Why Would Anyone Convert to Islam?

[E.C.]

I think you are right about the terminology. Do you see common causes that Muslims and Christians can work together on?

I edited a few in while this may have been posted. What is important to remember is that in the Levant Muslims and Christians have been able to coexist for centuries. The rest of the world, sadly, not so much.

 

[Yoder777]

I am honestly sorry if I offend people by asking questions about Muslim mysticism. I am not trying to convert anyone to Islam but instead trying to see common ground between our traditions. How many Christians have listened to Sufi chant or read a Sufi poem and not felt that God was present?

 

[Yoder777]

I edited a few in while this may have been posted. What is important to remember is that in the Levant Muslims and Christians have been able to coexist for centuries. The rest of the world, sadly, not so much.

What can Christians and Muslims do together in a Western context?

 

[jckstraw72]

they deny that Christ has come in the flesh. Saying He has come in the flesh means He came from somewhere - its a recognition of His divinity. They deny His divinity and therefore His Incarnation, and are of the spirit of Antichrist as St. John tells us.

 

[Yoder777]

they deny that Christ has come in the flesh. Saying He has come in the flesh means He came from somewhere - its a recognition of His divinity. They deny His divinity and therefore His Incarnation, and are of the spirit of Antichrist as St. John tells us.

What good things can you think of to say about the Islamic faith? I am not saying you don't have a right to express your opinions, but I am curious as to what good things you see.

This book is a collection of essays concerning the mystical and contemplative dimensions of Eastern Christianity and Islam presented at the October 2001 conference on Hesychasm and Sufism at the University of South Carolina. Contributions from internationally recognized spiritual leaders and scholars include Kallistos Ware; Seyyed Hossien Nasr; John Chryssavgis; Reza Shah-Kazemi; Huston Smith; Williams Chittick and more.
Despite the long and well-known history of conflict between Christians and Muslims, their mystical traditions especially in the Christian East and in Sufism, have shared for centuries many of the same spiritual methods and goals. One thinks, for example, of the profound similarities between the practices of the Jesus Prayer among the Hesychast masters of the Philokalia and the Sufi practices of dhikr or invocation.
http://www.worldwisdom.com/public/p...to_the_Heart_Sufism_and_the_Christian_East.as

 

[jckstraw72]

its monotheistic, that's a plus. it has structure and discipline.

 

[Yoder777]

its monotheistic, that's a plus. it has structure and discipline.

Here's a review of the book by an Orthodox Christian:

Paths to the Heart: Sufism and the Christian East

I am a huge admirer of Metropolitan Kallistos Ware and try and get my hands on whatever I can of his, including talks, articles and books. One book I recently purchased which includes a contribution by him is called "Paths to the heart" subtitled 'Sufism and the Christian East'. The aim of the book is to answer the following questions: "What do the mystical traditions of the Christian East and Sufism have in common?" and "Is there a dialogue that can promote a deep and lasting bond between Christianity and Islam?"

I must admit that my immediate answers to both questions were "not a lot" and "no", but reading the book I was fascinated to not only learn more about the mystical tradition of Islam but also the touching points that exist between these two distantly related faiths.

Kallistos Ware's contribution is an important one as he pens the opening chapter to this interesting book which has further contributions from Orthodox such as John Chryssavgis and Vincent Rossi and Muslims such as Reza Shah-Kazemi and Sayyed Hossein Nasr. In this chapter Ware is very honest in stating from the outset, that although there are touching points at which the two religions may agree, he would be less than honest in stating that for him, there is one distinct and important difference between the two. He writes:

"If it seems that I am placing undue emphasis upon the contrast between the Hesychast use of the Jesus Prayer and the Sufi use of dhikr, then I ask your forgiveness; but I cannot in all conscience speak otherwise. There can be no true dialogue that does not acknowledge the distinctiveness of each side in the interchange." (page 21)

In making this statement the Metropolitan was actually opening up the rest of the book for me because I felt that I could now read further without the sense that I was somehow compromising my own faith and that this wasn't a book with a hidden agenda. True dialogue is when people with opposing views can sit down and talk. If both agree then there is no real dialogue.

As a result I was pleasantly surprised by this unknown part of Islam which comes across as so different from what appears from the outside as a uniformly legalistic religion. In fact one of my favourite quotes is from the Muslim Professor Nasr who is quoted as saying "we cannot do good unless we are good. We cannot bring peace to the sorrowful world around us unless there is peace in our own hearts." (page 22)

I cannot recommend this book enough not only for its insights into sufism but also the fresh insights it gave me into the Jesus Prayer, the place of the heart and Hesychasm. It provides us with a very positive view of that part of Islam which embraces the mystical and demonstrates that when you sit down and talk with those you know little about, you will find that actually, behind the hype and type, you have much more in common than you thought.
The Orthodox Pathway: Paths to the heart

I honestly believe that Orthodox Christianity, at its heart, has more in common with Islam than with evangelical Protestantism.

 

[E.C.]

What can Christians and Muslims do together in a Western context?

Combat the social ills that have come from Nihilism. Abortion, gay "marriage", the absence of morality and respect in society. There's a very long list that one could make, but I'd be happier if people became Orthodox and not Muslim.

I honestly believe that Orthodox Christianity, at its heart, has more in common with Islam than with evangelical Protestantism.

THAT I'm not so sure about. In outward appearance with chants, fasting, prostrations and so forth maybe; however, that is only because Islam took that from Eastern Christianity.

 

[Yoder777]

THAT I'm not so sure about. In outward appearance with chants, fasting, prostrations and so forth maybe; however, that is only because Islam took that from Eastern Christianity.

Not only that, but when it comes to the inner experience of the divine, do you see more similarity that we have with Islam than with evangelical Protestantism? After all, most Protestants have no concept of the mystical.

I keep mentioning this book, but for good reason:

This book is a collection of essays concerning the mystical and contemplative dimensions of Eastern Christianity and Islam presented at the October 2001 conference on Hesychasm and Sufism at the University of South Carolina. Contributions from internationally recognized spiritual leaders and scholars include Kallistos Ware; Seyyed Hossien Nasr; John Chryssavgis; Reza Shah-Kazemi; Huston Smith; Williams Chittick and more.
Despite the long and well-known history of conflict between Christians and Muslims, their mystical traditions especially in the Christian East and in Sufism, have shared for centuries many of the same spiritual methods and goals. One thinks, for example, of the profound similarities between the practices of the Jesus Prayer among the Hesychast masters of the Philokalia and the Sufi practices of dhikr or invocation.
http://www.worldwisdom.com/public/p...to_the_Heart_Sufism_and_the_Christian_East.as

 

[MKJ]

I dont know that it is true that most Protestants have no concept of the mystical.

Anyway, I thought I would mention for anyone that is interested, my university has a scholar in the religious studies department whose area of expertise is Islam, and he is an Orthodox Christian - he has sometimes given talks on Orthodoxy in the college chapel and is very involved in his church. He is supposed to be quite a good Islamic scholar as well.

THis is his only published book that I know of (Inspired Knowledge in Islamic Thought: Al-Ghazali's Theory of Mystical Cognition and Its Avicennian Foundation) but you can find articles by searching academic publications. It is definitely academic writing and topics so not for everyone, but for those with a strong interest in Muslim philosophy it might be informative.

 

[Yoder777]

I dont know that it is true that most Protestants have no concept of the mystical.

What are the most common Protestant mystical practices?

 

[GregConstantine]

So there are similarities between Islam and Orthodoxy. There are also similarities between Orthodoxy and Taoism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Judaism, etc. So what?
What all these other faiths have in common is that they either don’t know Christ in His fullness (Taoism, Buddhism) or they outright reject Christ (Rabbinic Judaism, Islam).
The Scriptures are clear, the fathers are clear that there is only one way to the Father, and that is trough Jesus Christ. It is not merely what Christ did that saves us, who He is that saves us too. Islam denies the true personhood of Jesus Christ, therefore denies its followers salvation for their souls.
This is why the Church fights against heresy, because every heresy in some way, denies Christ.
The Didache says there are only two ways, one that leads to Life, and one that leads to death. The way that leads to life is Jesus Christ.
If you don’t have Christ or reject Him, you don’t have and you reject Life.
We are certainly to love our neighbors and to treat each other with the utmost respect and dignity. However, it is also an act of mercy to speak the truth in love and to correct one another.
I also want to address what seems to be a perception that if one speaks something true about another faith (ergo, Islam denies Christ) then one is being “negative”.
This is not necessarily true. As the saying goes, Truth is a hard pill to swallow. We Orthodox are in the Truth business, and we must speak it in love, but speak we must.
I think some of this generation are sometimes, just a little too sensitive (I am of this generation btw)

 

[jckstraw72]

this is why i love you, Greg.

 

[Yoder777]

This is why the Church fights against heresy, because every heresy in some way, denies Christ.

How did the early fathers "fight" against heresy? They didn't hit people over the head with doctrine. Instead, they met people where they were at, showing them the similarities between their beliefs and the Christian faith, and how their deepest spiritual longings were fulfilled in Christ.

For Muslims to come to Christ today, despite the Crusades, Western colonialism, racial profiling, etc., we have to be peaceable and fair to them. We have to appreciate the good parts of their faith instead of just condemning them. Perhaps we can even learn from them in order to overcome our own prejudice and intolerance.

I know for a fact that Bishop Kallistos Ware has more wisdom on Islam than an anonymous internet poster. In his essay on the similarities between Orthodox and Islamic mysticism, he opened it by saying that the key difference is Islam's much different views on Christ. But then he goes on for the rest of the essay on what Muslims and Christians can learn from our very real similarities.

I assume that you've never met a Muslim who was a deeply spiritual person. Perhaps it would intimidate you if a Muslim was a godlier man than you are. Father Tryphon of Our Merciful Savior Monastery on Vashon Island tells us that all truth is Orthodox, no matter where it's found. Instead of judging people outside the church, he looks at the life they live with the light that they've been given. Perhaps we all can do the same.

 

[GregConstantine]

[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']“I assume that you've never met a Muslim who was a deeply spiritual person. Perhaps it would intimidate you if a Muslim was a godlier man than you are.”[/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']Wow, what a presumptuous, judgmental thing to say! Do you know me? Do you know who I know and don’t know?[/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']All I can say is “wow”.[/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']1st of all, no one on this forum is advocating physical violence against anyone for any reason, so shame on you for saying that![/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']As to your question about the church fighting against heresy, I’m flabbergasted that you don’t know the answer to that question.[/FONT]

 

[Dorothea]

What can Christians and Muslims do together in a Western context?

In the U.S. and with some fundamental Protestant groups who have a narrow view of Islam...nothing, imo.

 

[Dorothea]

So there are similarities between Islam and Orthodoxy. There are also similarities between Orthodoxy and Taoism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Judaism, etc. So what?
What all these other faiths have in common is that they either don’t know Christ in His fullness (Taoism, Buddhism) or they outright reject Christ (Rabbinic Judaism, Islam).
The Scriptures are clear, the fathers are clear that there is only one way to the Father, and that is trough Jesus Christ. It is not merely what Christ did that saves us, who He is that saves us too. Islam denies the true personhood of Jesus Christ, therefore denies its followers salvation for their souls.
This is why the Church fights against heresy, because every heresy in some way, denies Christ.
The Didache says there are only two ways, one that leads to Life, and one that leads to death. The way that leads to life is Jesus Christ.
If you don’t have Christ or reject Him, you don’t have and you reject Life.
We are certainly to love our neighbors and to treat each other with the utmost respect and dignity. However, it is also an act of mercy to speak the truth in love and to correct one another.
I also want to address what seems to be a perception that if one speaks something true about another faith (ergo, Islam denies Christ) then one is being “negative”.
This is not necessarily true. As the saying goes, Truth is a hard pill to swallow. We Orthodox are in the Truth business, and we must speak it in love, but speak we must.
I think some of this generation are sometimes, just a little too sensitive (I am of this generation btw)

I think we should love all, of course, but also pray for fellow human beings that are in other worldly religions that God may enlighten them and have mercy on them.

 

[Yoder777]

[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']“I assume that you've never met a Muslim who was a deeply spiritual person. Perhaps it would intimidate you if a Muslim was a godlier man than you are.”[/font]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']Wow, what a presumptuous, judgmental thing to say! Do you know me? Do you know who I know and don’t know?[/font]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']All I can say is “wow”.[/font]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']1st of all, no one on this forum is advocating physical violence against anyone for any reason, so shame on you for saying that![/font]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']As to your question about the church fighting against heresy, I’m flabbergasted that you don’t know the answer to that question.[/font]

By intimidated, I do not mean physically intimidated. I think it might hurt or threaten your ego a little bit to meet a Muslim who is more spiritual and godly than you are. I am saying this in all honesty and fairness and I'm sorry to have offended you.

When Jesus talked with the Samaritan woman, did he hit her over the head with doctrine? No, he saw the similarities between their two faiths and then ministered to her for where she was at. As Father Tryphon said, all truth is Orthodox, no matter where it's found. Righteous judgment and discernment would look at the life a person lives with the light they've been given.

I think you might be looking at these issues from a very surface level. Evangelical Protestants often judge a person by whether or not they've accepted Jesus, regardless of the life that person lives or their inner experience of God. I don't think the early fathers, or God himself, judge in that way.

Again, I know for a fact that Bishop Kallistos Ware has more wisdom on Islam than an anonymous internet poster. In his essay on the similarities between Orthodox and Islamic mysticism, he opened it by saying that the key difference is Islam's much different views on Christ. But then he goes on for the rest of the essay on what Muslims and Christians can learn from our very real similarities.

 

[Yoder777]

Eastern Orthodoxy in the United States can get very polemical sometimes. There are the converts who define their faith as Orthodox Christians in opposition to or even in resentment of their former faiths and cradle Orthodox who are still old world in their thinking and feel threatened by the religious pluralism of American society. Then again, there are many very traditional Orthodox Christians, even priests and monks, who are very tolerant of other faiths and see ALL spiritual truth as Orthodox, no matter where it comes from.

That's what I love about Father Tryphon at Our Merciful Savior Monastery on Vashon Island. He meets with Jewish rabbis, Muslim imams, Protestant ministers, etc. and doesn't hit them over the head with Orthodoxy. Instead, he looks at the life they live with the light they've been given. One can do this without compromising one's own beliefs, if one is comfortable enough in those beliefs. This might sound like a relativist way of thinking, only if your are unfamiliar with church history and how the fathers actually related to people outside our faith.

I say these things in all fairness and honesty and I am sorry to offend anyone. Jesus said "Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment." Shouldn't we do the same for people of other faiths? Shouldn't we look at the lives they live and their inner experience of God?

If you are only looking at these issues from a surface level, I understand why you would be offended and I am sincerely sorry to have offended anyone. One need not compromise one's faith in order to see the light within others outside of your faith, no matter how dim it might appear to you.

 

[MKJ]

What are the most common Protestant mystical practices?

It would depend on what sort of Protestants you mean, and I guess what you would think of as mystical practices.

If you are looking at mainstream traditional Protestants than mystical union with the divine through some sort of contemplative prayer would be the most common type I think, and very similar to what is found in non-Protestant groups.

A lot of the more radical reformation types though also had definite ideas about mystical experiences - I remember reading about Calvinists who thought that to know oneself as a member of the elect required a sort of mystical experience, and that was an important basis for membership in the church.

If you look at the whole phenomena of being born again, that has elements of mysticism in it, as do many of the charismatic practices like speaking in tongues and such (though they might not like them to be labeled that way.) Also laying on of hands for healing which is very popular in some Protestant circles.