from pulling it down and building a new one in its place.
Augustus M. Toplady (1740−1778)

Any salvation that does not come to the core, and give us freedom from sin and death, will leave us to perish.
William Gadsby (1773−1844)

We want to be purified as well as pardoned. Justification without sanctification would not be salvation at all. It would call the leper clean, and leave him to die of his disease.
Charles Haddon Spurgeon (1834−1892)

Never rest in convictions till they end in conversion. This is that wherein most men miscarry; they rest in their convictions, and take them for conversion, as if sin seen were therefore forgiven, as if a sight of the want of grace were the truth of the work of grace.
Matthew Mead (1629−1699)

​

There are many pitfalls, as you will see as you read that book. There is (as you have read,) centuries of good work on your behalf. Great men of God have suffered and labored to help you, as the above quotes show.

 

[Nord Christian]

Oh yes! One of the prosperity ministers I know of is Joel Osteen. Don't
watch him.

And churches who've made compromises, and instead of preaching the
truth about sin, allow gay marriages to take place and so forth.

 

[Avid]

... Mr.Bunyan using characters to depict the good and bad...

The more you know, the more you'll appreciate this: More than one of those terrible people was John Bunyan himself...

Yes, he looked at his own life, saw how he had rebelled against God, had thought he was something, or had slighted good advice. He gained the perspective to know that there are people who are like that, but will not turn away from their corruptions and their egotistical bent.

 

[98cwitr]

If we believe in what Lord Jesus did for us, yet continue to give into sin, I've heard from some that maybe they weren't saved in the first place. Why wouldn't this be?

If we believe in our hearts what Lord Jesus did for us on the cross, then
why do we need to worry about "not being saved". Why would God deny someone the Holy spirit when indeed they are lost people, in need of help?

Am I still a sinner, of course yes. Today at the mall I did overlook at some women there. I prayed to the Lord that I was sorry, but it's something that's not easy to control for me. I had grown up knowing hardly anything about Christianity. I'd grown up with the wrong thinking that permeates most of lost society. That fornication and masturbation is fine. My Dad would tell me in my teens that inappropriate content will "warp your mind" but I didn't believe him.

Up until my 40's, I had thought which a lot of people sadly still believe. Why would God send them to hell when they're nice people? I of course know that we're all sinners, and fall short of God's glory, and we're all deserving to go where Satan want's us to go...with him down to hell.

Bad habits aren't easily broken, and our sin nature still remains even when we believe we are saved/ or saved. I don't give into inappropriate content as much as I used to, but unfortunately still do. I can be gluttonous at times. I am imperfect, but then again so is everyone else. Not saying that there are people less righteous than I am. I'm not going to church. However, I'm trying to read the Bible more and I do watch Dr. Stanley once a week.

We would believe such things because of Matthew 25, John 3, John 6, John 15, Romans 9, Hebrews 10, 1 John 3, and 1 John 5, and James 2-3....for starters

 

[JLR1300]

Originally Posted by Nord Christian

... We all know we can't be perfect...
​

Originally Posted by CrossDrivenWriter

... "14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy."- Hebrews 10: 14
​

"It seems the doctrine is not in agreement with itself. We hear this all the time, and the scriptures are taken to mean what they do not say in order to support it."

The first half of the verse means that by Christ's blood we are justified or legally perfect. The second half of the verse teaches that we are BEING MADE holy. It is a process that is not complete. So the verse means that because of Christ's sacrifice which satisfies the wrath of God we are legally perfect and justified... but in actual practice our behavior is in a process of being made holy or perfect but we aren't there yet. In practice we are imperfect whereas from a legal or forensic standpoint we are perfect. Surely this is not a hard concept to grasp.

 

[JLR1300]

Originally Posted by Nord Christian

My understanding is that God understands we cannot be perfect...
"I know you think this, but have yet to provide scripture that supports your point. Try believing the scriptures of the Word of God."


Here are a couple of scriptures, and I believe them...
Old Testament
"Surely there is not a righteous man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not." Ecclesiastes 7:20 (ASV)

New Testament
"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us." 1st John 1:8

I think these verses teach that no one is perfect. Besides, my experience teaches me that too because I still have not met a perfect person and I am 56 years old.

​

 

[CrossDrivenWriter]

It seems the doctrine is not in agreement with itself. We hear this all the time, and the scriptures are taken to mean what they do not say in order to support it.

You confuse the doctrine of sanctification with justification. Justification is a legal declaration from God that your sins won't be held against you. Sanctification is the process of us moving closer to God. When you confuse the two, you get legalism.

The fact is we want to get away from sin not because we think it will somehow earn God's favor. He loves us as much as he ever will already. We want to get away from sin because we revere Jesus Christ and through him claim adopted sonship. Why on earth would we want to insult the greatest being ever, who went out of his way to protect us and bring us into his confidence?

We still do it anyways, but that just turns into another opportunity for God to prove he is better than us. If someone we tried to help struggled against us repeatedly, we'd probably let them go. But not God. He proves his greatness by holding onto his adopted sons, even when they rebel.

Not to say that this is an excuse to sin. Again, we serve a great God. We don't have any good reason to continue sinning against him, but we still do because we have sin in us and will until the resurrection. But God will still try to protect us by chastising us.

That's not to mention the dreadful consequences of sin on its own. It warps the mind, destroys marriages, and annihilates lives. God will forgive you for your affair, but that won't restore the loss of trust in your marriage. You can't relive your twenties after wasting them. You can't attend your child's first baseball game if you miss it because of drunkeness.

God forgives his children. But sin still destroys, and it will until it is destroyed forever. We have good reason to avoid it, and avoiding it requires drawing closer to God-sanctification.

 

[Avid]

Originally Posted by CrossDrivenWriter

...The fact is we want to get away from sin not because we think it will somehow earn God's favor...​

I am not confused at all, and I am not legalistic. I am dealing with the errant idea that God excuses people remaining under the dominion of sin when they claim he has freed them from it. Nowhere am I suggesting that people who refrain from sin are able to earn their salvation. This accusation is an old and well-worn tactic to turn people, who are under conviction of their sin, away from seeking the LORD to free them.


Originally Posted by Jeffwhosoever

...You think Paul was saved at the point he wrote this?

​

Whether "Saved" or not, the context of Romans 7 must be considered to include Romans 6 and Romans 8. Read all three together, and the worldly view that is so prevalent is not plausible.

I gave good quotes from centuries past by great men of God who knew better. This idea of the sinning saint and carnal christian are relatively new.

One of the early proponents of the "Carnal Christian Theory" was Rev. C.I. Scofield, D.D., of the popular Scofield Reference Bible, © 1909, etc. In the notes for Romans Chapter 7, we have:

"Just when the apostle passed through the experience of Rom. 7. 7-25 we are not told. Perhaps during the days of physical blindness at Damascus (Acts 9. 9); perhaps in Arabia (Gal. 1. 17)."

​

As Paul was considering the things he would suffer for Christ's name in those three days being blind in Damascus, he definitely would have experienced this, as anyone who faces the truth about their fallen human nature will. If this took longer than that, he would have felt this way while the depth of God's holy truth was revealed to him as he was three years separated for the purpose in Arabia. Nevertheless, the apostle asks the question, "Who shall deliver me from this body of death? I thank God through Jesus Christ..."

Any who wish to be delivered from what was described in those verses should seek the LORD Jesus Christ as did the Apostle Paul.

Romans 6
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Romans 8
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

​

A new religion has been built around the idea that (not the author, but) the writer of the bulk of the New Testament did not have victory over sin, nor was pleasing to God?!? Somehow this, taken out of its proper context, is THE DEFINING CHAPTER of Paul's life.

How would he then write in the next chapter that this is NOT the life of one in whom the Holy Spirit of God dwells? If we do not have the Holy Spirit of God dwelling in our heart, we are NONE OF HIS. Jesus will not know us at the great day of judgment.

There are some really smart people who believe that idea, though, and it is widespread in its influence. It doesn't go back much more than a hundred years, but it has grown like wildfire. There is a lot of company on that road, and very prominent company at that.

 

[Avid]

You confuse the doctrine of sanctification with justification...

As stated above, I am not confused. Neither was C.H. Spurgeon.

We want to be purified as well as pardoned. Justification without sanctification would not be salvation at all. It would call the leper clean, and leave him to die of his disease; it would forgive the rebellion and allow the rebel to remain an enemy to his king.
Charles Haddon Spurgeon (1834−1892)

ALL of GRACE
An Earnest Word with Those
Who Are Seeking Salvation
by the Lord Jesus Christ


http://www.achristianspirit.com/AllofGrace.html

​

 

[bushinoki]

Sorry I'm so late with this, military duties and school have impinged on my time.

Nord, the righteous live by faith. Now, faith calls for action, but the action isn't anything we can really do on our own. Praying for forgiveness is great, but you should start praying for strength beforehand. The things that a Christian need to do are read the Bible and pray. And praying entails asking God for strength to deal with tests and temptations. Sanctification is the work of the Holy Spirit, not the believer.

Also, I made the comment about discipleship. Who is the one training you in doctrine? Who plays the Paul to your Timothy? Someone who holds you accountable should be guiding you in growing as a Christian.

 

[Avid]

... Praying for forgiveness is great, but you should start praying for strength beforehand. The things that a Christian need to do are read the Bible and pray. And praying entails asking God for strength to deal with tests and temptations. Sanctification is the work of the Holy Spirit, not the believer...

One bunch thinks this is done by the flesh, and they find it impossible. Thus, they conjecture some spiritualized version that defies all reason, whether worldly or scriptural.

Some just think God does everything, requires nothing of the sinner, and some day, the elect will simply be in Heaven. Most of them seem to default back to enjoying the pleasures of the flesh.

The truth is that we need to crucify the flesh by God's Holy Spirit. If we belong to God, and are converted through faith in His dear Son, His Holy Spirit works in our hearts many things as described in scripture. Sanctification is definitely one of those things.

Romans 8
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Galatians 5
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

Galatians 6
14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

Colossians 3
9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
​

We need to put away the works of the flesh. If we continue to be dominated by our fallen human nature, we will get nowhere in dealing with God. That is a rebellious nature that is not interested in submitting to the authority of God.

The crucifixion of the flesh seems to be a daily thing according to the Apostle Paul.

Galatians 2
20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

I Corinthians 15
31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.


​

 

[bushinoki]

Avid, indeed, all of that is true. That is why I point out the need for believers to be in the Scripture and praying. Those are the actions that we take to crucifying the flesh daily. It's too easy to fall into the trap of thinking God will do it all for us, when he has expectations of us to study and pray.

I think the importance of discipleship can't be understressed either. If there is no one to lead us in study and prayer, and to hold us accountable, growth as a believer is much slower, if it doesn't lead to apostasy.

 

[Avid]

... I point out the need for believers to be in the Scripture and praying...

This is how we seek the LORD. Your advice is good advice for those seeking the LORD to help them. Discipleship, and the presence of someone who is able to help are part of that. God draws the sinner by His Holy Spirit, and God expects a response. The scriptures show the truth to the errant heart, the preaching is used to convict of sin, and to direct the sinner. This all must be accompanied by the sinner actually desiring the salvation of the LORD, and following through as instructed in scripture.

Once God has drawn the sinner, and the scriptures bring the conviction of sin (all this by the Holy Spirit of God,) the sinner is intent on seeking the LORD, or he is not. He will search the scriptures, and pray to God for grace to help in his time of need, or he will not. There are half-measures, of course. Many people enter this to impress someone, and are not committed to changing who they are for what they don't really want.

Problems arise as the people take these half-measures, and build a new religion on doing something they were convinced was right, and then they teach others to go only that far as well. One good preacher stated that there was no good reason to send missionaries all the way to India or China, simply to tell them the same lies we tell people in Church all the time.