Why Were Angels Allowed to Intervene in Prediluvian Human affairs

[Radrook]

Why not truncate that intervention at the root by limiting angelic ability to materialize and to have viable offspring from women?

 

[sdowney717]

You might as well ask why does God let sin occur, and for how long does he let sin occur.
God lets sin occur till it reaches its full measure of being shown to all as utterly evil and sinful and wicked.

Genesis 15:15-16New International Version - UK (NIVUK)
15 You, however, will go to your ancestors in peace and be buried at a good old age. 16 In the fourth generation your descendants will come back here, for the sin of the Amorites has not yet reached its full measure.’

When sin has reached its full measure, then God acts to demonstrate His justice.
So then for God's clear judgement against sin so then God is shown to be faultless in His justice to all creatures, including angels.
God waits for sin to fully be revealed as sin in its full fruit, rather than nip it in the bud.

Psalm 51:3-4Amplified Bible, Classic Edition (AMPC)
3 For I am conscious of my transgressions and I acknowledge them; my sin is ever before me.

4 Against You, You only, have I sinned and done that which is evil in Your sight, so that You are justified in Your sentence and faultless in Your judgment.

Proverbs 12:21
No [actual] evil, misfortune, or calamity shall come upon therighteous, but the wicked shall be filled with evil, misfortune, and calamity.

 

[Postvieww]

Why not truncate that intervention at the root by limiting angelic ability to materialize and to have viable offspring from women?

Could one not use the same logic and ask why God allows any evil to continue in this world? When satan deceived Adam and Eve they lost dominion over this earth they were given and it was transferred to satan and his crowd.


All of this will come to an end, in God’s timeframe, according to His plan.

 

[Radrook]

Could one not use the same logic and ask why God allows any evil to continue in this world? When satan deceived Adam and Eve they lost dominion over this earth they were given and it was transferred to satan and his crowd.


All of this will come to an end, in God’s timeframe, according to His plan.

That it is allowed is obvious as are the plans to bring it to an end. The answer as to why it is allowed in the first place isn't as obvious.

 

[sdowney717]

1 Thessalonians 2:16Amplified Bible, Classic Edition (AMPC)
16 Forbidding and hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles (the nations) that they may be saved. So as always they fill up [to the brim the measure of] their sins. But God’s wrath has come upon them at last [completely and forever]!

A spiritual truth , after a creature fills up the measure, to the brim even of their sins, God's judgement comes upon them.

The Judgement of God's justice follows sin.
Hebrews 11:2521st Century King James Version (KJ21)
25 choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season,

 

[Postvieww]

That it is allowed is obvious as are the plans to bring it to an end. The answer as to why it is allowed in the first place isn't as obvious.

Even angels have freewill ! If they were not allowed to exercise it would not be freewill.

 

[Radrook]

Even angels have freewill !

But the same can be said about his not ever intervening based on human and angelic free will. Yet he has and promises that he will intervene.

 

[Postvieww]

But the same can be said about his not ever intervening based on human and angelic free will. Yet he has and promises that he will intervene.

At the appointed time He will intervene that time has not yet come. Prayer, spiritual warfare and Gods overall will restrains some evil but if you just look at our world today much is unchecked.

 

[Radrook]

At the appointed time He will intervene that time has not yet come. Prayer, spiritual warfare and Gods overall will restrains some evil but if you just look at our world today much is unchecked.

You offered free will as the reason that he chose to allow angels to come to earth marry women and produce Nephilim which resulted in his decision to bring the Noachian Flood. In short, his respect for free will prevented him from stopping that behavior from starting but it did not stop him from stopping it later. There is a contradiction there.

 

[Postvieww]

You offered free will as the reason that he chose to allow angels to come to earth marry women and produce Nephilim which resulted in his decision to bring the Noachian Flood. In short, his respect for free will prevented him from stopping that behavior from starting but it did not stop him from stopping it later. There is a contradiction there.

I see no contradiction I don’t believe the flood stopped the behavior. We still find Nephilim after the flood.

Genesis 6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

I believe the flood was to preserve a pure uncontaminated blood line of Noah, so Jesus could fulfill God’s plan of redemption.

Genesis 6:9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

It is my belief perfect in his generations does not refer to his standing with God, it refers to his DNA , his bloodline uncontaminated and thru which Jesus would come. The verse said Noah was a just man, that spoke to his standing before God.

Verse 9 starts with “these are the generations of Noah”, and verse 10 list his sons, his blood line to follow and thru their descendants would come Jesus.

 

[Radrook]

r

I see no contradiction I don’t believe the flood stopped the behavior. We still find Nephilim after the flood.

Genesis 6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

I believe the flood was to preserve a pure uncontaminated blood line of Noah, so Jesus could fulfill God’s plan of redemption.

Genesis 6:9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

It is my belief perfect in his generations does not refer to his standing with God, it refers to his DNA , his bloodline uncontaminated and thru which Jesus would come. The verse said Noah was a just man, that spoke to his standing before God.

Verse 9 starts with “these are the generations of Noah”, and verse 10 list his sons, his blood line to follow and thru their descendants would come Jesus.

But if indeed so, then the Flood failed since the angels were once more taking women and procreating. That goes contrary to what Peter told us befell those angels during the Flood. It tells us they were restrained.

2 Peter 2:4. Here we read that "God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but cast them into Tartarus and committed them to pits of darkness (sirois zophou), reserved for judgment". The allusion is to the angels that intermarried with human females.

If that report was merely what the spies THOUGHT they were seeing, then there is no contradiction. But then we have the problem I-f the statement of after that. Which brings up the question: After what happened? After there were giants? What happened after there were giants? Men of renown appeared among the offspring. So there seems to be a division between the giants who were not renown and the ones who came after who were sons of angels and women but who were renown? A very problematic passage if we are to assume that both were human angelic hybrids. Seems as if the giants might have not been of angelic descent but merely big and clumsy humans while those that followed were the real hybrids and they became renown?

 

[Postvieww]

But if indeed so, then the Flood failed since the angels were once more taking women and procreating. That goes contrary to what Peter told us befell those angels during the Flood. It tells us they were restrained.

2 Peter 2:4. Here we read that "God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but cast them into Tartarus and committed them to pits of darkness (sirois zophou), reserved for judgment". The allusion is to the angels that intermarried with human females.

If that report was merely what the spies THOUGHT they were seeing, then there is no contradiction.

The flood did not fail, Jesus was born, and God’s promise was fulfilled. The are many theories on why Nephilim continued and we have limited information available. Let me just offer a possible solution. All fallen angels did not participate many are free today working their evil. I see no contradiction with Jude, the ones that did participate are held in chains Jude simply does not say that happened all at one time. What we know for sure is there are Nephilim before and after the flood.

 

[Dave-W]

I believe the flood was to preserve a pure uncontaminated blood line of Noah, so Jesus could fulfill God’s plan of redemption.

That is the contention of the Book of Enoch. But (for almost all of) us that is not a book in the canon. It may contain some truths, but cannot be looked at as infallible or used as the basis of doctrine.

 

[Dave-W]

All fallen angels did not participate many are free today working their evil.

That would line up with Paul's meaning:

Ephesians 6:12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.

Many commentators see those 4 groupings (principalities, powers, rulers of darkness, spiritual hosts of wickedness) as classes of fallen angels. Whatever they are, they are certainly in operation today.

 

[Radrook]

The flood did not fail, Jesus was born, and God’s promise was fulfilled. The are many theories on why Nephilim continued and we have limited information available. Let me just offer a possible solution. All fallen angels did not participate many are free today working their evil. I see no contradiction with Jude, the ones that did participate are held in chains Jude simply does not say that happened all at one time. What we know for sure is there are Nephilim before and after the flood.

I am not convinced that the spies wee just misreporting what they saw. Permission of genetic contamination via the SAME type of angelic disobedience after a flood specifically designed to terminate genetic contamination via angelic disobedience seems a rather uselessly redundant way to go about things. Jesus 'line of descent was protected by the survival of Noah and the choosing of Shem. Israel was God's nation through whom the Messiah would arrive.
That had been assured by the Flood and NOTHING could stop it. Then along come angels again and begin the same attempt and God permits it? I just can't see it. So I guess we differ on that point of view.

 

[more4less]

Why not truncate that intervention at the root by limiting angelic ability to materialize and to have viable offspring from women?

I know that there are in many women darkest fantasies to be sexually ravaged by Angels. But as it says that sexual immorality doesn't comes from God, but it has came from the world. The forbidden fruit is of the world.

John 3:6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.

Matthew 22:30 At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.

1 John 2:16 For everything in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—comes not from the Father but from the world.

 

[Radrook]

I know that there are in many women darkest fantasies to be sexually ravaged by Angels. But as it says that sexual immorality doesn't comes from God, but it has came from the world. The forbidden fruit is of the world.

John 3:6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.

Matthew 22:30 At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.

1 John 2:16 For everything in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—comes not from the Father but from the world.

I actually met a woman who gleefully spoke about that nightly ravishing visit as normal and talked about other women who spoke the same way. It seems that although unable to materialize they are still interested in human females. Note also that most mediums are female. Question is why allow this?

 

[Postvieww]

That is the contention of the Book of Enoch. But (for almost all of) us that is not a book in the canon. It may contain some truths, but cannot be looked at as infallible or used as the basis of doctrine.

You are correct it is the contention in the book of Enoch you are also correct it is not in our cannon. I believe to issue with that here is Enoch in plain language which cannot be interpreted in any other way says the same thing Genesis 6 says but we have the misfortune of being able to argue about the meaning of the “sons of God “ in Genesis 6. It is my belief there is no scriptural way to make the “sons of God” in Genesis 6 human men. That being said we do not need the book of Enoch to come to the same conclusion.


I respect and understand your reluctance to give any weight to Enoch I would just say while it is not cannon for most (it is in the Ethiopian church) it was quoted by Jude in our cannon and had some historical relevance at least, to him.

 

[Dave-W]

I respect and understand your reluctance to give any weight to Enoch I would just say while it is not cannon for most (it is in the Ethiopian church) it was quoted by Jude in our cannon and had some historical relevance at least, to him.

Not just Jude. Peter and Paul seem to allude to it as well (but not actually quote it). IOW, it was a popular book in theological circles in the first century.

But in those same circles, "son of God" does not necessarily mean (and usually does NOT mean) a divine being. See Daniel Boyarin's book "The Jewish Gospels."

https://www.amazon.com/Jewish-Gospels-Story-Christ/dp/1595588787

 

[sdowney717]

There were Nephilim before and after the flood.
Genesis 6
4 There were giants on the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men and they bore children to them, the same became mighty men who were of old, men of renown.

After God destroyed that world at the time of the flood, the fallen angels knew God would not destroy the world again with water, but by fire and a long time to wait for that, they would have no fear of an arrest and imprisonment for them till it was the time of the end when all of them would be judged along with the world. They would not have hesitated to do the same sins as did their fellows who were afterwards in chains to await the judgement of the great day.

Matthew 8:29-3121st Century King James Version (KJ21)
29 And behold, they cried out, saying, “What have we to do with Thee, Jesus, Thou Son of God? Art Thou come hither to torment us before the time?”

30 Now there was a good way off from them a herd of many swine feeding.

31 So the devils besought Him, saying, “If Thou cast us out, suffer us to go away into the herd of swine.”

Although, I do believe God after the last incursion of fallen angels creating Nephilim giants mentioned in Numbers, God destroyed them to their roots, so then forward from that time did not allow the fallen angels to sin this way again.

Numbers 13:32-33New King James Version (NKJV)
32 And they gave the children of Israel a bad report of the land which they had spied out, saying, “The land through which we have gone as spies is a land that devours its inhabitants, and all the people whom we saw in it are men of great stature. 33 There we saw the giants (the descendants of Anak came from the giants); and we were like grasshoppers in our own sight, and so we were in their sight.”

Footnotes:

1. Numbers 13:33 Hebrew nephilim

These nephilim, showed up when God was doing a work of bringing into His promised land His people, so of course the fallen angels who oppose God followed as they desire to do to prevent God's promises from occuring, their prior highly successful strategy of corrupting the world again as they had before, knowing it would be destroyed by fire and only at the appointed time of the end. The Christ would be born in the land of Israel, and they sought to prevent His birth and life as did Herod when Christ was born in Bethlehem.

In Amos 5, we read God destroys the giants to their very root, which I also take this to mean, their will be no more nephilim. The Amorites were of the race of the Nephilim as was the Rephaites and some others.

Amos 2:8-10New King James Version (NKJV)
8 They lie down by every altar on clothes taken in pledge,
And drink the wine of the condemned in the house of their god.

9 “Yet it was I who destroyed the Amorite before them,
Whose height was like the height of the cedars,
And he was as strong as the oaks;
Yet I destroyed his fruit above
And his roots beneath.
10 Also it was I who brought you up from the land of Egypt,
And led you forty years through the wilderness,
To possess the land of the Amorite.