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Why We Should not Pray to the Saints

Discussion in 'Mariology & Hagiography' started by JediMobius, Jan 10, 2012.

How important is venerating (and praying to) the saints?

  1. It's essential to our faith!

  2. Quite important, but understandable if some disagree.

  3. It couldn't hurt.

  4. I'm undecided, or don't really care.

  5. Faith is personal, no point arguing about it.

  6. The bible doesn't actually support it, so not very.

  7. It's tantamount to idolatry!

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  1. jackmt

    jackmt Newbie

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    Answer me first. On what basis do you claim it is not?
     
  2. Eternally Optimistic

    Eternally Optimistic Newbie

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    I claim that prayer is more than merely the ability to move ones lips from Scripture...as noted in my previous post.
     
  3. jackmt

    jackmt Newbie

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    So you lean on your own understanding? Prov.3:5
     
  4. Eternally Optimistic

    Eternally Optimistic Newbie

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    that really does not in any way demonstrate or answer, from Scripture, as you claim as your basis for the belief that a physical nature is required for prayer, and in fact is rather ironic, for I could easy say the same for you. I have provided a reference to prayer supporting my belief that it is a spiritual exercise, not merely a physical one, and you have not yet provided any support from Scripture or Tradition (I'll expand it for you there) to support your claim...and yet I'm the one leaning on my own understanding? Again...irony.
     
  5. jackmt

    jackmt Newbie

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    I do not maintain that a physical nature is necessary for prayer. I maintain that Scripture forbids praying to the physically dead. Outside yourself, what is your authority?
     
  6. Eternally Optimistic

    Eternally Optimistic Newbie

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    Scripture opposes divination, which is not the same thing as intercession, as I am sure you are well aware.

    Also, in the OT, there was no Church, the Body of Christ. God had not established it yet, thus obviously there were not those in heaven, still alive because of Christ...now, by God's grace there are those in heaven, still alive, and able to pray.
     
  7. Incariol

    Incariol Newbie

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    "When I am dead, come to me at my grave, and the more often the better. Whatever is on your soul, whatever may have happened to you, come to me as when I was alive, and kneeling on the ground, cast all your bitterness upon my grave. Tell me everything and I shall listen to you, and all your bitterness will fly away from you. As you spoke to me when I was alive, do so now. For I am living, and shall be for ever." --St. Seraphim of Sarov

    [​IMG]
     
  8. jackmt

    jackmt Newbie

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    You're too slick for me. An eel would envy you.
     
  9. andreha

    andreha Senior Contributor

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    I have to agree with you bro. One of the most powerful miracles I've ever experienced happened right after a silent prayer, while I was paralysed.
     
  10. JesusFreak78

    JesusFreak78 Reformed Baptist Supporter

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    My questions for those who believe you should/can pray to saints:

    1) Where is biblical evidence for they can hear your prayer?

    2) If you can find biblical evidence for they can hear your prayer, how do you know they listen to your prayer and not someone else prayer or are they omnipresent so they can hear everyone's prayers all around the world at the same time?
     
  11. Thekla

    Thekla Guest

    Physical proximity is not needed for spiritual hearing; the man in Macedonia who prayed Paul to come was heard by Paul in the Holy Spirit, though separated by a great distance.

    Physical proximity does not account for accurate hearing, and this is documented in Scripture ("he who has ears to hear ...").

    The body experiences through time and space - as the body is part of dimensional creation. Man, dust, became a living soul through the breath of God, thus he also has a non-dimensional, spiritual aspect of his whole being.

    Those who are absent from the body, and present with Christ, are spiritually alive but this is not the same as being dimensionally active; as for how they "hear, it is through the Holy Spirit. As for how they experience this hearing - I do not know. We still experience sequential (chronological) time; but to be with God is to be beyond and above time, and of this we may have a foretaste now, but not more ...

    In Revelation, the prayers of the saints (on earth) are presented to God in heaven - certainly, what is prayed here is known. We do not circumscribe the Holy Spirit, Who binds the body of Christ.
     
    DrBubbaLove likes this.
  12. Eternally Optimistic

    Eternally Optimistic Newbie

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    we are a body, with one Spirit uniting us all; so just as our body parts, though separate are none the less a single entity, so too the Church. Those in heaven know fully as they are fully known, and are like Him, as they see Him as He is.
     
  13. Eternally Optimistic

    Eternally Optimistic Newbie

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    ad hominem=concession
     
  14. Thekla

    Thekla Guest

    For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ. For in the one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and we were all made to drink of one Spirit. Indeed, the body does not consist of one member but of many. If the foot would say, “Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body,” that would not make it any less a part of the body. And if the ear would say, “Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body,” that would not make it any less a part of the body. If the whole body were an eye, where would the hearing be? If the whole body were hearing, where would the sense of smell be? But as it is, God arranged the members in the body, each one of them, as he chose. If all were a single member, where would the body be? As it is, there are many members, yet one body. The eye cannot say to the hand, “I have no need of you,” nor again the head to the feet, “I have no need of you.” On the contrary, the members of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, and those members of the body that we think less honorable we clothe with greater honor, and our less respectable members are treated with greater respect; whereas our more respectable members do not need this. But God has so arranged the body, giving the greater honor to the inferior member, that there may be no dissension within the body, but the members may have the same care for one another. If one member suffers, all suffer together with it; if one member is glorified, all rejoice together. Paul's first letter to the Corinthians, chapter 12


    I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance. Luke 15:7
     
  15. jackmt

    jackmt Newbie

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    You refuse to address the issues I raise. Instead, you repeat the same question over and over, dodging the issue. Is this not because you know that if you do address my issues you will have to concede that you have been in error?
     
  16. Eternally Optimistic

    Eternally Optimistic Newbie

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    your question, as I read, was where does Scripture indicate that prayer is more Spiritual than physical...

    you then pointed out that Scripture is opposed to consulting the dead. I agree.

    My point though is that because of Christ, those in Christ are not dead, my belief in that comes directly from the Gospel and the New Testament epistles. There bodies may be dead, but through the Grace of Christ they are Spiritual alive, and through the Church, sharing one Spirit, we are all united, ergo through this communion, we can and do pray for one another, those on earth and those in heaven.
     
  17. jackmt

    jackmt Newbie

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    No. You're twisting my question to suit your answer.
     
  18. Eternally Optimistic

    Eternally Optimistic Newbie

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    then what is your question? Truly, I responded to what I understood it to be...personal animosity over the internet is...well sad.
     
  19. jackmt

    jackmt Newbie

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    ad hominem - abusive

    And I now feel so ... well, inferior. You win.
     
  20. Eternally Optimistic

    Eternally Optimistic Newbie

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    okay...as a fellow passive-aggressive one, I salute this response; but honestly what was your question, at this point I honestly don't recall.