Why We Should not Pray to the Saints

[DrBubbaLove]

I think it sets a precedent in how much authority Scripture really carries when it comes down to personal faith and biblical doctrines... I have to assume that the plain sense of Scripture is not available to you because you are compelled to view it through a different sort of lens...eg Catholic dogma, traditions and Church Fathers.

But according to Scripture itself, it is only thru the prism of someone else teaching us that it can be properly understood. So am not sure why I should just accept only what occurs "plainly" to me.
And I think (and clearly history shows) such an approach is more likely to result in a wide range of beliefs and divide Christians rather than unite. So if am asked which is better, viewing through a united prism of dogma or letting everyone find their own way - am going to go with united everytime.

I don't believe the historical evidence shows this was a widely accepted practice throughout the Body until around 300 years or so later, from my investigations there arose the practice of celebrating the life and death of various people who had been martyred which was a fair enough and understandable tradition...but it eventually extended to seeking their help and guidance and thus crossed over the line.

Am sure that is a popular belief in some circles. Am not so sure that holds ups as to hard evidence.
Hermas's story in the first century seems to have been quite popular among Christians. In it there is a discourse with a guardian angel and his main character is asked by the angel why he has been praying to him for requests rather than just asking God directly. Being able to express that (- a prayer to someone other that God -) as a secondary element in a story written for other Christians, would have to mean at least some Christians are doing it.

That is first century and is written before the last Apostle dies.

So not only do we have someone writing about it in the first century, we would have to assume people are doing it in order for it to be mentioned as a passing element of a story AND we have no record of any Apostle objecting to such a thing. I find the later to be especially troublesome for those who deny this practice because the NT is full of letters admonishing groups of Christian for doing this or that, some major things and yet also some very minor issues.

So to imagine first this practice is wrong, even if only a minor offense, , then enough people are doing this that a popular Christian story includes mention of such a practice and then to have no Apostles or other NT writter speak out against it is beyond believable to me.

I can only think that because the leaders of the predominently Roman Catholic Church accepted this, it became regular practice...but it is not biblically acceptable. Not so much because it is attempting to commune with the dead, but because such a vital doctrine would not have been omitted...and we have to take a stance on who has the final authority concerning such a practice.

Certainly there was no formally recognized RCC when this practice started and would not be one for close to 400 years, but I appreciate the sentiment that even though it is not formally recognized for several centuries every Christian was then (and still is) a part of the same Church that was established by God Himself about 33 AD. Am not sure it is accurate to describe the Church in that period as "predominately" Catholic as there was still at that point only the Church. One was either united with them or not.

Unclear why this is seen as "vital doctrine" for Catholics or maybe not sure what is meant by that. The Apostles in writing are focused on salvation and keeping the flock headed to Heaven. So if by vital one means required for salvation then, no I not see it as "vital". The NT is however full of commands for us to pray for one another. The Saints are certainly part of the same Body and already being with Jesus they are more "alive" than we are so am also unclear how asking them to pray for us is equal to talking to the dead and certainly not necromancy.

I understand what you are trying to say, but that is a very poor argument...I agree there are many things that are not written explicitly down in the Bible which we do...including a variety of traditions and practices...but when any of these go beyond what is considered good and proper there will always be a problem.

I guess it comes down to what is good and proper. As to web sites full of prayers am not familiar with those but do know they exist. Also know some people carry the practice too far. But we could say that about many things we all do. So am not sure that some people misbehaving or abusing a practice is a compass we want to use in evaluating whether or not it is proper to be doing it at all.

As to being a "very poor argument" if that is so I wonder then how anyone could use it to exclude the practice altogether simply because some people abuse it. I personally do not know any Catholics that do, but am sure it happens. Besides an occasional appeal to my patron and rarely St Jude (lost causes) for me the practice is limited to my Mary and my guardian.

I don't pray to the Saints, Angels or Mary...not because I am not a Catholic, but because I believe it is wrong and I can find nothing biblically based in these practices, in fact there are several places that indicate these go beyond what is good, wholesome and acceptable...and a cursory glance at the many prayers on Catholic websites to these individuals thoroughly confirms my disquiet.

And I could say similar things about some Protestant practices, so am not sure where that gets us.
BTW I do not agree the Bible anywhere prohibits it and if it did I would find it even harder to imagine Hermas writing what he did without being condemned by name by an Apostles. The only thing people throw out is OT law against necromancy, which would be like comparing graven images laws to having icons.

Somebody putting up a website can call it whatever they want, it does not mean it is representative of what Catholics do or teach. Just saying. Note you will not find any of that in the Catechism or any official Church site. But I do happen to think there is nothing wrong with the majority of those prayers are harmless as far as being beyond wholesome goes.

Tut tut...There are those things we have to use the sense G-d gave us with, and other things that are important to get a solid doctrinal perspective on. Prayer groups are mentioned throughout the Bible in one form or another...but seeking help or advice from anyone in Heaven apart from G-d is just not a viable option.

Not viable because.....???????
Most prayers I am familiar with are similar to the Hail Mary, asking someone to "help" in saying those prayers is nothing more than asking that person to pray for us, which is in our view what all those verses you mention are telling ALL Christians to do for each other.
There is nothing in those verses to suggest that what is obviously an important role for ALL Christians to play as a member of One Body must end when our life here comes to an end.

As for asking advice I think that is harmless as well as we would do no less if the person was standing in front of us and most of us, whether we admit it or not do so with departed loved ones. To some degree expecting a direct response may be wishful thinking to request for advice, but I do not preclude the possibility of some interaction and certainly the Bible has examples of such interactions, but with Heavenly hosts and people who have departed.

That's a fair enough comment...I think that these sort of things come to the fore when discussing them on the Forums, and then get undue focus...but I have the impression that many Catholics and Orthodox will defend them to the death in these posts, as they somehow affirm their spiritual identity which they believe is under attack.

Yes, well I suspect that is due to the frequent viciousness of the attacks of the practice tends to make us a little sensitive.

Again I understand your point. For myself I don't see the Body of Messiah divided into Catholics and Protestants...I see brethren from all sorts of different traditions...My concern is always to differentiate between those who truly love the L-rd, and those who pay lip-service to Jesus and are merely caught up in a religious life-style. I think the foremost concern for all of us who believe in the L-rd, is the desire to conform to His Image, to serve Him and be obedient to His commands/sayings/will.

Agree, as already stated in not so many words.

But if you truly believe Scripture shows we can pray to the departed Believers, why o why don't we see it practiced.[\quote] I do beginning with Hermas - The Shepherd, which none of the Apostles or their disciples condemn.

What I see is an attempt to justify an untenable position by using the flimsiest of possible references that has no doctrinal substance at all behind it...theologically it is weightless.

Weightless because.....???? Because you do not believe it.

It cannot be theologically weightless on the grounds that the departed Saints are no longer part of the Body of Christians. it cannot be weightless on the grounds that the Apostles are quoted saying a Christian's duty, the call to pray for one another ends with this life. It cannot be weightless on the grounds the prayers of a righteous man "availeth much" for certainly the Saints are righteous. It cannot be weightless on the grounds the Saints are dead for they are in a very real since more alive than we are. Could go on but you get the point.

I have not tried to make the claim of necromancy...others have already done that...my concern is that we embrace what is right and true, what is godly and acceptable, and both biblically and historically I cannot see how this practice can be endorsed...even a few moments thinking through the implications of such things presents insurmountable problems.

No but I thought you had alluded, as many do, to Scripture precluding or prohibiting it. If not using those verses to say it is prohibited then to say it is cannot be endorsed Biblically is only saying you think it is omitted and therefore CANNOT be endorsed.

While I do not agree it is totally omitted, we already went over and I thought we agreed that approach could be used to say many things we do are "not endorsed". Am unclear on how talking to my Dad or Mary or a guardian angel presents insurmountable problems or bad implications.

Yet it has about as much Scriptural endorsement as the practice of praying to departed Believers surely?

One verse taken out of context and abused - compare that against all the verses about Christians praying for one another, the prayers in Psalms to Heavenly Hosts, pleas to Abraham, human prayers offered by angels in Heaven to God, humans in Heaven offering prayers of humans to God - and we are suppose to conclude there "about as much". Can't buy that comparison, sorry.

I do agree people take verses out of context, which goes back to why it would be important to know how early Christians viewed these verses and what they practiced. I submit there is enough evidence this was a common practice very early in the Church and one that if we are going to say it was wrong, was occurring without a SINGLE mention against it by any Apostle or their immediate predecessors. Now that I would find hard to swallow.

 

[Zeek]

Originally Posted by Zazal

I think it sets a precedent in how much authority Scripture really carries when it comes down to personal faith and biblical doctrines... I have to assume that the plain sense of Scripture is not available to you because you are compelled to view it through a different sort of lens...eg Catholic dogma, traditions and Church Fathers.
​

But according to Scripture itself, it is only thru the prism of someone else teaching us that it can be properly understood. So am not sure why I should just accept only what occurs "plainly" to me.
And I think (and clearly history shows) such an approach is more likely to result in a wide range of beliefs and divide Christians rather than unite. So if am asked which is better, viewing through a united prism of dogma or letting everyone find their own way - am going to go with united everytime.

Hi Bubba,

I was going to reply further to the post before...but I think I will lose continuity...so will just carry on from here...please bring up any point that I overlook and you require a response to...thanks.

I don't understand where you get the idea you can't understand Scripture for yourself, and need someone else to teach you what things really mean. I have always appreciated teachers of all sorts, that are able to bring things out of the Bible and give insight into certain passages...but from the very moment I was filled with the Holy Spirit, my testimony has been that G-d has shown me and taught me things simply through reading His Word, and being obedient to what is in it. Most other Believers that I know would testify to this as well.

From another view-point, you could say that people who deferred to the teachings of others, were open to being mislead, especially if their ecclesiastic position places them on a pedestal and somehow makes them unchallengeable. I think it is a far healthier position for people to be able to question and challenge when the need arises...in fact I think we are exhorted to do so several times...and to be careful what we accept as true.

I don't believe the historical evidence shows this was a widely accepted practice throughout the Body until around 300 years or so later, from my investigations there arose the practice of celebrating the life and death of various people who had been martyred which was a fair enough and understandable tradition...but it eventually extended to seeking their help and guidance and thus crossed over the line.
​

Am sure that is a popular belief in some circles. Am not so sure that holds ups as to hard evidence.
Hermas's story in the first century seems to have been quite popular among Christians. In it there is a discourse with a guardian angel and his main character is asked by the angel why he has been praying to him for requests rather than just asking God directly. Being able to express that (- a prayer to someone other that God -) as a secondary element in a story written for other Christians, would have to mean at least some Christians are doing it.

That is first century and is written before the last Apostle dies.

I think I made the point that as far as I had discovered, it wasn't widely accepted until at least 300 AD...I don't dispute that it might have been practiced by some.
I don't think many people see the Shepherd of Hermas as authoratitive in any way...although it might give a further insight into some traditions and practices.
​

So not only do we have someone writing about it in the first century, we would have to assume people are doing it in order for it to be mentioned as a passing element of a story AND we have no record of any Apostle objecting to such a thing. I find the later to be especially troublesome for those who deny this practice because the NT is full of letters admonishing groups of Christian for doing this or that, some major things and yet also some very minor issues.

The Apostles probably didn't object because it hadn't become established in their lifetime...but they also must have believed that there was enough teaching in the letters circulating in the various Assemblies, that would be evidence enough not to participate in such activities.

So to imagine first this practice is wrong, even if only a minor offense, , then enough people are doing this that a popular Christian story includes mention of such a practice and then to have no Apostles or other NT writter speak out against it is beyond believable to me.

I have to disagree...what is beyond believable is that throughout the Bible and with the hundreds of references to prayer...not one of them gives any intimation that praying to departed Believers is sanctioned...and the very core of how prayer is performed, clearly demonstrates it is directly to G-d...this means even those friends that pray for you, are directing their prayers to G-d, no-one else.
You cannot make a case for a practice that has no framework whatsoever...and the few Scriptures that are used in justifying praying to departed Believers, are very tenuous.



​

I can only think that because the leaders of the predominently Roman Catholic Church accepted this, it became regular practice...but it is not biblically acceptable. Not so much because it is attempting to commune with the dead, but because such a vital doctrine would not have been omitted...and we have to take a stance on who has the final authority concerning such a practice.
​

Certainly there was no formally recognized RCC when this practice started and would not be one for close to 400 years, but I appreciate the sentiment that even though it is not formally recognized for several centuries every Christian was then (and still is) a part of the same Church that was established by God Himself about 33 AD. Am not sure it is accurate to describe the Church in that period as "predominately" Catholic as there was still at that point only the Church. One was either united with them or not.

Unclear why this is seen as "vital doctrine" for Catholics or maybe not sure what is meant by that. The Apostles in writing are focused on salvation and keeping the flock headed to Heaven. So if by vital one means required for salvation then, no I not see it as "vital". The NT is however full of commands for us to pray for one another. The Saints are certainly part of the same Body and already being with Jesus they are more "alive" than we are so am also unclear how asking them to pray for us is equal to talking to the dead and certainly not necromancy.

I call it 'vital'...because if there is truth behind this doctrine, then I am missing out big-time, and I could expect a far better success rate to my prayers is I didn't always take them to G-d, but looked up which venerated soul had overcome similar hardships to what I go through, and seek his advice, help and guidence, while asking him to throw in a few of his own prayers for good measure. For me to adopt such a position would be to move into the Twilight Zone of faith, and to depart from the confidence I have in knowing what is faithful and true from the teachings in Scripture.
​

I understand what you are trying to say, but that is a very poor argument...I agree there are many things that are not written explicitly down in the Bible which we do...including a variety of traditions and practices...but when any of these go beyond what is considered good and proper there will always be a problem.
​

I guess it comes down to what is good and proper. As to web sites full of prayers am not familiar with those but do know they exist. Also know some people carry the practice too far. But we could say that about many things we all do. So am not sure that some people misbehaving or abusing a practice is a compass we want to use in evaluating whether or not it is proper to be doing it at all.

As to being a "very poor argument" if that is so I wonder then how anyone could use it to exclude the practice altogether simply because some people abuse it. I personally do not know any Catholics that do, but am sure it happens. Besides an occasional appeal to my patron and rarely St Jude (lost causes) for me the practice is limited to my Mary and my guardian.

I would suggest that the 'abuse' is merely a natural outcome of something that cannot be justified and in reality cannot be properly taught or monitored...and those that have taught it from hundreds of years ago have a degree of responsibility to all those dear souls who have got caught up in a religious quagmire...it is those teachers and todays teachers that perpetuate these 'myths' that will be accountable. The worse abuses teeter on idolatry as far as I can see...where so-called veneration has given way to unashamed worship in a manner that takes away from something that onlu G-d Himself is due.

So ultimately it is pretty serious, and even if you or others are not excessive, the example you give (and teach indirectly) to others...does not guarantee that they won't go beyond what even you would see as wrong.
In a sense it is putting a stumbling-block before people.
​

​

I don't pray to the Saints, Angels or Mary...not because I am not a Catholic, but because I believe it is wrong and I can find nothing biblically based in these practices, in fact there are several places that indicate these go beyond what is good, wholesome and acceptable...and a cursory glance at the many prayers on Catholic websites to these individuals thoroughly confirms my disquiet.
​

And I could say similar things about some Protestant practices, so am not sure where that gets us.
BTW I do not agree the Bible anywhere prohibits it and if it did I would find it even harder to imagine Hermas writing what he did without being condemned by name by an Apostles. The only thing people throw out is OT law against necromancy, which would be like comparing graven images laws to having icons.

Somebody putting up a website can call it whatever they want, it does not mean it is representative of what Catholics do or teach. Just saying. Note you will not find any of that in the Catechism or any official Church site. But I do happen to think there is nothing wrong with the majority of those prayers are harmless as far as being beyond wholesome goes.

I have posted many of these prayers on this site months ago... you can't escape what they say...just do a little research yourself...type in prayers to Mary and the Saints, or prayers to Angels, and see what comes up...I was shocked, because Catholic friends were always assuring me they only honour or venerate Mary, Angels and the Saints...but many many of these sites go waaaay past that...please just look and see if what I am saying is true...be objective.

There are many what you call Protestant practices that I would equally challenge and object to....I find that much of the Body in these days is rife with peculiar beliefs, apathy and grumblings, and is a very poor witness to the Lost...and whether I like it or not, I am part of this Body, but I thank G-d that we can look to Jesus to change us, and conform us to His image. I believe there is a time of serious purging coming, where the Spirit is calling us to HOLINESS.

​

Tut tut...There are those things we have to use the sense G-d gave us with, and other things that are important to get a solid doctrinal perspective on. Prayer groups are mentioned throughout the Bible in one form or another...but seeking help or advice from anyone in Heaven apart from G-d is just not a viable option.
​

Not viable because.....???????
Most prayers I am familiar with are similar to the Hail Mary, asking someone to "help" in saying those prayers is nothing more than asking that person to pray for us, which is in our view what all those verses you mention are telling ALL Christians to do for each other.
There is nothing in those verses to suggest that what is obviously an important role for ALL Christians to play as a member of One Body must end when our life here comes to an end.

Well its not viable because it isn't taught or practiced anywhere in the pages of the Bible.
Just how do you propose a departed Believer aids us...where is your evidence?

continued....
​

 

[Zeek]

As for asking advice I think that is harmless as well as we would do no less if the person was standing in front of us and most of us, whether we admit it or not do so with departed loved ones. To some degree expecting a direct response may be wishful thinking to request for advice, but I do not preclude the possibility of some interaction and certainly the Bible has examples of such interactions, but with Heavenly hosts and people who have departed.

I think this is called 'clutching at straws'.
Scripture assures us G-d hears our prayers...it never teaches or assures us that departed souls hear our prayers, or can respond to them...so any prayers to them cannot be based on faith, only theological assumption.
It is vital when we pray to pray in faith, knowing we are touching G-ds heart...otherwise it is an exercise in futility...The Bible teaches us to pray 'confidently'

1John 5:14 This is the confidence which we have before Him, that, if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us.

Hebrews 4:16 ... So let us come boldly to the throne of our gracious God. There we will receive his
mercy, and we will find grace to help us when we need it most. ...

That's a fair enough comment...I think that these sort of things come to the fore when discussing them on the Forums, and then get undue focus...but I have the impression that many Catholics and Orthodox will defend them to the death in these posts, as they somehow affirm their spiritual identity which they believe is under attack.
​

Yes, well I suspect that is due to the frequent viciousness of the attacks of the practice tends to make us a little sensitive.

Ahhh it just helps toughen you up mate....if you want to compare viscious attacks, I could tell you a few things about tip-toeing around OBOB.

What I have found is that there are many Catholic and Orthodox brethren here that I really enjoy discussing things with, and that even though we may disagree on some basic traditions...I still see the same Spirit in them that is in me. The only exception to this has been when I have had to confront some teachings that are so virulently opposed to Israel and the Jews I cannot be silent or ignore such prejudice.
​

Sorry have to cut it short there...no time left.

Kind regards. Zazal
​

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Hi Bubba,
I don't understand where you get the idea you can't understand Scripture for yourself, and need someone else to teach you what things really mean. I have always appreciated teachers of all sorts, that are able to bring things out of the Bible and give insight into certain passages...but from the very moment I was filled with the Holy Spirit, my testimony has been that G-d has shown me and taught me things simply through reading His Word, and being obedient to what is in it. Most other Believers that I know would testify to this as well.

Hi Zazal
The comment was not intended to mean nothing is gained from individuals reading scripture and certainly not as far as things which are indeed very plain. Love your neighbor as yourself for example does not get much simpler. But to suggest that it is all plain or that everything God means for us ALL to know is plainly revealed there is grossly over stating the reality.

The hard reality is that as a collective Body of Believers we do not agree on many things, both things the Bible says and things we teach. God is not the author of confusion, but as a group right now we seem very confused. And we are confused even though I am sure most of us would just as sincerely as you did that we are being obedient to what is in His Word. So obviously the claim is not enough to stop the confusion.

From another view-point, you could say that people who deferred to the teachings of others, were open to being mislead, especially if their ecclesiastic position places them on a pedestal and somehow makes them unchallengeable. I think it is a far healthier position for people to be able to question and challenge when the need arises...in fact I think we are exhorted to do so several times...and to be careful what we accept as true.

I think anyone studying Church history quickly realizes things are constantly being challenged, from the 1st century to even today. Legend has it the first council depicted briefly in Acts was nearly a brawl.

So no, I do not agree it is a case of not being able to challenge. The need to challenge would arise if it were believed an error was being taught and that is what drives most such exchanges. It can flow either way too. Church leadership challenging someone for what they are teaching within the Church or a leader within the Church challenging what the Church is teaching. And BTW over history the majority/favored opinion did not always prevail.

There is at least one famous case where a lone Bishop (not Pope) actually stood against all others. So when we speak of challenges to teaching within the Church, they do and have occurred and occur today.

I suspect however the real concern here would be over whether as a laity one can object to what the Church is teaching. I submit that is what all Protestants are doing and a Catholic who objects would or should do. The laity vote with our feet and butts.

I think I made the point that as far as I had discovered, it wasn't widely accepted until at least 300 AD...I don't dispute that it might have been practiced by some.
I don't think many people see the Shepherd of Hermas as authoratitive in any way...although it might give a further insight into some traditions and practices.
​

I believe I said it was popular and that supported because some early Fathers quote from it. The suggestion here is that the practice is wrong and not just wrong, but depending on who is making the claim – it is boarding on evil to being outright wickedness. So I submit it is more than insight into the traditions of and practices of "SOME" early Christians.

I do not think it is credible to believe one can have a book circulating as popular reading among Christians that is displaying a practice which is claimed to be boarding on evil or outright wickedness without a single Apostle or their disciples or early Fathers objecting.

The Apostles probably didn't object because it hadn't become established in their lifetime...but they also must have believed that there was enough teaching in the letters circulating in the various Assemblies, that would be evidence enough not to participate in such activities.
​

I think it is pretty well accepted that it was written early in the middle of the 1st century, which is well before the last Apostles dies. The quotes by early Fathers late 1st and early second also establish it as a well circulated reading by the end of the first century.

And BTW the point of bringing it up is NOT that this story teaches praying to martyrs or people in Heaven or to angels, because it does not. It supports that it was already a common practice when the story is written. The author is able to use that practice as a basic element of his story, ie that his main character prayed to an angel. If most Christians were not already praying to Heaven host/those in Heaven, the author would have to spend time in the beginning of the story explaining why his main character was doing it.

I have to disagree...what is beyond believable is that throughout the Bible and with the hundreds of references to prayer...not one of them gives any intimation that praying to departed Believers is sanctioned...and the very core of how prayer is performed, clearly demonstrates it is directly to G-d...this means even those friends that pray for you, are directing their prayers to G-d, no-one else.
You cannot make a case for a practice that has no framework whatsoever...and the few Scriptures that are used in justifying praying to departed Believers, are very tenuous.
​

Actually there are no "Saints" "in Heaven" until towards the end of the Bible, so if we are going to restrict such prayer to people, we would need to restrict looking for that to the NT and mostly the later portion of it. Initially they all beleive it would shortly be over, no worries about Saints in Heaven or praying to them because they would all soon join them.

However the OT does have Scriptures (Psalms for example) that are given in the form of Prayer and include appeals to hosts in Heaven. We would call that an example of praying to a being other than God. So clearly the idea we are ONLY to pray to God cannot be correct.

I call it 'vital'...because if there is truth behind this doctrine, then I am missing out big-time, and I could expect a far better success rate to my prayers is I didn't always take them to G-d, but looked up which venerated soul had overcome similar hardships to what I go through, and seek his advice, help and guidence, while asking him to throw in a few of his own prayers for good measure. For me to adopt such a position would be to move into the Twilight Zone of faith, and to depart from the confidence I have in knowing what is faithful and true from the teachings in Scripture.
​

Ok, I see the point of "vital" and do agree that doing so expands one’s prayer group.

I do not agree that makes it vital as am not sure that it necessarily makes for a higher "success rate" but that would depend on how one defines success in prayer life. Many do not accept that the answer can be "no" or "not now" or "be patient"…etc. To me those are answers, and equally successful as having what we thought we needed granted. And yes, I have read prayers that suggest "success" as you meant it is guaranteed. I do not believe those are proper prayers.

As far as seeing a Saint as a counselor giving guidance that is not my practice, not something I have ever heard taught in the Church and nothing I have heard of anyone doing. I do sometimes speak with my guardian angel in such a manner, but I do not consider that as much a prayer as I do a relationship – different topic.

I would suggest that the 'abuse' is merely a natural outcome of something that cannot be justified and in reality cannot be properly taught or monitored...and those that have taught it from hundreds of years ago have a degree of responsibility to all those dear souls who have got caught up in a religious quagmire...it is those teachers and todays teachers that perpetuate these 'myths' that will be accountable. The worse abuses teeter on idolatry as far as I can see...where so-called veneration has given way to unashamed worship in a manner that takes away from something that onlu G-d Himself is due.
​

I would suggest we are a Church full of sinners and one cannot judge the lot or practices of the lot by what a few bad apples do.

Again, I can only give you my experience, which has been such practices are not mainstream and where they do exist and have undue popularity I know for a fact the Church asks the faithful to stay away.

We had such a place near a Parish I once attended and were warned against going there. Very few of the people we knew went. My wife and I went once out of curiosity (I know kills the cat), saw no one from our very large Parish there and ended up leaving as it was a circus. So while I agree it can be abused and that such abuse is wrong, I do not agree evidence of such abuse makes wrong what the Church teaches as correct and proper to do.

So ultimately it is pretty serious, and even if you or others are not excessive, the example you give (and teach indirectly) to others...does not guarantee that they won't go beyond what even you would see as wrong.
In a sense it is putting a stumbling-block before people.
​

People lose their way all the time. Am not sure that just the fact some get led astray or are just over zealous/obsessive about a particular thing makes the entire practice wrong. Am trying to think of Protestant examples.

Demonstrating one’s faith might be one. We are not to hide our candle…etc. Not far from where we used to live is a large community of people who believe demonstrating their faith requires them to dance in Church with poisonous snakes and even drink poison. Several people die every year and local authorities had to create ordinances to restrict the minimum age of such practices. Now if I were to use the same logic being applied to Catholics abusing prayer to Saints, I could conclude that demonstrating one’s faith is wrong because it leads some people to do stupid things. All I can say is that I try hard not to do that as do most folks I know.

I have posted many of these prayers on this site months ago... you can't escape what they say...just do a little research yourself...type in prayers to Mary and the Saints, or prayers to Angels, and see what comes up...I was shocked, because Catholic friends were always assuring me they only honour or venerate Mary, Angels and the Saints...but many many of these sites go waaaay past that...please just look and see if what I am saying is true...be objective.
​

Am not trying to "escape". I agree some are offensive.Those sites are not something I do and not something the Church encourages me to do. Neither are the chain ads with prayers in the local papers.

Have you ever seen ANY of those websites linked off of a Parish website, or the Diocese’s or the Vatican’s? I have not. I have seen warnings on those Parish and Diocese’s websites, politely given to the faithful to avoid participating in some things. So am not sure what you think the point being made here is that there are these websites out there. Ok, so what?

Does Westboro Baptist misguided efforts to stand for their faith mean all Baptist are wrong in standing for their faith?
How silly.

People are people, we are all sinners and some people go to extremes. Am not one of those and strongly suspect most Catholics are not. I have never formally met one that is though, I have heard stories and in the one case already mentioned saw some things that I disagreed strongly with.

So while I know it is out there, it does not mean everyone or even a large number of Catholics are being led astray by saying Hail Mary’s (associated with the abuse I witnessed).

There are many what you call Protestant practices that I would equally challenge and object to....I find that much of the Body in these days is rife with peculiar beliefs, apathy and grumblings, and is a very poor witness to the Lost...and whether I like it or not, I am part of this Body, but I thank G-d that we can look to Jesus to change us, and conform us to His image. I believe there is a time of serious purging coming, where the Spirit is calling us to HOLINESS.

Well am glad you can see that there is abuse everywhere and have not abandoned the Body because of it.

Well its not viable because it isn't taught or practiced anywhere in the pages of the Bible.
​

Just how do you propose a departed Believer aids us...where is your evidence?
​

What is not in the Bible? Praying to Heaven Hosts other than God is in the Bible. Edict for the Body to pray for one another is in the Bible. Where is it in the Bible that the duty to pray for one another ends with death? What would be wrong about someone in Heaven, angel or human, praying for us?
Am not sure how much would be required beyond knowing the Saints ar e more alive than we are now and are still a part of the same Body that is told to pray for one another. We have to ask someone in order to get them to pray for us – sooooooo - we pray to Saints and they pray for us.

Where did the angels and humans in John’s Revelation get our prayers they are offering up to God? Did God drop some prayers on the ground? Did they find or steal or borrow prayers directed at God?

 

[DrBubbaLove]

I think this is called 'clutching at straws'.
Scripture assures us G-d hears our prayers...it never teaches or assures us that departed souls hear our prayers, or can respond to them...so any prayers to them cannot be based on faith, only theological assumption.
It is vital when we pray to pray in faith, knowing we are touching G-ds heart...otherwise it is an exercise in futility...The Bible teaches us to pray 'confidently'

1John 5:14 This is the confidence which we have before Him, that, if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us.

Hebrews 4:16 ... So let us come boldly to the throne of our gracious God. There we will receive his
mercy, and we will find grace to help us when we need it most. ...
​

I guess I do not see Prayer to Saints as meaning we believe God does not hear us. That seems silly to and also casts the same doubt on asking anyone to pray for us. If we are confident when asking others here to pray for us then am not sure why the same confidence cannot be had, (and perhaps more because of who the Saints are) that God hears not only our prayers but the prayers of all the others praying for us.

If the Saints cannot hear us then I do not understand how the Saints in John’s vision got those prayers they were offering up to God. If it is true that the prayer of righteous man availeth much then I could of no better group of people praying for me than the Saints in Heaven.

Feel pretty tough at this age already.

Have a good night - it is a nice one here - enjoy.
​

 

[Zeek]

Hi Zazal
I do not think it is credible to believe one can have a book circulating as popular reading among Christians that is displaying a practice which is claimed to be boarding on evil or outright wickedness without a single Apostle or their disciples or early Fathers objecting.
I think it is pretty well accepted that it was written early in the middle of the 1st century, which is well before the last Apostles dies. The quotes by early Fathers late 1st and early second also establish it as a well circulated reading by the end of the first century.

Sorry Bubba...gotta be quick as I have spread myself thinly and have much to do, but do not want you to think I am ignoring you.

What you have written above is not factually true, as the Shepherd of Hermas was supposed to have been written 100 years later than you claim in the middle of the 2nd Century...here is a quote from 'early christian writings'.

The Muratorian canon, a list of canonical books from about the 3rd century, says Hermas was written by the brother of Pius, Bishop of Rome, about 140-154. Despite much speculation, the author remains unknown. It was written in Rome and involves the Roman church.

However the OT does have Scriptures (Psalms for example) that are given in the form of Prayer and include appeals to hosts in Heaven. We would call that an example of praying to a being other than God. So clearly the idea we are ONLY to pray to God cannot be correct.

If you could kindly produce the Scriptures in Psalms, then perhaps we could discuss exactly what they are saying, and if they really do give us a mandate to pray to the Heavenly Host.

I would suggest we are a Church full of sinners and one cannot judge the lot or practices of the lot by what a few bad apples do.

Perhaps you can stick your head around the door about Mary having Children, and check out the web-site Philothei mentions, which contains what I would call 'heinous prayers' to Mary. My experience is that many Catholics and OC Believers actually uphold as valid, some of the practices that you object to.

Again, I can only give you my experience, which has been such practices are not mainstream and where they do exist and have undue popularity I know for a fact the Church asks the faithful to stay away.

See above....

Demonstrating one’s faith might be one. We are not to hide our candle…etc. Not far from where we used to live is a large community of people who believe demonstrating their faith requires them to dance in Church with poisonous snakes and even drink poison. Several people die every year and local authorities had to create ordinances to restrict the minimum age of such practices. Now if I were to use the same logic being applied to Catholics abusing prayer to Saints, I could conclude that demonstrating one’s faith is wrong because it leads some people to do stupid things. All I can say is that I try hard not to do that as do most folks I know.

Lol...Find me one Protestant type congregation outside of the Apalacian snake-handler cult, that agree with their stupid practices.
But worship of Mary,Saints and Angels is endemic.

Well am glad you can see that there is abuse everywhere and have not abandoned the Body because of it.

We are all part of the Body of Messiah bro...I am just jealous to see some things ditched and other things embraced so that we actually present a united witness to the Truth...and get back to the roots of our faith as demonstrated through Acts of the Apostles.

What is not in the Bible? Praying to Heaven Hosts other than God is in the Bible. Edict for the Body to pray for one another is in the Bible. Where is it in the Bible that the duty to pray for one another ends with death? What would be wrong about someone in Heaven, angel or human, praying for us?

I think you are trying too hard to make things add up, and are presenting the usual arguments every Catholic is familiar with. Whatever continuous unity we have with those that are now with the L-rd, does not give us a mandate to seek their help or guidence...and there is a vast difference between asking a friend to pray for you and praying to an invisible dead Believer....which as I said before, begs the question...what assurance do you have that this is a practice endorsed by G-d and what confidence do you have that your prayers to them will be heard, let alone answered?

Am not sure how much would be required beyond knowing the Saints ar e more alive than we are now and are still a part of the same Body that is told to pray for one another. We have to ask someone in order to get them to pray for us – sooooooo - we pray to Saints and they pray for us.

I could never act on such a flimsy explanation...I just wouldn't have the faith...faith is not blind, but based on the promises of YHWH.

Where did the angels and humans in John’s Revelation get our prayers they are offering up to God? Did God drop some prayers on the ground? Did they find or steal or borrow prayers directed at God?

...If you actually look at the references in Revelation, you cannot deduce that the angels and departed Saints were prayed to...only that they presented the prayers offered to G-d as incense before His throne.

Rev 5:8When He had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

Rev 8: 3Another angel came and stood at the altar, holding a golden censer; and much incense was given to him, so that he might add it to the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar which was before the throne. 4And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, went up before God out of the angel’s hand. 5Then the angel took the censer and filled it with the fire of the altar, and threw it to the earth; and there followed peals of thunder and sounds and flashes of lightning and an earthquake.

The very method and structure for our prayer-life was given via the L-rds prayer...it goes directly to the throne of G-d....not via a courier service made up of various Saints who help G-d out from time to time in case He is too busy, or the request is too petty.