Why the "thousand years" in Revelation 20 does not simply mean "a long time."

[Bible2]

yeshuasavedme said in post 53:

The things have not come, and when they begin they will strike like lightning, with no remedy for those "left behind".

Is the idea of being "left behind" based on Luke 17:26-37 and Matthew 24:37-41? If so, people should realize that those passages refer to what will happen at Jesus' 2nd coming, "when the Son of man is revealed" (Luke 17:30), "the coming of the Son of man" (Matthew 24:37,39), which Jesus had just finished saying won't happen until immediately after the future tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31). Those "taken" at the 2nd coming (Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) will be unsaved people who will be taken to where they will be killed and birds will eat their dead bodies (Luke 17:36-37; Matthew 24:28, cf. Job 39:30b; Revelation 19:21). The Greek word "paralambano" ("taken": Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) can be used to refer to being taken to another place to be killed (John 19:16-18).

Those "left" where they are at the 2nd coming (Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) will include unsaved people who will be forced to come up annually to worship the returned Jesus in Jerusalem during the millennium (Zechariah 14:16-19). These unsaved people will have to be ruled with a rod of iron by Jesus and the bodily resurrected church during the millennium (Revelation 2:26-29, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 20:4-6, Psalms 2, Psalms 66:3, Psalms 72:8-11). And their descendants will be deceived by Satan after the millennium is over into committing the Gog/Magog rebellion (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39).

Before the millennium, at Jesus' 2nd coming, those in the church will neither be "taken" and killed, nor "left" where they are, but will be "gathered together" (raptured) (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) into the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17). The purpose of this rapture meeting will be so that those in the church can be judged by Jesus (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) and married to Jesus (Revelation 19:7) in the sky, before Jesus descends from the sky (the first heaven) with the obedient part of the church to bring the 2nd-coming wrath on the unsaved world (Revelation 19:14 to 20:3).

So the 2nd coming will be like "the days of Noah" (Matthew 24:37) and "the days of Lot" (Luke 17:28,30) in that just as Noah went into the ark before the Flood, and Lot went out from Sodom before it was destroyed, so the church will be raptured into the sky at the 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, Matthew 24:30-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7) before Jesus begins the 2nd-coming wrath (Revelation 19:15 to 20:3, Luke 17:26-30, Matthew 24:37-39).

 

[Bible2]

ebedmelech said in post 56:

In Matthew 28:18 Jesus said:
18 And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

As God the Word, Jesus was the Creator of everything in heaven and earth (Colossians 1:16-18, John 1:1,3). And in the first century AD, he became a flesh and bones human being (John 1:14; 2 John 1:7), so that he could die on the Cross for our sins and rise from the dead on the 3rd day (Hebrews 2:16-17; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4), and become our eternally-human high priest/mediator (Hebrews 7:24-26; 1 Timothy 2:5).

After his resurrection into immortality in his fully-human flesh and bones body (Luke 24:39), Jesus the man was given ultimate spiritual authority over heaven and earth (Matthew 28:18). He ascended bodily into heaven (Acts 1:9-10), and is now in heaven ruling spiritually over everything (1 Peter 3:22, Ephesians 1:20-23, Colossians 2:10,15, Philippians 2:9).

But he won't take ultimate, de facto, physical authority over the earth until his 2nd coming, when, still as a flesh and bones human being (Zechariah 13:6, Zechariah 12:10-14), he will descend bodily from heaven (Revelation 19:11-21, Zechariah 14:3-4, Acts 1:11-12) to physically reign on the earth (Psalms 72:8-11, Zechariah 14:9-21) with a rod of iron with the bodily resurrected church for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 2, Psalms 66:3-4, Micah 4:1-4, Luke 1:32, Isaiah 9:6-7).

After his 1,000-year reign and subsequent events are over (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39), Jesus will resurrect and judge everyone who wasn't resurrected at his 2nd coming (Revelation 20:11-15). Everyone who has ever lived will have to bow down before him and admit that he is Lord of everything (Philippians 2:10-11, Acts 10:36).

*******

ebedmelech said in post 64:

*Ephesians 1:18-23:
18 I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints,
19 and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might
20 which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places,
21 far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come.
22 And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church,
23 which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.

Ephesians 1:22's original Greek can be read as meaning that all things will have been put under Christ's feet by the time of the age to come (i.e. the new earth) in Ephesians 1:21c. For Ephesians 1:22a, like 1 Corinthians 15:27a, is simply a quotation from Psalms 8:6b, which was written in the past tense some thousand years before Christ's first coming. None of the verses mean that God the Father has already (today) put all things under Christ's feet physically, as he will do over the future time from Revelation 19:11 to Revelation 20:15. For "now we see not yet all things put under him" (Hebrews 2:8c), and Paul elsewhere refers to the future time "when all things shall be subdued unto him" (1 Corinthians 15:28), in the sense of physically subdued.

ebedmelech said in post 64:

Jerusalem is typified as Babylon, that's why she is called "Mystery Babylon, Mother of Harlots"...how many times are the prophets calling Israel/Jerusalem a harlot?

While the corrupt aspects of Jerusalem are included in what Revelation's symbolic "Babylon" (Revelation chapters 17-18) represents, it represents much more than just the corrupt aspects of Jerusalem. For Jerusalem just by itself doesn't reign over the kings of the earth (Revelation 17:18). Nor is Jerusalem the only place where people buy merchandise (Revelation 18:11). Nor has Jerusalem just by itself corrupted the entire world (Revelation 18:3). Nor has Jerusalem been continuously supported by the empires of fallen man throughout history (Revelation 17:9-10). Instead, Revelation's symbolic "Babylon" represents all of mankind's corrupt political (Revelation 17:18), economic (Revelation 18:11), and religious (Revelation 18:24) systems throughout the earth (Revelation 18:3), and throughout history (Revelation 17:9-10).

In Revelation 11:8, the great city is Jerusalem, where Jesus was crucified. But in Revelation 21:10, the great city is New Jerusalem, which is now in heaven. And in Revelation 14:8, Revelation 17:18, and Revelation 18:10-21, the great city is the symbolic harlot/city of Babylon. When it is destroyed, it will be found no more at all (Revelation 18:21), forever (Revelation 19:3), unlike Jerusalem, which was found again after its only-temporary destruction in 70 AD.

The 10 kings of the Antichrist's empire will destroy with fire what Revelation's "Babylon" represents (Revelation 17:16-17) when they destroy the cities of the earth (Revelation 16:19), probably with nukes (and probably with Fission-Fusion-Fission, "FFF", or "666", nukes, "F" representing the number six in English gematria), at the time of the 7th vial (Revelation 16:17,19), which will be the final event (Revelation 16:17) of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, right before Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:2 to 20:6, Matthew 24:29-31). They could do this under the direction of Lucifer/Satan (Isaiah 14:17,12), who could want to leave only a literal "scorched earth" for Jesus to return to.

Near the very end of the future tribulation, Lucifer (employing the ancient lies of Gnosticism) could say to the Antichrist and his 10 kings something like: "Our great battle against the evil, tyrant god YHWH is about to begin [Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19], a battle which we will win, and so we will be able to escape YHWH's prison house, this material universe, and return to the wholly-spiritual Pleroma [i.e. Heaven]. So let us now destroy this prison cell, this foul planet, and let us, as it were, burn up all the gewgaws which we have hung upon our cell walls. Let us burn up all our great cities, all our magnificent systems. Let us break all our chains of attachment to this vile physical realm, that we might more freely ascend back to our rightful place in the Pleroma [Isaiah 14:13-14]".

Of course this will be a lie. For at his 2nd coming, Jesus (who is YHWH: John 10:30, Zechariah 14:3-4) will completely defeat the world's armies, arrayed against YHWH (Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19-21). And Jesus will have Lucifer bound in the bottomless pit during the subsequent 1,000 years (Revelation 20:1-6, Isaiah 14:15). And Jesus will restore ruined parts of the earth and make them like the Garden of Eden (Ezekiel 36:35, Isaiah 51:3). And after the 1,000 years and subsequent events are over (Revelation 20:7-15), God will create a new heaven (a new first heaven, a new sky/atmosphere for the earth) and a new earth (a new surface for the earth) (Revelation 21:1). And then God will descend from the 3rd heaven in the literal city of New Jerusalem to live with saved humanity on the new earth (Revelation 21:2-4).

ebedmelech said in post 64:

Jerusalem is typified as Babylon, that's why she is called "Mystery Babylon, Mother of Harlots"...how many times are the prophets calling Israel/Jerusalem a harlot?

Scriptures like Ezekiel 16 calling Jerusalem a harlot doesn't require that Jerusalem alone must be the entirety of what the symbolic harlot "Babylon" in Revelation chapters 17-18 represents, just as, for example, Nahum 3:4 doesn't require that Nineveh alone (Nahum 1:1) is the entirety of Revelation's "Babylon". Similarly, Isaiah 23:15-16 doesn't require that Tyre alone is the entirety of Revelation's "Babylon". And Ezekiel 23:4-8,44 doesn't require that Samaria alone is the entirety of Revelation's "Babylon". And Jeremiah 3:6-7 and Hosea 4:15 don't require that the northern kingdom of Israel alone is the entirety of Revelation's "Babylon". And Ezekiel 20:30 and Ezekiel 43:7 don't require that the house of Israel alone is the entirety of Revelation's "Babylon". And Hosea 5:3 and Hosea 6:10 don't require that Ephraim alone is the entirety of Revelation's "Babylon". Instead, the corrupt aspects of all of these, and of all other cities and nations throughout the earth and throughout history, can be included as only parts of what Revelation's "Babylon" represents.

ebedmelech said in post 64:

Notice it says "when the thousand years are ended"...this is not a literal period of time.

Amillennialism mistakenly claims that the "thousand" in Revelation 20:4-6 can't be literal, but must be only symbolic of fullness/completion, like in Psalms 50:10. But in the Bible, "thousand" can be literal (e.g. Numbers 31:4-6, Numbers 35:4, Judges 20:10; 2 Kings 15:19; 1 Chronicles 19:6, Song of Songs 8:11, Revelation 20:2-7).

Also, amillennialism ends up (inadvertently) logically requiring the error of full preterism (2 Timothy 2:18). For claiming that the church's resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6 is already present requires that Jesus' 2nd coming has already happened. For the church's resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6 won't happen until the 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16). Also, amillennialism ends up (inadvertently) logically requiring the error of partial preterism. For claiming that the resurrection of those beheaded by the Antichrist during the future tribulation and their subsequent reigning on the earth with the returned Jesus for the full 1,000 years of the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29) is already present, requires that the Antichrist's literal, 3.5-year worldwide reign during the tribulation (Revelation 13:4-18) has already happened. Also, amillennialism is mistaken because it requires that the devil is currently bound in the bottomless pit (Revelation 20:1-6), when in fact he is currently walking around on the earth seeking whom he may devour (1 Peter 5:8), and won't be bound until the 2nd coming (Revelation 19:19 to 20:3).

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Is the idea of being "left behind" based on Luke 17:26-37 and Matthew 24:37-41? If so, people should realize that those passages refer to what will happen at Jesus' 2nd coming, "when the Son of man is revealed" (Luke 17:30), "the coming of the Son of man" (Matthew 24:37,39), which Jesus had just finished saying won't happen until immediately after the future tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31). Those "taken" at the 2nd coming (Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) will be unsaved people who will be taken to where they will be killed and birds will eat their dead bodies (Luke 17:36-37; Matthew 24:28, cf. Job 39:30b; Revelation 19:21). The Greek word "paralambano" ("taken": Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) can be used to refer to being taken to another place to be killed (John 19:16-18).

Those "left" where they are at the 2nd coming (Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) will include unsaved people who will be forced to come up annually to worship the returned Jesus in Jerusalem during the millennium (Zechariah 14:16-19). These unsaved people will have to be ruled with a rod of iron by Jesus and the bodily resurrected church during the millennium (Revelation 2:26-29, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 20:4-6, Psalms 2, Psalms 66:3, Psalms 72:8-11). And their descendants will be deceived by Satan after the millennium is over into committing the Gog/Magog rebellion (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39).

Before the millennium, at Jesus' 2nd coming, those in the church will neither be "taken" and killed, nor "left" where they are, but will be "gathered together" (raptured) (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) into the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17). The purpose of this rapture meeting will be so that those in the church can be judged by Jesus (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) and married to Jesus (Revelation 19:7) in the sky, before Jesus descends from the sky (the first heaven) with the obedient part of the church to bring the 2nd-coming wrath on the unsaved world (Revelation 19:14 to 20:3).

So the 2nd coming will be like "the days of Noah" (Matthew 24:37) and "the days of Lot" (Luke 17:28,30) in that just as Noah went into the ark before the Flood, and Lot went out from Sodom before it was destroyed, so the church will be raptured into the sky at the 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, Matthew 24:30-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7) before Jesus begins the 2nd-coming wrath (Revelation 19:15 to 20:3, Luke 17:26-30, Matthew 24:37-39).

You are mixing up the coming in the heavens only, of Messiah, and His bringing with Him the souls whose bodies He resurrects to be united with their souls and elementally changing the bodies of the living in Christ who rise at the second trump of the call to assemble before His temple door, as the living oracle of the two trumpets teach in Numbers 10:1-7, with the return of Him to the earth after the great tribulation, with His armies of heaven, prepared to cleanse the earth of all things that offend and to set up His kingdom of God on earth for the millennium.

After the trumpets blast twice to call the entire assembly of YHWH -the dead in Christ and the living in Christ- to come stand before His temple doors in heaven, HE meets them there, at the doors and tells them to come in and hide until the indignation be past....Isaiah 26:19-21

which will sound together twice, to call the assembly of the entire congregation of YHWH to assemble before His temple door to hear His instruction.

And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

Num 10:2
Make thee two trumpets of silver; of a whole piece shalt thou make them: that thou mayest use them for the calling of the assembly, and for the journeying of the camps.

Num 10:3
And when they shall blow with them, all the assembly shall assemble themselves to thee at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.

Num 10:4
And if they blow but with one trumpet, then the princes, which are heads of the thousands of Israel, shall gather themselves unto thee.

Isa 26:19-21 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.

For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

 

[ebedmelech]

It always was and always will be, what's that got to do with the Parosia?

That depends on what you're calling "the parousia".

And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen. (Matthew 28:18-20)

So when is the 'end of the world' exactly because I was under the distinct impression it was at the end of the age when when he returns in power and glory.

The end is when Jesus judges the world in righteousness.

having the eyes of your hearts enlightened, that you may know what is the hope to which he has called you, what are the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and what is the immeasurable greatness of his power toward us who believe, according to the working of his great might that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, (Ephesians 1:18-23)​

Yes, Christ is seated at the right hand of the Father, the same place he occupied before the foundation of the world. Still waiting for the part where this tells us that the Parosia has already happened.

Really? Based on what? Jesus said all power was given to Him...so now, who do you think gave it?

Even when his lifeless body was in the tomb, his reign did not end. Christ does not rule this world and it's not because he lacks the authority or the power.

Once again...show Christ reigning before Matthew 28:18. Why would He say all power was GIVEN to Him, if Had it already?

“Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.” (Acts 1:8)​

Now unless Christ returned without my knowing it we are still waiting for that time when:

Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the wine press of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. (Rev. 19:15)​

There are too many passages that say that is definitely not the case right now.

That's right, which is why I'm not saying Christ as returned to judge the world.

No, it's not just Jerusalem, it's not even identified as Jerusalem and Jerusalem in the Tribulation is described as:

Their bodies will lie in the public square of the great city--which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt--where also their Lord was crucified. (Rev. 11:8)​

To this day Jerusalem is being trampled under foot by the Gentiles. To date there have been no such prophets speaking in Jerusalem for three and a half years, died and then resurrected and ascended into heaven bodily.

Where did you learn hermeneutics?[quote[
I'm glad it's not where you learned yours. Ever read Galatians 4::12-31?

You know, repeating that erroneous statement statement when both of us know Christ has not returned in power and glory isn't the same thing as an argument. You pretty much came out and admitted Christ has not returned in the opening of your response and proceeded to beg the question of proof to the contrary.

Talk to God about it then. It is He who uses 1000 symbolically, not me. You simply have been taught to ignore it.

We have guys just like you in the Origins Theology forum. No matter how many New Testament dictionaries, concordances and lexicons say otherwise, you'll argue that 'day' does not mean 'day' and a 'thousand years' does not mean a 'thousand years'. I don't know why but it's not because that's what the Scriptures teach and certainly not because that's what they say.

I say again, when did the Parosia happen exactly?

Have a nice day
Mark

I'm not in "Origins Theology" though. This is "Eschatology"...so I don't worry about what "those guys say". Each person will receive their praise from God of how they heeded and read His word. So we'll know where we all stand...when we stand before Him. Let's see how that works out...

 

[mark kennedy]

That depends on what you're calling "the parousia".

Your confused about the doctrine of the Parousia? I can help you with that:

Parousia (Strong's G3952 παρουσί&#945 - The future visible return from heaven of Jesus, to raise the dead, hold the last judgment, and set up formally and gloriously the kingdom of God

And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming (parousia), and of the end of the world? (Mat 24:3)

For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming (parousia) of the Son of man be. (Mat 24:27)

But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming (parousia) of the Son of man be. (Mat 24:37)

And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming (parousia) of the Son of man be. (Mat 24:39)​

It is the normal Greek word for the 'Coming' or 'Appearing' of Christ at the end of the age, aka second advent.

See also:

1 Th 4:15, 2 Pe 1:16, 2 Pe 3:12, Php 1:26, 2 Th 2:1, 2 Th 2:8, Jam 5:7, 2 Pe 3:4, 1 Cor 15:23, 1 Cor 16:17, 2 Cor 7:6, 2 Cor 7:7, 2 Cor 10:10, Php 2:12, 1 Th 2:19, 1 Th 3:13, 1 Th 5:23, 2 Th 2:9, Jam 5:8, 1 Jo 2:28, Heb 13:5​

The end is when Jesus judges the world in righteousness.

I'm with you so far.

Really? Based on what? Jesus said all power was given to Him...so now, who do you think gave it?

From the Father, and as the Son of God he always had it.

Once again...show Christ reigning before Matthew 28:18. Why would He say all power was GIVEN to Him, if Had it already?

You really just asked that question?

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God...And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. (John 1:1, 14)

No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven--the Son of Man. (John 3:13)

Then what if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! (John 6:62)​

It's called the Incarnation, that's how.

That's right, which is why I'm not saying Christ as returned to judge the world.

Good

No, it's not just Jerusalem, it's not even identified as Jerusalem and Jerusalem in the Tribulation is described as:

Their bodies will lie in the public square of the great city--which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt--where also their Lord was crucified. (Rev. 11:8)​

To this day Jerusalem is being trampled under foot by the Gentiles. To date there have been no such prophets speaking in Jerusalem for three and a half years, died and then resurrected and ascended into heaven bodily.

Where did you learn hermeneutics?

I'm glad it's not where you learned yours. Ever read Galatians 4::12-31?

Sure, I'm familiar with Paul's letter to the Galatians:

Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. (Gal. 4:28, 29)​

What's your point?

Talk to God about it then. It is He who uses 1000 symbolically, not me. You simply have been taught to ignore it.

I have received no such teaching. I'm well aware of how it's used both literally and figuratively and you're the one who can't tell the two uses apart.

I'm not in "Origins Theology" though. This is "Eschatology"...so I don't worry about what "those guys say". Each person will receive their praise from God of how they heeded and read His word. So we'll know where we all stand...when we stand before Him. Let's see how that works out...

Modernism is just as rampant here as it is there, that's what I was saying. You have gotten some bad information, you have learned and you practice poor hermeneutics, which is why your argument is flawed and has failed.

But ok, let's see how this works out.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[Biblewriter]

So, was the "kingdom" of the O.T. saints any different from the "kingdom of God" Jesus said was "at hand?"

Yes. It was radically different. It was to be in "the land of Israel," with its mountains, hills. rivers, and valleys (Ezekiel 36.) It was to have the borders precisely defined in Ezekiel 47, with the land divided as in Ezekiel 48.
It was to be be after the Lord came "with fire And with His chariots, like a whirlwind.) And it was to begin with the Lord himself meeting them at the border as they return, purging out all the rebels from their midst (Ezekiel 20.)

These are only a very few of the marked differences between what was prophesied in the Old Testament and what came about when Jesus came the first time.

 

[ebedmelech]

Your confused about the doctrine of the Parousia? I can help you with that:

Parousia (Strong's G3952 παρουσί&#945 - The future visible return from heaven of Jesus, to raise the dead, hold the last judgment, and set up formally and gloriously the kingdom of God

And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming (parousia), and of the end of the world? (Mat 24:3)

For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming (parousia) of the Son of man be. (Mat 24:27)

But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming (parousia) of the Son of man be. (Mat 24:37)

And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming (parousia) of the Son of man be. (Mat 24:39)​

It is the normal Greek word for the 'Coming' or 'Appearing' of Christ at the end of the age, aka second advent.

See also:

1 Th 4:15, 2 Pe 1:16, 2 Pe 3:12, Php 1:26, 2 Th 2:1, 2 Th 2:8, Jam 5:7, 2 Pe 3:4, 1 Cor 15:23, 1 Cor 16:17, 2 Cor 7:6, 2 Cor 7:7, 2 Cor 10:10, Php 2:12, 1 Th 2:19, 1 Th 3:13, 1 Th 5:23, 2 Th 2:9, Jam 5:8, 1 Jo 2:28, Heb 13:5​

Now go read my statement again. I said it depends on what YOU mean by parousia. Not a word about whether I understood "the parousia".

There are those who refuse to believe 70 AD was "a parousia"...it just isn't the final parousia where Christ judges the world.

I'm with you so far.

That's a good thing.

From the Father, and as the Son of God he always had it.

No. That would not be correct. Jesus submitted Himself to the Father...and He made it very clear the Father was greater than He was...so you have a problem there. Have you read John 5 carefully?

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God...And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. (John 1:1, 14)

No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven--the Son of Man. (John 3:13)

Then what if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! (John 6:62)​

It's called the Incarnation, that's how.{/quote]
There's nothing there saying Jesus is anything but equal with God. Jesus said it pretty clear in John 14:28:
28 You heard that I said to you, ‘I go away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced because I go to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

This is what Philippians 2:1-11 is making clear, Jesus submitted Himself to the Father!

Sure, I'm familiar with Paul's letter to the Galatians:

Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. (Gal. 4:28, 29)​

What's your point?

Did you miss "the Jerusalem above is free, she is our mother"? It is not now, nor will it ever be about earthly Jerusalem!

I have received no such teaching. I'm well aware of how it's used both literally and figuratively and you're the one who can't tell the two uses apart.

That may be according to you...but you are not who I'm diligent to study the scriptures for...that would be our Lord. So I'll stand on what I believe the scriptures teach.

Modernism is just as rampant here as it is there, that's what I was saying. You have gotten some bad information, you have learned and practice poor hermeneutics which is why your argument is flawed.

Amillennialism is not modernism...it's as old as the church itself!

But ok, let's see how this works out.

Grace and peace,
Mark

Grace and peace to you also.

 

[ebedmelech]

As God the Word, Jesus was the Creator of everything in heaven and earth (Colossians 1:16-18, John 1:1,3). And in the first century AD, he became a flesh and bones human being (John 1:14; 2 John 1:7), so that he could die on the Cross for our sins and rise from the dead on the 3rd day (Hebrews 2:16-17; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4), and become our eternally-human high priest/mediator (Hebrews 7:24-26; 1 Timothy 2:5).

After his resurrection into immortality in his fully-human flesh and bones body (Luke 24:39), Jesus the man was given ultimate spiritual authority over heaven and earth (Matthew 28:18). He ascended bodily into heaven (Acts 1:9-10), and is now in heaven ruling spiritually over everything (1 Peter 3:22, Ephesians 1:20-23, Colossians 2:10,15, Philippians 2:9).

But he won't take ultimate, de facto, physical authority over the earth until his 2nd coming, when, still as a flesh and bones human being (Zechariah 13:6, Zechariah 12:10-14), he will descend bodily from heaven (Revelation 19:11-21, Zechariah 14:3-4, Acts 1:11-12) to physically reign on the earth (Psalms 72:8-11, Zechariah 14:9-21) with a rod of iron with the bodily resurrected church for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 2, Psalms 66:3-4, Micah 4:1-4, Luke 1:32, Isaiah 9:6-7).

After his 1,000-year reign and subsequent events are over (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39), Jesus will resurrect and judge everyone who wasn't resurrected at his 2nd coming (Revelation 20:11-15). Everyone who has ever lived will have to bow down before him and admit that he is Lord of everything (Philippians 2:10-11, Acts 10:36).

*******



Ephesians 1:22's original Greek can be read as meaning that all things will have been put under Christ's feet by the time of the age to come (i.e. the new earth) in Ephesians 1:21c. For Ephesians 1:22a, like 1 Corinthians 15:27a, is simply a quotation from Psalms 8:6b, which was written in the past tense some thousand years before Christ's first coming. None of the verses mean that God the Father has already (today) put all things under Christ's feet physically, as he will do over the future time from Revelation 19:11 to Revelation 20:15. For "now we see not yet all things put under him" (Hebrews 2:8c), and Paul elsewhere refers to the future time "when all things shall be subdued unto him" (1 Corinthians 15:28), in the sense of physically subdued.



While the corrupt aspects of Jerusalem are included in what Revelation's symbolic "Babylon" (Revelation chapters 17-18) represents, it represents much more than just the corrupt aspects of Jerusalem. For Jerusalem just by itself doesn't reign over the kings of the earth (Revelation 17:18). Nor is Jerusalem the only place where people buy merchandise (Revelation 18:11). Nor has Jerusalem just by itself corrupted the entire world (Revelation 18:3). Nor has Jerusalem been continuously supported by the empires of fallen man throughout history (Revelation 17:9-10). Instead, Revelation's symbolic "Babylon" represents all of mankind's corrupt political (Revelation 17:18), economic (Revelation 18:11), and religious (Revelation 18:24) systems throughout the earth (Revelation 18:3), and throughout history (Revelation 17:9-10).

In Revelation 11:8, the great city is Jerusalem, where Jesus was crucified. But in Revelation 21:10, the great city is New Jerusalem, which is now in heaven. And in Revelation 14:8, Revelation 17:18, and Revelation 18:10-21, the great city is the symbolic harlot/city of Babylon. When it is destroyed, it will be found no more at all (Revelation 18:21), forever (Revelation 19:3), unlike Jerusalem, which was found again after its only-temporary destruction in 70 AD.

The 10 kings of the Antichrist's empire will destroy with fire what Revelation's "Babylon" represents (Revelation 17:16-17) when they destroy the cities of the earth (Revelation 16:19), probably with nukes (and probably with Fission-Fusion-Fission, "FFF", or "666", nukes, "F" representing the number six in English gematria), at the time of the 7th vial (Revelation 16:17,19), which will be the final event (Revelation 16:17) of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, right before Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:2 to 20:6, Matthew 24:29-31). They could do this under the direction of Lucifer/Satan (Isaiah 14:17,12), who could want to leave only a literal "scorched earth" for Jesus to return to.

Near the very end of the future tribulation, Lucifer (employing the ancient lies of Gnosticism) could say to the Antichrist and his 10 kings something like: "Our great battle against the evil, tyrant god YHWH is about to begin [Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19], a battle which we will win, and so we will be able to escape YHWH's prison house, this material universe, and return to the wholly-spiritual Pleroma [i.e. Heaven]. So let us now destroy this prison cell, this foul planet, and let us, as it were, burn up all the gewgaws which we have hung upon our cell walls. Let us burn up all our great cities, all our magnificent systems. Let us break all our chains of attachment to this vile physical realm, that we might more freely ascend back to our rightful place in the Pleroma [Isaiah 14:13-14]".

Of course this will be a lie. For at his 2nd coming, Jesus (who is YHWH: John 10:30, Zechariah 14:3-4) will completely defeat the world's armies, arrayed against YHWH (Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19-21). And Jesus will have Lucifer bound in the bottomless pit during the subsequent 1,000 years (Revelation 20:1-6, Isaiah 14:15). And Jesus will restore ruined parts of the earth and make them like the Garden of Eden (Ezekiel 36:35, Isaiah 51:3). And after the 1,000 years and subsequent events are over (Revelation 20:7-15), God will create a new heaven (a new first heaven, a new sky/atmosphere for the earth) and a new earth (a new surface for the earth) (Revelation 21:1). And then God will descend from the 3rd heaven in the literal city of New Jerusalem to live with saved humanity on the new earth (Revelation 21:2-4).



Scriptures like Ezekiel 16 calling Jerusalem a harlot doesn't require that Jerusalem alone must be the entirety of what the symbolic harlot "Babylon" in Revelation chapters 17-18 represents, just as, for example, Nahum 3:4 doesn't require that Nineveh alone (Nahum 1:1) is the entirety of Revelation's "Babylon". Similarly, Isaiah 23:15-16 doesn't require that Tyre alone is the entirety of Revelation's "Babylon". And Ezekiel 23:4-8,44 doesn't require that Samaria alone is the entirety of Revelation's "Babylon". And Jeremiah 3:6-7 and Hosea 4:15 don't require that the northern kingdom of Israel alone is the entirety of Revelation's "Babylon". And Ezekiel 20:30 and Ezekiel 43:7 don't require that the house of Israel alone is the entirety of Revelation's "Babylon". And Hosea 5:3 and Hosea 6:10 don't require that Ephraim alone is the entirety of Revelation's "Babylon". Instead, the corrupt aspects of all of these, and of all other cities and nations throughout the earth and throughout history, can be included as only parts of what Revelation's "Babylon" represents.



Amillennialism mistakenly claims that the "thousand" in Revelation 20:4-6 can't be literal, but must be only symbolic of fullness/completion, like in Psalms 50:10. But in the Bible, "thousand" can be literal (e.g. Numbers 31:4-6, Numbers 35:4, Judges 20:10; 2 Kings 15:19; 1 Chronicles 19:6, Song of Songs 8:11, Revelation 20:2-7).

Also, amillennialism ends up (inadvertently) logically requiring the error of full preterism (2 Timothy 2:18). For claiming that the church's resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6 is already present requires that Jesus' 2nd coming has already happened. For the church's resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6 won't happen until the 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16). Also, amillennialism ends up (inadvertently) logically requiring the error of partial preterism. For claiming that the resurrection of those beheaded by the Antichrist during the future tribulation and their subsequent reigning on the earth with the returned Jesus for the full 1,000 years of the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29) is already present, requires that the Antichrist's literal, 3.5-year worldwide reign during the tribulation (Revelation 13:4-18) has already happened. Also, amillennialism is mistaken because it requires that the devil is currently bound in the bottomless pit (Revelation 20:1-6), when in fact he is currently walking around on the earth seeking whom he may devour (1 Peter 5:8), and won't be bound until the 2nd coming (Revelation 19:19 to 20:3).

These are your typical responses Bible2. I've been over this with you before.

One thing's for sure...we can't both be right..but we can both be wrong. SO let's see how it goes.

 

[Bible2]

yeshuasavedme said in post 71:

You are mixing up the coming in the heavens only, of Messiah, and His bringing with Him the souls whose bodies He resurrects to be united with their souls and elementally changing the bodies of the living in Christ who rise at the second trump of the call to assemble before His temple door, as the living oracle of the two trumpets teach in Numbers 10:1-7, with the return of Him to the earth after the great tribulation, with His armies of heaven, prepared to cleanse the earth of all things that offend and to set up His kingdom of God on earth for the millennium.

Regarding "His bringing with Him the souls whose bodies He resurrects", 1 Thessalonians 3:13 and 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 indeed show that at Jesus' 2nd coming, the souls of all obedient dead believers of all times will be brought down from the 3rd heaven with Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:14-15), and their souls will descend to the earth and their bodies will resurrect/rise from their graves (1 Thessalonians 4:16). Then they and all believers who will survive the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 on the earth (those who will still be "alive and remain") will be raptured up high into the air above the places all around the globe where they will be (1 Thessalonians 4:17a), and then they will be gathered together from the sky (the first heaven) all around the globe (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) to the one place in the sky where the returned Jesus will be (1 Thessalonians 4:17b), which will be right above Jerusalem, before he sets his feet on the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:4-5, Acts 1:11-12).

It's because of this 2nd-coming rapture into the sky, and then the gathering to where in the sky Jesus will be (and then the marriage of the obedient part of the church there to Jesus: Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), that the obedient part of the church will already be with Jesus when he subsequently descends from the sky (the first heaven) to the earth (Revelation 19:14, Revelation 17:14, Zechariah 14:5c,4).

yeshuasavedme said in post 71:

You are mixing up the coming in the heavens only, of Messiah, and His bringing with Him the souls whose bodies He resurrects to be united with their souls and elementally changing the bodies of the living in Christ who rise at the second trump of the call to assemble before His temple door, as the living oracle of the two trumpets teach in Numbers 10:1-7, with the return of Him to the earth after the great tribulation, with His armies of heaven, prepared to cleanse the earth of all things that offend and to set up His kingdom of God on earth for the millennium.

Regarding Numbers 10:1-7, it's curious that the pre-tribulation rapture view would look to scriptures given to the 12 tribes of Israel in the time of Moses, in order to try to support itself, when at other times it's at such pains to try to claim that the 12 tribes of Israel have nothing to do with the church.

The truth is that all genetic Jews in the church remain members of whichever tribe of Israel they were born into (Romans 11:1, Acts 4:36). And all genetic Gentiles in the church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29), and so have been grafted into its various tribes (cf. Ezekiel 47:21-23). So the entire church is the 12 tribes of Israel (Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). This is necessary, for all those in the church are saved only by the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), and the New Covenant is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22b). John 10:16 refers to the "other sheep" of believers who are Gentiles being brought into "this fold" of Israel, which is the same as the "one fold" of the church (1 Corinthians 12:13, Ephesians 4:4-6, Revelation 21:9,12). A genetic Gentile believer can pray and ask which tribe of Israel he has been grafted into, and he will receive an answer from God, if he asks in faith (cf. Matthew 21:22), without any wavering (cf. James 1:6-7).

Also, all those in the church, no matter whether they're genetic Jews (Acts 22:3) or genetic Gentiles (Romans 16:4b), have become spiritually-circumcised Jews if they have undergone the spiritual circumcision of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus (Romans 2:29, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:11-13).

--

Even though Numbers 10:1-7, like Leviticus 8, was given to the 12 tribes of Israel, and the church is the 12 tribes of Israel, note that nothing requires that Numbers 10:1-7 and Leviticus 8 are prophecies of the church's future, instead of simply commandments of the Old Covenant Mosaic law. And on Jesus' Cross, for both Jews and Gentiles (John 11:51-52), of all times, the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law was abolished (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18), disannulled (Hebrews 7:18), rendered obsolete (Hebrews 8:13, Galatians 3:2-25, Galatians 4:21 to 5:8), taken away and replaced (Hebrews 10:9) by the better hope (Hebrews 7:19), the better covenant (Hebrews 7:22, Hebrews 8:6-12), the 2nd covenant (Hebrews 8:7, Hebrews 10:9), of Jesus' New Covenant law (Galatians 6:2, John 1:17, Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 12:24, Hebrews 9:15), so that the law was changed (Hebrews 7:12).

Also, note that nothing in Numbers 10:1-7 or Leviticus 8 requires, even by type, that the rapture will occur before the tribulation, or that the rapture will take the church any higher than the clouds of the sky (the first heaven), to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).

For, by type, the door of the tabernacle of the congregation in Numbers 10:3 and Leviticus 8:3 is only Christ himself (John 10:7,9), just as Leviticus 8:7-9, by type, refers to only our high priest, which is only Christ himself (Hebrews 6:20). And it will be only at the rapture, which will be only after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), that the trumpet of Numbers 10:3, by type, will sound to gather together the church to Christ himself (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17) where he will be at his 2nd coming, which will be in the clouds of the sky (the first heaven), on his way down to the earth (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, Zechariah 14:4).

Also, Leviticus 8:33,35 can mean, by type, that the church won't depart from the physical presence of the returned Jesus on the earth for 7 literal days, which could be how long the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 will last. And the marriage supper won't have yet begun by the time of Revelation 19, which won't begin until after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (cf. Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). For regarding the church, the marriage supper will be a literal feast in the earthly Jerusalem after the resurrection and marriage of the church at Jesus' 2nd coming (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54). While the church will enjoy a feast "of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined" (Isaiah 25:6), the birds will feast on the corpses of the world's armies defeated at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:17-21).

yeshuasavedme said in post 71:

After the trumpets blast twice to call the entire assembly of YHWH -the dead in Christ and the living in Christ- to come stand before His temple doors in heaven, HE meets them there, at the doors and tells them to come in and hide until the indignation be past....Isaiah 26:19-21

Isaiah 26:20 can start a new idea, a new paragraph, like is indicated in the KJV. And so nothing requires that Isaiah 26:20-21 has to happen after Isaiah 26:19. Instead, Isaiah 26:20-21 can be addressing those in the church who will still be alive on the earth at the time of the 7 vials of God's wrath (Revelation 16), the final stage of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. These believers will still be waiting for Jesus' coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). And Isaiah 26:20 can refer to them going into protective chambers which they will have prepared for themselves on the earth, just as Noah and his family went into the protective ark which they had prepared for themselves on the earth (Genesis 7:7).

Also, nothing forbids believers from preparing these chambers now, and hiding in them out in the wilderness at some point in our future (Revelation 12:6a), not only during the time of the 7 vials, but also during the just-preceding, literal 3.5 years (Revelation 12:6b) of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18). For his reign will involve the wrath of Satan coming against those in the church who will still be alive on the earth at that time (Revelation 12:17, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

 

[Bible2]

ebedmelech said in post 79:

It is not now, nor will it ever be about earthly Jerusalem!

God still has regard for the land of Israel (Deuteronomy 32:43,49b), and Jerusalem especially (Isaiah 62:6-7, Psalms 122:6). Even during the future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:5-18), Jerusalem will still be considered by God to be the holy city (Revelation 11:2, Luke 21:24), the holy mountain (Daniel 11:45, Daniel 9:16). And after the tribulation, at Jesus' 2nd coming, it will be to the Mount of Olives just east of the walled Old City of Jerusalem that Jesus will descend (Zechariah 14:4-21, Acts 1:11-12). And then Jesus will rule the whole earth from the earthly Jerusalem during the millennium (Micah 4:1-4, Zechariah 14:8-11,16-21, Revelation 20:4-6).

Presently, the kingdom of God is in heaven (2 Timothy 4:18, Hebrews 12:22-24), and is on the earth spiritually within Christians (Romans 14:17, Luke 17:21). In the future, the kingdom will come fully upon the earth as it is in heaven (Matthew 6:10). It will be physically (Luke 22:30, Matthew 19:28) on the earth (Revelation 5:10), first during the future millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11, Zechariah 14:3-21) and then on the new earth (Revelation 21:1-8).

Jesus' kingdom is Israel (John 1:49, John 12:13-15, John 19:19, Luke 22:30). That's why at his 2nd coming, he will sit on the earthly throne of David (Luke 1:32-33, Isaiah 9:7) and restore the kingdom to Israel (Acts 1:6-7, Acts 3:20-21). Jesus is, in his humanity, the son of David (Matthew 1:1, Matthew 21:15-16, Romans 1:3), of the house of David (Luke 1:69). So at Jesus' 2nd coming, he will restore the tabernacle, the house, of David (Isaiah 16:5, Amos 9:11), to its royal glory (2 Samuel 5:12), which it had lost (2 Kings 17:21a). And Jesus will fulfill the prophecy and prayer of 2 Samuel 7:16-29. And he will bring salvation to all the unbelieving elect Jews of the house of David. For they (along with all other unbelieving elect Jews) will come into faith in him when they see him at his 2nd coming (Zechariah 12:10-14, Zechariah 13:1,6, Romans 11:26-31). And so they will all become part of the church at that time, for there are now no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

After Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:3, Zechariah 14:3-5) will occur the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Zechariah 14:8-21), during which, Gentile nations will come to seek the returned Jesus ruling the whole earth (Zechariah 8:22, Zechariah 14:9, Psalms 72:8-11) on the restored throne of David (Isaiah 9:7) in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 2:1-4, Zechariah 14:8-11,16-19). And the bodily resurrected church will reign on the earth with the returned Jesus during the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). For the church is Israel (Romans 11:1,17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10).

ebedmelech said in post 79:

Amillennialism is not modernism...it's as old as the church itself!

Premillennialism was the teaching of the early church (see Papias) subsequent to John the apostle's writing-down of the book of Revelation, based on the clear prophecy of Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, which shows that the millennium will occur after Jesus' 2nd coming. Amillennialism was an error that didn't crop up until later. The scriptural truth of premillennialism was recovered in relatively modern times when a significant part of the church became interested again in eschatology, and believers could search the scriptures for themselves and see that premillennialism is true, as opposed to during the centuries when the amillennial RCC hierarchy kept the scriptures from believers and simply told them what to believe.

It's Jesus who shows the church in Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Revelation 5:10, and Revelation 2:26-29, that after his 2nd coming, he and the bodily resurrected church will reign on the earth for 1,000 years. For the entire book of Revelation is from Jesus to the church (Revelation 1:1, Revelation 22:16). He didn't tell the church about the millennium before Revelation because he waits to tell the church things until it is ready to hear them, and not before (John 16:12). What's sad is that even after he tells the church things, there can be some in the church who still can't hear them, but choose to reject them and replace them with man-made ideas (cf. 2 Timothy 4:3-4).

 

[ebedmelech]

God still has regard for the land of Israel (Deuteronomy 32:43,49b), and Jerusalem especially (Isaiah 62:6-7, Psalms 122:6). Even during the future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:5-18), Jerusalem will still be considered by God to be the holy city (Revelation 11:2, Luke 21:24), the holy mountain (Daniel 11:45, Daniel 9:16). And after the tribulation, at Jesus' 2nd coming, it will be to the Mount of Olives just east of the walled Old City of Jerusalem that Jesus will descend (Zechariah 14:4-21, Acts 1:11-12). And then Jesus will rule the whole earth from the earthly Jerusalem during the millennium (Micah 4:1-4, Zechariah 14:8-11,16-21, Revelation 20:4-6).

Presently, the kingdom of God is in heaven (2 Timothy 4:18, Hebrews 12:22-24), and is on the earth spiritually within Christians (Romans 14:17, Luke 17:21). In the future, the kingdom will come fully upon the earth as it is in heaven (Matthew 6:10). It will be physically (Luke 22:30, Matthew 19:28) on the earth (Revelation 5:10), first during the future millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11, Zechariah 14:3-21) and then on the new earth (Revelation 21:1-8).

Jesus' kingdom is Israel (John 1:49, John 12:13-15, John 19:19, Luke 22:30). That's why at his 2nd coming, he will sit on the earthly throne of David (Luke 1:32-33, Isaiah 9:7) and restore the kingdom to Israel (Acts 1:6-7, Acts 3:20-21). Jesus is, in his humanity, the son of David (Matthew 1:1, Matthew 21:15-16, Romans 1:3), of the house of David (Luke 1:69). So at Jesus' 2nd coming, he will restore the tabernacle, the house, of David (Isaiah 16:5, Amos 9:11), to its royal glory (2 Samuel 5:12), which it had lost (2 Kings 17:21a). And Jesus will fulfill the prophecy and prayer of 2 Samuel 7:16-29. And he will bring salvation to all the unbelieving elect Jews of the house of David. For they (along with all other unbelieving elect Jews) will come into faith in him when they see him at his 2nd coming (Zechariah 12:10-14, Zechariah 13:1,6, Romans 11:26-31). And so they will all become part of the church at that time, for there are now no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

Two things briefly Bible2...with regard to anything about Israel after the abolishing of the Old Covenant You can put your OT references to the side, because Jesus ushered in a New Covenant. Hebrews 8:31:
13 When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.

You do well to heed that. This is the error of the "kingdom of Israel" pushers. They fail to realize Jesus "CAME TO HIS OWN AND THOSE WHO WERE HIS OWN DID NOT RECEIVE HIM!!! Now...work with that!

Secondly, regarding Jesus kingdom is Israel...that's right except when people don't understand the "Israel of God", which Paul tries to tell us is all those of the faith of Abraham. Romans 4, Galatians 3, and Phillipians 3 for starters.

After Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:3, Zechariah 14:3-5) will occur the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Zechariah 14:8-21), during which, Gentile nations will come to seek the returned Jesus ruling the whole earth (Zechariah 8:22, Zechariah 14:9, Psalms 72:8-11) on the restored throne of David (Isaiah 9:7) in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 2:1-4, Zechariah 14:8-11,16-19). And the bodily resurrected church will reign on the earth with the returned Jesus during the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). For the church is Israel (Romans 11:1,17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10).



Premillennialism was the teaching of the early church (see Papias) subsequent to John the apostle's writing-down of the book of Revelation, based on the clear prophecy of Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, which shows that the millennium will occur after Jesus' 2nd coming. Amillennialism was an error that didn't crop up until later. The scriptural truth of premillennialism was recovered in relatively modern times when a significant part of the church became interested again in eschatology, and believers could search the scriptures for themselves and see that premillennialism is true, as opposed to during the centuries when the amillennial RCC hierarchy kept the scriptures from believers and simply told them what to believe.

It's Jesus who shows the church in Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Revelation 5:10, and Revelation 2:26-29, that after his 2nd coming, he and the bodily resurrected church will reign on the earth for 1,000 years. For the entire book of Revelation is from Jesus to the church (Revelation 1:1, Revelation 22:16). He didn't tell the church about the millennium before Revelation because he waits to tell the church things until it is ready to hear them, and not before (John 16:12). What's sad is that even after he tells the church things, there can be some in the church who still can't hear them, but choose to reject them and replace them with man-made ideas (cf. 2 Timothy 4:3-4).

You're loaded with overload responses, but not according to knowledge!

Try understanding the New Covenant first, realizing God is not obligated to fulfill a covenant broken by Israel...remember what Jesus said in Matthew 23:37-39:
37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.
38 Behold, your house is being left to you desolate!
39 For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’”

You always overload your responses Bible2, which many come out of commentaries...and canned answers that you've saved (which is ok). However, try to deal with what's at hand first. Just because you overload the response hardly makes you correct.

 

[Bible2]

coraline quoted a book review in post 84:

Hill then closes the book by tying together some loose ends from earlier chapters. He gives a summary of his findings and points out how in the revival of chiliasm in elements of the radical reformation, the same issue of a retreat from the heavenly abode was confronted and was solved by introducing the idea of soul sleep.

Premillennialism per se (which is correct) in no way requires the mistaken idea of "soul sleep".

Only the physical bodies of the dead in their graves are euphemistically "asleep" (1 Thessalonians 4:13; 1 Corinthians 15:18,51). And only their dead, physical brains are without any thoughts (Ecclesiastes 9:5, Psalms 6:5, Psalms 115:17, Isaiah 38:18a). For the soul is distinct from the body (1 Thessalonians 5:23). And the soul can remain alive even when the body is dead (Matthew 10:28a). And the soul can remain conscious outside of the body, whether the body is still alive (2 Corinthians 12:2-4) or has died (Revelation 6:9-10).

So the souls of the dead remain conscious, either in heaven with Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:8, Philippians 1:21,23, Revelation 6:9-10, Luke 23:43,46, Acts 3:21) or in fiery punishment in Hades (Luke 16:22-24). At Jesus' 2nd coming, he will bring with him from heaven all the souls of all obedient believers who have ever died (1 Thessalonians 4:14). And they will descend to the earth where the graves of their bodies are, and their bodies will be resurrected into immortality at that time (1 Thessalonians 4:16; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52-53, Revelation 20:4-6).

Sometime after the subsequent millennium and Gog/Magog rebellion are over (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39), the souls in Hades will be bodily resurrected, judged, and cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:12-15), which will be the 2nd death (Revelation 21:8). This will be the death of both their resurrected bodies and their souls (Matthew 10:28). And yet, even though they will be dead in both body and soul, their spirits, which are distinct from their bodies and souls (1 Thessalonians 5:23), will remain conscious, and will be tormented along with the spirits of Satan and his fallen angels forever (Revelation 20:10,15, Revelation 14:10-11, Matthew 25:41,46, Mark 9:45b-46, Isaiah 66:24).

coraline quoted a book review in post 84:

Although not mentioned, one could also point out that contemporary dispensationalists evade this issue by dividing the people of God into God's earthly people (believing Jews) and heavenly people (Christians) and the millennium is only for the former.

Premillennialism per se doesn't require the mistaken ideas of dispensationalism.

Dispensationalism is mistaken because it sets up a mutual exclusiveness between the church and Israel, whereas the Bible shows that all genetic Jews in the church remain members of whichever tribe of Israel they were born into (Romans 11:1, Acts 4:36). And all genetic Gentiles in the church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29), and so have been grafted into its various tribes (cf. Ezekiel 47:21-23). So the entire church is the 12 tribes of Israel (Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10).

Also, dispensationalism is mistaken because it teaches a pre-tribulation rapture, whereas the Bible shows that Jesus won't come and gather together (rapture) the church until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8).

 

[Bible2]

ebedmelech said in post 85:

Try understanding the New Covenant first, realizing God is not obligated to fulfill a covenant broken by Israel...remember what Jesus said in Matthew 23:37-39:
37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.
38 Behold, your house is being left to you desolate!
39 For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’”

The millennium will be under the New Covenant, not the Old Covenant. Both covenants were made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34).

Regarding Matthew 23:38, it refers to the spiritual desolation of Jerusalem (Matthew 23:37) insofar as it rejects Jesus (1 John 5:12b, cf. Galatians 4:25), whereas Matthew 23:39 refers to the future salvation of all the unbelieving elect Jews in Jerusalem at Jesus' 2nd coming, when they will see him in person and believe in him (Zechariah 12:10-14, Romans 11:26-29).

Also, Matthew 23:38, like Matthew 27:51, didn't mean that the 2nd Jewish temple in Jerusalem had become spiritually desolate. For it remained holy even after Jesus' death and resurrection. That's why the church continued to worship God there (Luke 24:53, Acts 2:46, Acts 22:17). What the rending of the veil in Matthew 27:51 pictured was the opening of the holiest place in heaven to Christians (Hebrews 10:19-22, Hebrews 9:24) by the abolishing of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law's commandments (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17, Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Hebrews 7:18-27, Hebrews 10:9b) and the establishment of the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28) at the moment that Jesus died on the Cross for our sins (Hebrews 9:15-17, Hebrews 10:19-20, Matthew 27:50-51).

The rending of the veil in Matthew 27:51 didn't mean that God no longer dwelt in the 2nd temple (as in Matthew 23:21). That's why (again) the church continued to worship God in the 2nd temple, even after Jesus' death and resurrection (Luke 24:53, Acts 2:46, Acts 22:17).

 

[Giantbear]

Millennium reign was initiated by Christ when he opened the tombs of the Old Covenant Saints who were the ones crying under the altar of God in Abraham's bosom and were given white resurrection garments to wear and were taken up into the Holy Heavenly City New Jerusalem as the first fruits of the Great Harvest of God. These were the many captives of Ephesians 4:8 that were taken with Christ when he ascended up on high.

Salvation literally came to the Old Covenant Jews first as declared in Matthew 27:52-53 and in fulfilment of Ezekiel 37:12-14.

The promise was delivered to Abraham and his seed when they were ushered into the heavenly city to begin the millennium (eternal) reign. So the Kingdom and the city promised to Abraham who was sojourning to find is the already established heavenly country and not a country calling itself Israel based in the Middle East.

 

[shturt678s]

Premillennialism per se (which is correct) in no way requires the mistaken idea of "soul sleep".

The "Millennial" began at the Cross and continues to Rev.20:7 (Satan's personal loosing), however just as important is the signified "Tribulation" (Rev.7:14- spiritual battle, not physcial affliections and wars) that began at 70 A.D. (Rev.11:2; Lk.21:24) and continues to Rev.20:9, 10. My point with Bible2, no soul snoozing, ie, all awake somewhere - no one dies, dies. My second point not with Bible2, no Premillennialism, ie, we're about at the end of the "Millennial".

Only the physical bodies of the dead in their graves are euphemistically "asleep" (1 Thessalonians 4:13; 1 Corinthians 15:18,51). And only their dead, physical brains are without any thoughts (Ecclesiastes 9:5, Psalms 6:5, Psalms 115:17, Isaiah 38:18a). For the soul is distinct from the body (1 Thessalonians 5:23). And the soul can remain alive even when the body is dead (Matthew 10:28a). And the soul can remain conscious outside of the body, whether the body is still alive (2 Corinthians 12:2-4) or has died (Revelation 6:9-10).

So the souls of the dead remain conscious, either in heaven with Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:8, Philippians 1:21,23, Revelation 6:9-10, Luke 23:43,46, Acts 3:21) or in fiery punishment in Hades (Luke 16:22-24). At Jesus' 2nd coming, he will bring with him from heaven all the souls of all obedient believers who have ever died (1 Thessalonians 4:14). And they will descend to the earth where the graves of their bodies are, and their bodies will be resurrected into immortality at that time (1 Thessalonians 4:16; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52-53, Revelation 20:4-6).

And all in their graves will be resurrected one time (Jn.5:28, 29), ie, not 2nd or 3rd resurrection. :o

Sometime after the subsequent millennium and Gog/Magog rebellion are over (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39), the souls in Hades will be bodily resurrected, judged, and cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:12-15), which will be the 2nd death (Revelation 21:8). This will be the death of both their resurrected bodies and their souls (Matthew 10:28). And yet, even though they will be dead in both body and soul, their spirits, which are distinct from their bodies and souls (1 Thessalonians 5:23), will remain conscious, and will be tormented along with the spirits of Satan and his fallen angels forever (Revelation 20:10,15, Revelation 14:10-11, Matthew 25:41,46, Mark 9:45b-46, Isaiah 66:24).

Premillennialism per se doesn't require the mistaken ideas of dispensationalism.

Dispensationalism is mistaken because it sets up a mutual exclusiveness between the church and Israel, whereas the Bible shows that all genetic Jews in the church remain members of whichever tribe of Israel they were born into (Romans 11:1, Acts 4:36). And all genetic Gentiles in the church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29), and so have been grafted into its various tribes (cf. Ezekiel 47:21-23). So the entire church is the 12 tribes of Israel (Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10).

Also, dispensationalism is mistaken because it teaches a pre-tribulation rapture, whereas the Bible shows that Jesus won't come and gather together (rapture) the church until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8).

Old non-dispensationalist and non-pre-premillennialist, however amillennialist, Jack

 

[Bible2]

Giantbear said in post 91:

Millennium reign was initiated by Christ when he opened the tombs of the Old Covenant Saints who were the ones crying under the altar of God in Abraham's bosom and were given white resurrection garments to wear and were taken up into the Holy Heavenly City New Jerusalem as the first fruits of the Great Harvest of God.

The original Greek word (egeiro, G1453) translated as "arose" in Matthew 27:52 can refer to recently dead people's bodies being resuscitated back to mortal life, like Jesus "raised (egeiro)" the recently dead Lazarus (John 12:1), who was one of Jesus' followers (John 11:11, cf. John 15:14), back to mortal life, by crying out with a loud voice (John 11:43-44). The dead saints who were raised sometime later when they heard Jesus cry out with a loud voice on the Cross (Matthew 27:50-52, John 5:25), and who came out of their graves after Jesus' resurrection (Matthew 27:53), could have also been recently dead followers of Jesus. Their bodies were resuscitated back to mortal life, like happened with Lazarus (John 12:1). For the resurrection of Jesus' followers into immortal bodies won't happen until his 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), which won't happen until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

The 3 stages of a harvest are firstfruits, main harvest, and gleaning, which can typify 3 resurrections: 1. the past, firstfruits resurrection of Jesus only (1 Corinthians 15:20,23); 2. the future resurrection of the entire church at his 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:23,52; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), which will occur immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 and right before the millennium (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6); and then 3. the resurrection at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15), which will occur sometime after the millennium and the subsequent Gog/Magog rebellion are over (Revelation 20:7-15, Ezekiel chapters 38-39).

Even though the Old Covenant saints haven't been resurrected yet, they're still now part of the church in heaven (Hebrews 11:13-16, Hebrews 12:22-24), for now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6). And 1 Peter 4:6, 1 Peter 3:18c-19, and Ephesians 4:9 show that there was a post-resurrection descent of Jesus into Hades to preach the fulfillment of the gospel (of 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) to the souls of the dead in Hades, after which preaching, Jesus ascended into heaven with all the souls of those in Hades who had died in faith (Ephesians 4:8-9, Hebrews 11:13-16, Hebrews 12:22-24).

Giantbear said in post 91:

The promise was delivered to Abraham and his seed when they were ushered into the heavenly city to begin the millennium (eternal) reign. So the Kingdom and the city promised to Abraham who was sojourning to find is the already established heavenly country and not a country calling itself Israel based in the Middle East.

Jesus will physically reign on the earth during the 1,000 years, for the 1,000 years will begin after his 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), when he will physically land on the earth and rule it from Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:4-21). And because Jesus will reign physically on the earth during the 1,000 years, so will the physically resurrected church, for the physically resurrected church will reign with Jesus during the 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6). And so in Revelation 5:10, the reference to the church reigning in the future "on the earth" includes the 1,000 years. Also, in Revelation 2:26-29, the reigning of the church physically over the nations can refer to the 1,000 years. There's no reason to exclude the 1,000 years from Revelation 5:10 or Revelation 2:26-29, just as there's no reason to exclude the earth from Revelation 20:4-6.

Also, the church will reign forever on the new earth. For the church will reign forever in New Jerusalem (Revelation 22:5, Revelation 21:10 to 22:5), which will descend from heaven to a new earth (Revelation 21:1-3, Revelation 21:10) sometime after the future millennium and subsequent events are over (Revelation 20:7 to 21:3).

Giantbear said in post 91:

The promise was delivered to Abraham and his seed when they were ushered into the heavenly city to begin the millennium (eternal) reign.

There are at least 8 scriptural reasons to read the 1,000 years of Revelation 20:2-6 as not beginning until after Jesus' (never fulfilled) 2nd coming in Revelation 19:7-21.

First, this is in accord with how the rest of Revelation chapters 6 to 22 are in chronological order, insofar as the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 will begin with the events of the 2nd through 6th seals, occurring in the order shown in Revelation 6:3-14. After the events of the 6th seal, Revelation 7 will occur. Then the 7th seal will be unsealed and out of it will come the tribulation's 7 trumpets (Revelation 8:1-6). Then the events of the first 6 trumpets in Revelation 8:7 to Revelation 9:21 will occur in the order shown there. Then Revelation 10 will occur. Then the literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign will occur, which time period is shown from 4 different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 14:9-13).

Then the 7th trumpet will sound, announcing the legal end of the Antichrist's reign (Revelation 11:15). Out of the 7th trumpet's heavenly-temple opening will come the 7 plagues of the 7 vials (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1), the tribulation's final stage. Then the events of the 7 vials will occur in the order shown in Revelation 16. Jesus will return right after the 7th vial (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21), and he will marry the church at that time (Revelation 19:7). Then he will defeat the world's armies (Revelation 19:11 to 20:3) and reign on the earth with the bodily resurrected or changed church for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29; 1 Corinthians 15:51-53). Then the events of Revelation 20:7 to Revelation 22:5 will occur in the order shown there.

-

Second, the 1,000 years in Revelation 20:2-6 is when Satan will be literally bound with a chain, and cast into and locked within the literal bottomless pit, whereas currently he is walking about freely on the earth seeking whom he may devour (1 Peter 5:8). So the 1,000 years can't have started yet. But their beginning after Jesus' 2nd coming makes perfect sense (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Third, during the 1,000 years, Satan won't be able to deceive the world (Revelation 20:3), whereas currently he is able to deceive the world (2 Corinthians 4:4; 2 Corinthians 11:3,14,15; 2 Thessalonians 2:9-10, Revelation 12:9, Revelation 13:14, Revelation 19:20, Revelation 20:10). So the 1,000 years can't have started yet.

Fourth, the defeat of Satan in Revelation 20:1-3 is in chronological accord with the immediately preceding defeat of the Antichrist (the individual man aspect of the beast), and the False Prophet, and the world's armies, at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:19-21). Indeed, there is no chapter break between Revelation 19 and Revelation 20 in the original Greek manuscripts, so that Revelation 19:19 to 20:3 can be taken together as a unit, showing how every power of evil will be defeated at Jesus' 2nd coming.

Fifth, reading Revelation 20:4-6 as Jesus and the bodily resurrected church reigning first on the present (not the new) earth after his 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6) matches Jesus reigning first on the present (not the new) earth after his 2nd coming in Zechariah 14:3-21. For Zechariah 14:8-21 can't be referring to the new earth, because it refers to a temple building in Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:20-21), whereas there will be no temple building in New Jerusalem on the new earth (Revelation 21:22). Also, Zechariah 14:8-21 can't be referring to the new earth because it refers to surviving unsaved people from the present earth being forced to come up to worship the returned Jesus in Jerusalem during the millennium (Zechariah 14:16-19), whereas by the time of the new earth, all the unsaved people from the present earth will have already been cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:15 to 21:8).

Sixth, reading the first resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6 as the bodily resurrection of the church at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6) matches other verses which show that the bodily resurrection of the church will occur at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16).

Seventh, reading the first resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6 as the bodily resurrection of the church at Jesus' 2nd coming is in line with Revelation 20:5, which must refer in its entirety to only bodily resurrection. For not every dead person is going to be figuratively resurrected in the sense of becoming saved (Revelation 20:15). And Revelation 20:5 means that the rest of the dead (i.e. all the non-church dead of all times) will be resurrected in the same manner that the church will be resurrected in Revelation 20:4-6, but the rest of the dead won't be resurrected until sometime after the 1,000 years are over.

Eighth, reading the first resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6 as the bodily resurrection of the church at Jesus' 2nd coming is in line with Revelation 20:4, which shows that the people in the first resurrection will include those in the church who will have been beheaded by the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) for not worshipping him or his image, or receiving his mark on their hand or forehead. This refers back to the details of Revelation 13:4-18, which have never been fulfilled. So the first resurrection can't have happened yet. But its occurring at Jesus' 2nd coming, when he will defeat the Antichrist, makes perfect sense (Revelation 19:20 to 20:6; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-9).

 

[Bible2]

shturt678s said in post 92:

And all in their graves will be resurrected one time (Jn.5:28, 29), ie, not 2nd or 3rd resurrection.

Regarding John 5:28-29, it wasn't until later (cf. John 16:12) that Jesus showed the apostle John that there will be two (still-unfulfilled) bodily resurrections separated by 1,000 years (Revelation 20:5). John 5:28-29 can include both of these, for the original Greek word translated as "hour" doesn't have to mean a literal hour, but can refer figuratively to any period of time. For example, the last "hour" of 1 John 2:18 (Greek) has been going on for the last 2,000 years. So the "hour" of everyone's still-future bodily resurrection (John 5:28-29) can easily span over a 1,000-year period (Revelation 20:5).

Also, at both the first and 2nd resurrection, some will undergo "the resurrection of life", while others will undergo "the resurrection of damnation" (John 5:29). For the first resurrection, at Jesus' never-fulfilled 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16), before the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6), will be of all those who became Christians (1 Corinthians 15:21-23). And some of them will lose their salvation at the 2nd coming (e.g. Luke 12:45-46), so that their resurrection will be a "resurrection of damnation" (John 5:29), a resurrection "unto shame and everlasting contempt" (Daniel 12:2), because of such things as unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29), unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30), or apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8).

The 2nd resurrection, at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15), after the future millennium and subsequent events are over (Revelation 20:7-15), will include all those of all times who never became Christians, and all those who became Christians during the millennium (Isaiah 66:19-21). At the great white throne judgment, those Christians (of all times) who will lose their salvation, and so will have their names blotted out of the book of life (Revelation 3:5), might be cast into the everlasting punishment of the lake of fire along with all non-Christians (Revelation 20:15,10, Matthew 25:41,46, Revelation 14:10-11, Mark 9:45-46).

 

[shturt678s]

The thousand years can be literal.

Revelation is almost entirely literal, for it's unsealed (Revelation 22:10), meaning it shouldn't be difficult for saved people of any time to understand it if they simply read it as it's written: chronologically and almost-entirely literally.

Literal? Rev.1:1, "which God gave to him for him to show.....and he signified (them),...." The verbs agree in meaning with apokalupsis, -- deiksai and eide: This revelation Jesus showed; signified its meaningl all that comprise it John saw.

The few parts of it that are symbolic are almost always explained afterward (e.g. Revelation 1:20, Revelation 17:9-12). And Revelation's few symbols not explained afterward (e.g. Revelation 13:2) are usually explained elsewhere in the Bible (e.g. Daniel 7:4-7,17).

Just as Jesus' 2nd coming in Revelation 19:7 to 20:3 will be fulfilled almost entirely literally, so the events of the preceding tribulation in Revelation chapters 6 to 18 will be fulfilled almost entirely literally. Also, the millennium in Revelation 20 will be literal, and will begin after Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Zechariah 14:3-21), when he will reign on the earth with the bodily resurrected church for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11). After that, the events of Revelation 20:7 to 22:5 will occur literally.

See post 67.

Actually, you don't, just as you don't need more than one Bible chapter to describe, for example, the appointing of the 7 deacons (Acts 6:5-6).

Old Jack,

btw a few parts are literal

 

[interpreter]

Each of the 5 kingdoms founded by the 5 horsemen reign for a thousand years.

 

[FreeinChrist]

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